"How to watch a YouTube video" collaboration

[JHCC]

Life has taught me many bitter lessons. Not the least is "Never read the comments on YouTube videos and news articles."

[81pistolsfiring]

Being a probie or newbie whatever you wanna call my position. I am a grown adult and can tell the difference between bad advice and outright dangerous examples. It's all about understanding my own abilities. For example rigging up these elaborate propane burners for a forge is something I won't mess with. I am a firefighter so I can put one out, an explosion is not so easy. 

I am grateful to all the people on you tube who make an effort to share their knowledge and experiments. Any body can comment from a keyboard. For all you guys know I'm an ABS master smith pretending to be a newbie right NOW...yeah right I wish haha! 

[the iron dwarf]

there are many things you may not know are dangerous.

there is someone on youtube posting videos relating to blacksmithing and metal casting, his aim seems to be to get people an award, one notorious one involves melting ali scrap and he advises people to do things that can maim or kill.

if you dont know about it you may not know how dangerous his advice is

[ThomasPowers]

One of the reasons stated for why we don't have a "like" button on this site is that popularity does equal being right. (And I approve highly of this lack!)

[Frosty]

The problem as I see it is exemplified nicely by this very discussion. We all want to make as much good info available as possible, by good SAFE has to be #1 or I'm out. Anyway, the world stage now is social media and like always human nature is best described by Dunning Kruger. We see it constantly on Iforge, the guy saying I've never done this but here's how it's done. I'm constantly biting my tongue, (fingers?) when someone says, "Mikey, Frosty, etc. are the experts but this is what you need to do to tune your burner." some of these are from guys who have been around for a while. That's not taking specific issue with anybody it's just an example and the guys who do things differently. That's a good thing provided they have a clue. 

Human nature says you can't know you don't know anything till you know something. Philosophers have been saying this and similar for thousands of years, probably since grunts and snorts started to mean something besides a bug just flew up my nose. "All I know is that I know nothing." The more you know the more you know how little you know.

I'd LOVE to short cut the process but I'm pretty sure it's hard wired into our DNA or we'd still be picking nits off each other in trees. Everybody is right so far, at least I think so for values of right. The problem is delivery, new guys almost never read a FAQ or the stickies. Heck, I don't remember the last time I read a FAQ. I'm constantly reminding myself to read in the subject a while before asking questions and believe me I'm going NUTS. I'm finishing that seax Theo offered up in his blade collaborations, every time I look at that thing I have to add a couple items to my list of questions. Well OF COURSE I'd been grinding on it for a while before I realized on a gut level how little I know about grinding blades. Want a drill bit or lathe cutter sharpened or ground from a blank and I'm your guy. Blades. . .  Uh. . .

As much as I hate people who just point out what's wrong without offering solutions I'm afraid I can't do much else. Hopefully I'm adding some definition to the root problem so we CAN come up with something. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

"Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both yes and no."

[Frosty]

7 minutes ago, JHCC said:

"Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both yes and no."

Dwarves! 

[Glenn]

Youtube does not self correct. 

IForgeIron encourages folks to correct any mistakes that are found on the threads. This usually happens in the next post or two. Self correction and discussions make the information much more valuable.

 

[Everything Mac]

My 2p if I may.

Youtube is a double edged sword at best. Indeed I concur with much of what has already been said.

My main gripe that I see with all online content, not just videos, is presenting opinions as fact. And the apparent total lack of understanding of which is which.

"This is the "best" bla bla bla"
"It's an English anvil so it must be a Mousehole"
"you need sharp edges on your anvil"
"That's definitely a such and such brand of xyz"
"This is how you forge xyz"

There's a handful of youtube blacksmiths I enjoy. Some are entertaining, others are more educational. I think the more popular characters have a duty to further the craft and promote safety and education. If they don't know how to do something they should be making that perfectly clear. The issue is however the old you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Andy

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

49 minutes ago, Everything Mac said:

The issue is however the old you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Along with you can lead people to knowledge but you can't make them think.

[John in Oly, WA]

One of the basic problems with trying to educate people on how to know a good video from a bad is it requires common sense to distinguish between the two. And we all know common sense isn't.

I think it also requires the desire to do the research - delve in deep enough to learn the subject. And these days too many people are too focused on instant gratification. That doesn't play well with the idea of researching a subject.

[81pistolsfiring]

You guys remind me of my father who was is an old school mason. This must be like if bricklaying all the sudden became the popular with the masses and everyone regardless of experience knows everything before even laying their first brick. That would drive him nuts so I can only assume your frustration if being a smith has been your craft your whole life. 

I for one plan on respecting the craft and learning what I can from the people who know. It's hard to find them in person so that's why most of us flock to the computer. 

[rockstar.esq]

There are a lot of insightful comments here.  As I read the prescribed solutions, several thoughts jump to mind.

First off, I think the guild/trade/certification/license/registration approach is assumed to be a meaningful way to achieve quality assurance.  I strenuously disagree.  On the "white collar" side,MBA graduates run businesses into the ground every day.  Unethical people have no problem lying to an organization so they can gain credibility via membership.  

