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Cost of Gas vs Coal?????


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I tried doing a search first and did not really find the answer I was looking for and the one link in the sticky threads was broken So I will ask it here. I'm looking at getting my first forge. But I am stuck on what type to get. What I have seen so far in my research is gas forges are typically cheaper to buy. However, I have been told propane can be more expensive compared to coal. And coal forges to buy are more expensive to buy new but the fuel is cheaper. I'm trying to get to forging in the least costly and most efficient way possible.

What is everyone experience with the cost of buying and operating a gas forge vs a coal forge?

Some factors that i'm trying to take into consideration for myself are the following;

  • Can get propane filled locally
  • Coal is about 2.5 hours away at $12/ 50# bag
  • Gas forge takes up less space in the workshop
  • Gas has no smoke
  • Coal is more traditional
  • Can fit larger pieces in a coal forge setup

As for what I would intend to make would mostly be small ornamental stuff, cooking utensils, hammers, blades, etc.

 

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It's hard to give any definitive answers without knowing your shop set up.

Yes propane is easier to obtain but in my experience it isn't as efficient as coal for BTU hrs produced. I can get a lot more forging in with 12 dollars worth of coal than 12 dollars worth of propane and propane here is 1.39 a gallon.

When you say gas has no smoke, that's true but it produces copious amounts of CO which will kill you and others without adequate ventilation. That is where your shop set up comes into play. I would never run our propane forge in an attached shop/garage to the house.

Yes you are more limited to the shape and size of stock you can work in a propane forge. Solid fuel forges are easy and cheap to build.

You might want to read through these threads.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/64-solid-fuel-forges/

https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/65-gas-forges/

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Militant 83,

Welcome aboard, and thank you for listing your general location in your profile. Knowing from where you hail makes a big difference in the quality of responses you will receive.

While I am not best qualified, being out here on the "West" Coast, I would say a gasser is a good way to go if you just want to buy the whole kit, and get to it.

Others will chime in soon enough - patience though, as some may be indisposed at a barbecue, or perhaps out on the range.

You mentioned smoke, and if you have "modernist" neighbors with friends in code enforcement, smoke can certainly attract the bugaboo.

On the other hand, I love to burn carbon, and one can always consider coke, as well. Coke has its own advantages and challenges.

I am in the process of designing an ersatz gss forge, and eventually will build a ribbon burner.

This place is teeming with build it yourself fanatics.

Therefore, you must be clear about your preference to purchase a turnkey kit, or willing to build something like a "JABOD", a "55" forge, etc., or any of the numerous member-designed gassers.

Again, welcome,

Robert Taylor

 

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Thanks, and yes I have lurked a little bit and found out from others mistakes that listing where you are from can be very beneficial to those replying to your post.  As of right now i'm wanting a turnkey set up..If I had my new electrical ran in my garage so I could run my welder I wouldn't be opposed to building. But who knows when I will get around to that and I want to start forging.  My neighbors don't complain about my wood burner so who knows if they will even notice. I would not be forging everyday either. More like a weekend warrior.

 

It's hard to give any definitive answers without knowing your shop set up.

Yes you are more limited to the shape and size of stock you can work in a propane forge. Solid fuel forges are easy and cheap to build.

I am in a detached 2 car garage with windows for ventilation and of course a garage door in the warmer months. If I was to go the solid fuel route I was thinking of piping it in to the flue of my wood burner that I already have in place.

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Hey, you got a welder so  might as well build one. No need to spend hundreds on something you can make yourself. 

In your situation I would go with a gas forge because of the distance to buy the coal and the ventilation in the garage which will never be enough . People with coal forges either have a chimney directly on top or forge outside like me.

Be aware that coal burns hot enough to melt stainless steel so always keep an eye specially when doing small and thin pieces of stock.

You could build a gas forge using an empty oxygen bottle, with both ends opened it's big enough to fit swords.

 

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Welcome aboard MIlitant, glad to have you. Both types of forge have good and bad points to consider.  Fire byproducts are significant in any kind of fire. As said, CO is insidiously dangerous and cumulative, while not actually toxic it is a killer. Coal smoke is not only annoying to the neighbors but not only contains CO but things that actually are toxic. Lots of the sulfur compounds are pretty toxic and there are whatever other chemicals that were fossilized with the plants. 

If you just want to get going at the anvil then I highly recommend a bean can or 2 brick forge. A Bernzomatic soldering torch will make enough heat to do good work in a forge that size.

