MastaStan Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Really interesting thread. Hope you achieve your goal. Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 13 hours ago, Randell Warren said: Yessir. Done and done. I was also told later the stove heats erratically (not my stove). definitely going with my own stove and a pan of sand this next go. I have nearly a ton of store-bought sand leftover from some masonry work on my parent's house, will that work? A ton is a bit much unless you have a REALLY big oven. Yeah, mason sand is perfect. I think that's a brass wrap on the spine. Kind of dressy for a blade you don't want to finish isn't it? It's like putting spinners on a rusted out beater car. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Have you tried a file on the edge? All is for not if you don't have the hardness of edge you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzelik Hammar Posted September 9, 2017 Author Share Posted September 9, 2017 3 hours ago, Frosty said: Kind of dressy for a blade you don't want to finish isn't it? It's like putting spinners on a rusted out beater car. Frosty - If I thought it was going to turn out pristine and gorgeous, yeah, but it will be beaten and slightly ragged like most first attempts I make. Should fit the look I want nicely. Mr. Stevens - I am going to re-heat and fix some issues, then re-treat it with the sand suggested by Frosty. It skated pretty well after the quench, but cooking it softened it up, it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 You can always heat a block of steel and lay the spine on it untile the desired color reaches the blade. Then you know the spine is soft... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzelik Hammar Posted September 9, 2017 Author Share Posted September 9, 2017 That is a great idea. I'll try it if the sand didn't work out. The look I got for absconding with a large cast iron skillet and bag of sand and heading towards the forge area means I'm committed to trying this way already haha. My knife casserole! Definitely the strangest thing I've ever put in an oven. Feels like I'm trying to break someone out of jail in an old movie, but with a knife instead of file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 You aren't going to be able to control the temperature on a camp stove to start with AND the sand will heat from the bottom up.More is NOT usually better and this is a perfect example. A small cake pan and 1.5" of sand in the toaster oven is more than enough. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Another thing you can do to help keep tempering temps more consistent is to increase the thermal mass of the oven. When I'm tempering blades, I try to do 3-5 at a time to minimize my electric bill. This means opening the oven a number of times as I heat and quench each blade, then walk from the shop to the kitchen. What I've don is to put 10-12 pieces of steel ranging from 1/2" thick angle iron, 1" thick pieces of 4x4s and a few blocks ~ 3x3x4. The last time I tempered some blades I opened the stove a few times and checking the temp with my laser temp gun, it never varied more than 10-15 degrees. On a related note, if I have any warpage after the quench, I clamp the blade between thick pieces of angle iron and this not only adds to the thermal mass, but usually takes care of the warp in the first tempering cycle. ~billyO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzelik Hammar Posted September 10, 2017 Author Share Posted September 10, 2017 Oh, not using a camp stove. Using a preheated and thermometer checked house oven. It turned out perfect! The skillet was the only thing I was allowed to take, so I used what I could. 1 hour 20 at 450 (figured the sand and skillet would take time to get to temp so I added twenty minutes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 How'd it turn out? Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzelik Hammar Posted September 10, 2017 Author Share Posted September 10, 2017 Great! A fairly solid bronze-ish. It will lighten up some when I attach the spine trim, but I'll keep the edge in water and I think it will be ok. I pulled it all the way back to working temp and beveled it better and fixed a minor warp from the first go. Then back to non magnetic and quench in oil again. Much cleaner, but still have the rustic look I want. Also ran the copper for the spine through the forge to spread it out and get it ready. Test fit looked amazing. Can 't find my solder for the life of me but they sell it at work so that's not terrible. Working on figuring out how to turn copper tubing or a copper battery plate into a nice big pin to fit in the handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Don't mess with the battery plate it's pretty contaminated. 3/16" is a good pin diameter. Turning tubing or plate into round is problematical. Casting is . . . casting with all the dangers and procedures necessary to get good results. Copper LOVES oxy and isn't the easiest thing to cast on a good day. By copper tubing I assume you mean copper plumbing? You might try forge welding it into a billet and drawing it out to rod. Wire brush the inside till it's shiny and flatten it with just a SPRINKLE of flux. Bring it to bright red heat and gently hammer it together. Clean fold, repeat till you have something you can forge into pin stock. Ron Reil played with forge welding copper quite a bit when he discovered how easy it was. OR so he said. I gave it a lash about that time and it does weld pretty easily. I haven't done it in a long LONG time but I don't think it got harder. