Borax Fluxing Multi Layers

[John R]

So gents I have pounded a lot of steel but never have forge welded, as in making laminated, or Damascus blades.

My question:    When stacking the layers, do you apply any flux prior to the heat?   Seems a little difficult to place the  borax between the un-forged layers.

Or do you heat and forge first, the apply the flux at forging temperature, the continue with forging and bending, continuing to apply the flux?

In reading Steve Sells book, it appears that he stacks the layers and does the first forging, then applies the flux as he bends and continues with the forging/layering process.

I am assuming that you have to be at forging heat to melt the  borax and have it flow.

Thanks!

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

Why would you assume that?  It's mentioned many times that you generally want to apply the borax as soon as it will melt and way below forge welding temperature. As a liquid it can flow by capillary action between layers.

[Frosty]

John: You're getting your terminology a little mixed up or perhaps don't have a handle on it yet. 

What do you mean by "unforged" layers? Also you ask about forging the bending and forging. 

If you're talking about forge Welding, it doesn't work like that. You don't "place" flux between layers, well most of the guys don't, you apply it at low orange and it is drawn between layers by capillary action, just like blood between microscope slides.

You then bring it to WELDING heat with enough soak time to make sure the billet is to welding temp all the way to the center. Set the weld with dead blows from a heavy hammer. Do NOT hit it hard you can shear or bounce the layers apart.

Once set you brush, flux and return it to the fire. When at welding temp with proper soak time you repeat the setting step but you can hit it a LITTLE harder.

Repeat, brush, flux, heat&soak refine the weld again.

Now you can start cutting, folding and welding to multiply the layers. Do the primary weld as described above first though.

This has been discussed repeatedly and can be found in the forge welding section of the forum. Doing a little reading here will answer most any question you will come up with. It'll also give you a handle on the jargon, all technical languages are to allow people to discuss craft subjects without having to describe every other term. Just knowing what a term or word means will often answer questions and it'll help you ask good questions and understand the answers. 

I'm not blowing you off, I'd really like to see you succeed and there are things that will make it a lot easier. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[John R]

My question was:   Is borax applied to the stacked layers on the first heat, before forging?  Seems to me that a little flux drawn in by capillary action would be a good thing.

I understand fluxing as you go when bending and forging.

Searching?  Yea, I know how to search, but a proper search and reading may take days.    I just wanted a quick answer from guys than know, to get my thoughts together before running through the archives which I intend to do.

 

"If you're talking about forge Welding, it doesn't work like that. You don't "place" flux between layers, well most of the guys don't, you apply it at low orange and it is drawn between layers by capillary action, just like blood between microscope slides.

You then bring it to WELDING heat with enough soak time to make sure the billet is to welding temp all the way to the center. Set the weld with dead blows from a heavy hammer. Do NOT hit it hard you can shear or bounce the layers apart."

 

Yep, my thoughts exactly.

 

"I'm not blowing you off, I'd really like to see you succeed and there are things that will make it a lot easier. "

Yea, a guy that speaks my language.  

 

Great site here guys, I see myself spending a bit of time in the archives.

 

I am putting the forge shed plans together, so it will be some time before I actually start back into blade forging.  I have a forge, 4 anvils, dozens of tongs, dozens of hammers, and about 400 pounds of good coal just waiting.  I took a long break from blacksmithing due to a divorce, a move, job changing, and all the time consuming thing you divorced guys know about.  Now I am retired and have time to play with the  tools.

 

[Jclonts82]

You could put a pinch, literally a very light sprinkle on each plate before you stack the next one on top of it. You have to keep the billet stacked 'upright' so it doesn't fall out the sides if you try this way. I have tried, didn't have any problems, but I can't say for certain that it helped any...

I usually heat until I see some hint of color in the billet, take it out and dust with flux, if using laundry borax it will swell/foam with heat, then melt into a film over the surface. 

You COULD also try to do a molten borax dip before heating... I also tried that, but in the end THAT was messy, difficult, and took a long time to melt enough borad (3? Lbs) to be able to dip.

 

I say stack and wire or weld your layers, heat until black/ barely red then take out and flux quickly so its not exposed to too much atmospheric oxygen and put it right back in. I sometimes take the whole thing out when its approaching welding temp, quick brush and light re-flux if its a thicker billet to get as much crud outta there as possible. 