You don't need a welder to build a forge of any kind. My minimum equipment list (MEL) would be: tape measure, square, hack saw, hand drill & bits, wrenches or pop rivet gun and rivets. Maybe tin snips and a saber saw but you can do without. Were I building a 55 forge the saber saw would be HIGH on my MEL.

At $12/50 lbs. I'd be hard pressed to not save up for a few bags and make the drive or take a bus, the driver will help you load your loot in the bus's basement. (Cargo space.)

Propane is easy, it's available everywhere and the heat in a gasser is reasonably even over the forge chamber so things like twists, turning scrolls and heat treating blades is easier, especially to judge temp by eye as it's visible.  Start up and shut down are easy peasy, light a piece of paper and crack the valve open, in a few minutes you're ready to work. Shut down is turn the valve off and make sure nothing flammable is very close. Off is off, solid fuel forges can stay lit for a while or till the shop is gone.

Just got back in from organizing the wood shed and supervising a fire wood delivery. Now to continue.

Detached is GOOD but you ca NOT rely on windows and the overhead door to keep the CO cleared out. I like a couple window fans aimed out the closest window and one that provided cross ventilation open. CO is lighter than air so it'll collect high in the garage, shop, etc. an eave vent fan is a good thing.

Uh, NO you can NOT plumb your coal stack through ANY OTHER stack, it's a combination guaranteed to soot AND creosote right up. Different stack is a must. Side draft is as far as I've seen THE way to go for getting smoke out. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

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I'm a bit surprised by your research as a coal forge can be built for FREE; but a decent propane forge does have some costs associated with it.

However if you are going to buy a forge go with propane. However why would winter be a more suitable time to kill yourself than summer?  I forge with the 2 10'x10' roll up doors open year round---they are at opposite ends of the shop along the general path of the wind where I am at and I only pull them down a bit when the winds are blowing hard enough to blow over anvils in the shop.  You can probably get away with having a GOOD CO monitor or several of them. The nice thing about coal smoke is that you KNOW it's nasty and shouldn't be breathing it.  A propane forge is a silent killer!

Now why propane?  The learning curve is much simpler as you are learning to smith without having to also learn the care and feeding of a coal fire at the same time.  You are much less likely to destroy pieces in a propane forge than a coal forge. (It can be done; I've seen a few pieces melted in propane forges. But it's much rarer!)

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Welcome aboard MIlitant, glad to have you. Both types of forge have good and bad points to consider.

Well having to create its own stack might just be the breaking point on the coal then.  I deffinitely dont want to do anything un-safe but im also not wanting to spend the cash running a new stack especially not 10" like it should be. Might just start with gas througout the winter and build a small coal that can be rolled outside in the warmer weather. Id much rather toss in a couple ventilation fans in my gable ends to  increase ventilation than run a ton of pipe for a stack. 

Can anyone tell me what kind of lifespan they are getting on a 100 lb tank and how frequently you are using your gas forge?  Propane her will run me about 2.49/gal

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Find a cheap source for fuel and build a forge to use that fuel. Sharing a chimney is NOT a good idea. Nothing wrong with putting either type forge on a wheeled cart and moving it outside for use.

As the cost of a solid fuel forge, search the solid fuel forge section. JABOD Just A Box Of Dirt, a hole in the ground, and others are at zero cost, just needs a shovel or sharp stick as a digging implement. 

For a gas forge, please read about gas forges on that section of the site. Good information whether you buy or build.

 

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Militant ... to put it bluntly, coal forges stink... and not only because of the smoke.

Their only virtue is that they can be made to take large objects, as opposed to average gas forges that take only puny little stuff. 

The downside is that coal forge demand time to start to stop, to tender the fire, they are dirty and all in all ... they are inconvenient.

If you make large decorative or architectural stuff, you may be forced to have a coal forge unless you are game to build a larger than average gas forge. Possible but a challenge.

If you don't know what you will be doing, start with a gas forge and see how you go. A match, a piece of paper and you turn the tap and you are forging ... well almost. 

The cost of making either can vary a lot. A coal forge can be made with no money if you appreciate working like a cave man. If you want a proper forge you need to spend money on blower, stack, steel and time. 

A gas forge can also be made with little money, not that I have ever made one, but there is a lot of info here to make one with scrap, and burners with plumbing parts, not free but very cheap. 

Or you can invest  in a commercial gas forge. That would be my choice if I had to start again. Sure gas cost more than coal, if you can find coal. The anti-coal brigade is out there hard at work. Eventually they may win and coal will be a sin to use punishable with public flogging. 