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzelik Hammar Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 I was thinking about trying that, basically. You cut me off at the post before I could ask about it! I was still doing through posts to see if someone mentioned copper forge welding and hasn't found anything yet, and I don't risk the wrath of the curmudgeons without at least poking around a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 for other information on solid phase welding of non-ferrous metals you may want to research mokume gane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzelik Hammar Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 That is amazing. The Wikipedia article makes it seem extremely complex, but fascinating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 read up on it on ifi too. You can even experiment on it using US layered quarters to make a billet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzelik Hammar Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 Current quarters or older stock? I know they have changed the composition a couple times. That seems like a fun project! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 look up the descriptions of people doing it! I haven't done it; but a couple of my students have so I was aware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 At the last Fall NEB meet, Bob Menard from Ball and Chain Forge in Portland, ME did a workshop on mokume gane using regular old quarters as a starter material suggestion for beginners. He welded a frame of thin mild steel around it (designed to collapse with weak tack welds) and heated it slowly in a propane forge. He said it could be done inside tube steel or otherwise out of direct heat in a coal forge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzelik Hammar Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 There are a remarkable number of threads that mention the process, including a BP, though it wasn't heavy on details. I put it on the list in my smithing journal of projects to (research and)try. I have to keep a list or my brains takes ideas out into the woods and they have "hunting accidents"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Good way to put it, my brain took a walk in the woods and had a hunting accident looking for that thought. doing quarter mokume remember to work it hot or the nickle gets really brittle and breaks, delaminates or goes looking for those thoughts of yours. Another cool trick I thought of later is to put braising or tig welding rod in the copper as you roll it up to make mosaic pins. A spring tenon tool is REALLY handy making pins. pick a piece of reasonably thick bar stock, say 3/4" x 34"+. Two pieces cut an inch or more long. align them and clamp a piece of paper, a business card is perfect between them. Now drill down the joint with the diameter drill of the rod or tenon you want to make. Dress the corners of the holes with a flap sander to ease the edges or they'll leave cold shuts. Don't be stingy with the bevel but don't get carried away. No bend up a spring and shank to fit the hardy or your vise. Put a piece of the same diameter stock in the hole to align the halves, clamp it tight and weld it to the spring. Now you have a spring swage that will finish your pins as well as reasonable without having rolls and drawing dies. So, you flatten your shiny clean copper pipe with a piece of oh say 0.045" nickle tig rod in the corner and weld it up. Put the piece in the vise with the corner sticking out of the vise 1/2" or so, it's not exact so fiddle to your find what works for you. Take two pair of pliers one in each hand, grasp the top edge of the Future Pin FP and roll it over. When you can't go farther with the pliers take it to the anvil and gently roll it up. Lay another piece of cool colored tig rod where the coil meets the flat and roll it again. Be careful not to EVER mix brass and silver, that makes silver solder and might just run out and make a puddle in your forge. Anyway, this technique is called, "Jelly Rolling" and makes for cool patterns. Oh once you have it rolled, heat, flux and swage it into a pin with your spring swage. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzelik Hammar Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 That sounds really fun! I don't fully understand it but with the terms I bet I can use some Google fu for more info.. I have an idea for a mokume project involving spent .45 brass with a copper pipe inside, then a tig rod core, think that would work? I'm trying to figure out what to put between the shells so there is no air gap (like using powder steel in canister Damascus) but currently drawing a blank. Say... 12 shells in 3 rows, each with the copper and Tig. If I can figure out the filler I might try this one my fire control gets better. Still adjusting to anthracite. My tuyere plate broke so I made a temporary one out of a cast iron comal, but it doesn't seal tight and my fire wanders as air escapes around the edges, 3-4 inches out from the tuyere itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 have you mudded the leaky area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzelik Hammar Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 I've been searching around the website here to see what to try. Search is not as useful when you don't know what phrase you are after. I figure some sort of fire-resistent paste exists, but not sure how to make one. Mostly been trying to make a new plate that fits properly, but its an odd oval so I keep messing up and it either falls in or doesn't fit. I keep getting distracted looking for replacement parts for my blower. Not knowing the names of the parts makes it quite frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 What kind of air grate are you making? A bar grate works really, much better than holes drilled or punched in a piece of plate. If you have a welder weld a couple tabs on the bottom that fit just inside the tuyere and it can't move. Forget what you see or hear on the intra webs a coal forge doesn't need any kind of refractory liner, damp earth from the garden or a ditch is perfect. NOT plaster, just damp enough to ram in place with a wooden mallet, end of a 2" x 4", etc. I made my duck's nest by laying a small soup, etc. bowl in the tuyere and ramming soil around it but just leaving it clear is fine. As Thomas suggests you can secure the grate by ramming DAMP soil, clay, etc. around it tight. Forget special stuff this is dirt, a little sand in the mix helps but it's just dirt. JUST damp enough it packs hard is perfect. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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