 

just give the 'ole try, its what I did in the end. Happy I did. 

[ThomasPowers]

I'm sorry but in forge welding billets since 1984 I don't recall ever forging a billet before forge welding the billet.

Can you tell us what forging you plan to do before forgewelding?

[John R]

 

I'm sorry but in forge welding billets since 1984 I don't recall ever forging a billet before forge welding the billet.

Can you tell us what forging you plan to do before forgewelding?

Lighten up Thomas, a little mix up in my wording.   I realize you gents have a lot of experience but you do not have to take the attitude road.

 

I went back and read Steve's writings on fluxing.

Build the stack, heat, apply flux, then more heat and forging.

 

Ah Ha!    Now I see says the blind man.  Sometimes I skim written material instead of paying attention.

 

Thanks to all.

 

 

You could put a pinch, literally a very light sprinkle on each plate before you stack the next one on top of it. You have to keep the billet stacked 'upright' so it doesn't fall out the sides if you try this way. I have tried, didn't have any problems, but I can't say for certain that it helped any...

I usually heat until I see some hint of color in the billet, take it out and dust with flux, if using laundry borax it will swell/foam with heat, then melt into a film over the surface. 

You COULD also try to do a molten borax dip before heating... I also tried that, but in the end THAT was messy, difficult, and took a long time to melt enough borad (3? Lbs) to be able to dip.

 

I say stack and wire or weld your layers, heat until black/ barely red then take out and flux quickly so its not exposed to too much atmospheric oxygen and put it right back in. I sometimes take the whole thing out when its approaching welding temp, quick brush and light re-flux if its a thicker billet to get as much crud outta there as possible. 

 

just give the 'ole try, its what I did in the end. Happy I did. 

Now JClonts reply is exactly what I was looking for!   

A dust coat makes sense.  I will avoid the molten borax method, sounds like trouble.

[Buzzkill]

John,

This forum is read by a lot of people.  Even if we understand what you mean, other people who read the forum may not.  Some of the terms have a specific meaning and if we conflate terms then it gets very confusing to others.  There are differences between forging and forge welding in both the desired outcome and the temperatures used.  When forge welding we are typically using a significantly higher temperature than we would be forging at, and we're just trying to get all the pieces stuck together so that we have one solid piece of steel.  We're not really trying to manipulate the shape of the steel at this point.  When we forge we will usually lower the temperature and move the metal into the desired shape.  We don't do that until we're reasonably sure that we have created one solid piece of steel.  Attempting to forge before successfully forge welding will cause your billet to separate (delaminate) and you'll have to start over.

[Frosty]

John: Repeating the same thing expecting different results is Einstein's definition of . . . If your time is too valuable to bother reading the SPECIFIC section of IFI or the book you already have regarding what you wish to know they why are you asking us? Obviously our knowledge and experience isn't nearly as valuable. 

Seriously, we've told you repeatedly in THIS thread to clean up your terminology and you can't be bothered. If you're so sloppy in basic communications you won't or can't use the right terminology then I don't have much hope you'll be meticulous enough making billets.

Show me you're worth spending MY time on and I'll get back.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I teach blacksmithing classes fairly often. My requirements are that: You listen and follow instructions, You are safe around other people with red hot steel and that You are safe around yourself with red hot steel.

You can't ask questions and expect to get a useful answer if you don't have a language in common . Establishing what you are trying to say instead of what you did say is a valid process in my opinion---especially here where many people are not native english speakers and some only post through translation programs.

I'm sorry that you felt your time was more valuable than mine. If I can't offer useful information to you I shall try to avoid offering any to you in the future.

[John R]

Well gents this forum is a little to high handed for me, a lowly peon.

I will log out and let all of you enjoy the forum without my interruption.

[Kevin Olson]

John R. Hang on man. To all the posters, remember the thread by Glen dealing with newbies asking guestions. The experienced must pass the knowlege forward.  To John R.  Do research on this forum. Dont get upset if someone seems to be giving you grief. It may just be the way it reads to you. There's alot of good people here. We're here to help and not to kick you out of the blacksmith brotherhood.