 

 

 

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Speaking as a fellow weekend-warrior, working-in-the-garage hobbyist blacksmith, I have to note that a forge burning charcoal or anthracite is practically smokeless. Coal smoke is really only an issue (and it's a BIG issue) when you're burning bituminous/soft coal or the like. I burn rice coal from Tractors Supply in a JABOD with no chimney or smoke hood, and the only significant smoke I get is from the kindling at startup. (I've got a big stand fan to clear that out, and then to help keep me cool while forging in hot weather.) With the garage door open, there's plenty of ventilation; I've worked like that with the temperatures down in the teens. 

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Yep ... LPG is expensive ... unless you buy autogas. Australias prices are as follows. 9Kg barbaque bottle $18 up to $25 depending where you buy. Autogas is 50c to 60c a litre. 

You can not fill a BBQ bottle at the servo but you can fill a forklift tank at the servo. 

Just saying :)

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Yep ... LPG is expensive ... unless you buy autogas. Australias prices are as follows. 9Kg barbaque bottle $18 up to $25 depending where you buy. Autogas is 50c to 60c a litre. 

You can not fill a BBQ bottle at the servo but you can fill a forklift tank at the servo. 

Just saying :)

Tractor supply here in my town fills large propane bottles for $2.49/gal.. I may be able to get it slightly cheaper at my welding gas supplier. If I went the gas route I would purchase a 100lb tank which is rough 23-24 gal of propane roughly $60 each fill.

Do forge stack need to be insulated when going through structural areas like wood walls? I know a fire place or wood stove does. But I wasn't sure if the forge put off the type of heat as a wood stove or fire place.

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Lets just say you have to meet local code or you void your fire insurance---whether it needs it or not...

My woodstove in the house runs MUCH hotter in the chimney than my coal forge flue in the shop---the stainless pipe shows lovely temper colours in the several hundred degree range at a location above the woodstove that I can place my hand on with my forge's flue.

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Speaking as a fellow weekend-warrior, working-in-the-garage hobbyist blacksmith, I have to note that a forge burning charcoal or anthracite is practically smokeless. Coal smoke is really only an issue (and it's a BIG issue) when you're burning bituminous/soft coal or the like. I burn rice coal from Tractors Supply in a JABOD with no chimney or smoke hood, and the only significant smoke I get is from the kindling at startup. (I've got a big stand fan to clear that out, and then to help keep me cool while forging in hot weather.) With the garage door open, there's plenty of ventilation; I've worked like that with the temperatures down in the teens. 

How does the anthracite work out for you..just noticed it is only $6/ 40 lbs at tractor supply... able to reach forge welding temps and everything with it?

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Pretty sure the International Mechanical Code prohibits combining different solid fuel burning equipment into a single stack (Section 801.11 here: https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/document/code/449/8080993 ).  This code is law for a good number of locations in the states at least.  Think Ohio is still lagging behind many of the other states, so you will have to check your local code (also available on this site here: https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/collections/Ohio/2013  )

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Yes, indeed. The two main quirks are (A) it takes a lot to get lit and (B) it needs a lot of air. You take care of (A) by building a good fire of kindling (and charcoal, if you have it) and adding coal slowly, and (B) by using a mechanical blower to provide a constant blast. 

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Tractor supply here in my town fills large propane bottles for $2.49/gal.. I may be able to get it slightly cheaper at my welding gas supplier. If I went the gas route I would purchase a 100lb tank which is rough 23-24 gal of propane roughly $60 each fill.

 

Yep, I know you have it good there. Do you need to pay yearly rental for your larger propane tank?  

Here we are living the re-enactment of the Animal Farm, the farmer left town and the animals are in charge.  

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If you Google "stove pipe" you'll get many pages of suppliers wanting to sell you whatever you need. There are wall, ceiling and roof jacks to safely penetrate whatever's in the way. The roof flange (stove pipe flashing) is a MUST and has to be installed properly or the roof WILL leak. It's not a big deal but you MUST follow the instructions. Then there's the rain collar which deflects rain away from the penetration and roof flange.

Brick isn't that big a deal to penetrate, it just LOOKS tough. A 3/8" carbide drill bit and a 1/2" or less masonry chisel will let you remove the bricks in tact so you can replace them if you wish without changing the appearance.  Heck, you can even color match the aged mortar. They make wall jacks for masonry walls too. 

People have been doing this for centuries, it's old tech with all the products, tools, and how tos easily available. It just LOOKS daunting.

Probably the worst thing is having to decide exactly where you want the forge permanently, there's only a little room for moving once the stack's in place.

Check local code!

Frosty The Lucky.

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