On the "blue collar" side, I've encountered scores of licensed tradesman who were total incompetents.  It mystifies me how people who accrued the necessary hours, and passed exams can be so incompetent but it happens all the time.

I suspect the reason this is happening is that it's a whole lot easier to set up a qualification rubric, than it is to police the membership.  As a result, there really are no organizations that guarantee the outcome of their members work.    Long before the internet diluted the value of information, we had "education" programs that rubber-stamped anyone willing to pay tuition and serve their time. 

Bringing back the exclusivity, elitist, and cloistered approach is how guilds lost ground in the first place.  It's rebuilding the wall that kept information and opportunity away from outsiders.

I think the "noise to signal" ratio has put the onus onto the individual to employ critical thinking.  As Thomas Powers pointed out, it's not always easy to learn what's true, but it's still possible.  Once we accept that responsibility, the accessibility of information becomes the greatest gift humanity ever shared.

 

 

[Frosty]

In my first post on this thread I worded an example badly. I said something like. "someone will say, Mikey and Frosty are the experts but this is what you should do" blah blah blah. Please NOBODY take this personally it was a bad example and not directed at anybody. I get carried away and it's been pointed out some folk could take that example as a direct shot at them. It wasn't. It was supposed to be a lead in to the Dunning Kruger effect. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[George Geist]

1 hour ago, rockstar.esq said:

 

First off, I think the guild/trade/certification/license/registration approach is assumed to be a meaningful way to achieve quality assurance.  I strenuously disagree.  On the "white collar" side,MBA graduates run businesses into the ground every day.  Unethical people have no problem lying to an organization so they can gain credibility via membership.

Rockstar with all due respect, that's not logical. Are you implying that somehow or another their education and training somehow makes them less qualified and competent than someone without? XXXX?

Yes unethical people can lie, but it's much harder to do if there's compulsory testing. Occasionally airplane pilots crash airplanes. Nonetheless I'd still prefer to fly with one who's tested, licensed and experienced.

 

Quote

  On the "blue collar" side, I've encountered scores of licensed tradesman who were total incompetents.  It mystifies me how people who accrued the necessary hours, and passed exams can be so incompetent but it happens all the time.

When it comes to them vs the amateur shade tree mechanic types you really don't want to keep score do you?

 

Quote

Bringing back the exclusivity, elitist, and cloistered approach is how guilds lost ground in the first place.  It's rebuilding the wall that kept information and opportunity away from outsiders.

Guilds are still going strong back in the old world as they have for centuries. USA didn't ever have too many of them anyway but the few we do have do great. American Bar Association comes immediately to mind. Screen Actors Guild is another. You belong to those organizations or you don't work right?

Tell me just what is so wrong about that? Many people purchase weapons to defend themselves, their families and their homes. There is nothing wrong with that. I see that as good. Many people wore their country's uniform at some point in their lives to defend their respective countries. That's a good, noble and honorable thing to do.

As far as people's trades, work, livelihoods, bread and butter. Their means of feeding their families. Why is protecting and defending that seen as a bad thing? I certainly don't see it that way.( but I am a Union thug to the core) What makes outsiders who are oftentimes no better than the barbarians invading Rome think they're entitled to anything?

Certifications, Licenses, Endorsements etc are all about earning one's place. It's really that simple. Unfortunately too many people aren't willing to earn anything. I have no use for such people.

George

[rockstar.esq]

George,

I think there are at least two parts to quality control.  Generating a product of quality, and actually monitoring the outcomes to control what's getting out the door.

As it stands certifications are largely permanent after they've been issued.  Few if any of these organizations are actively policing their own membership on an ongoing basis.  While I certainly see your point and agree with you about licensed pilots and so forth, I think you've chosen a fairly rare example of where ongoing scrutiny is part of keeping that title.

My issue is with the utterly blind faith society places in organizations that never have to prove their worth.  For example we can see declining job opportunities for college graduates.  If colleges were imbuing the students with knowledge and skill that employers needed, the situation would be reversed. They get away with it because society accepted the premise that certification is a proxy for suitability/quality.  Society also accepted their role as gatekeepers to prosperity which empowered them to raise tuition to where a lifetime of debt is the norm.

I started my apprenticeship in the electrical union and I'd be the first to say they take teaching seriously in a way that's profoundly different to colleges.  I very much believe they taught the best ways to do things, which prioritized productivity at work.  That being said, a staggering number of members were an utter embarrassment to the trade. They wouldn't occupy those jobs if the union wasn't protecting them.  I ruined my back earning my way in the trade while licensed drunkards slept through their shifts.  My experience is by no means unique.

Transparency, accountability, and competition are simple solutions that get little attention because they present insufficient opportunity for graft.  Modern management is geared towards avoiding obviously necessary work.  It's much harder to actually get out and verify that your people are maintaining the organizations standards.  It's much easier to collect dues and defend the odd incompetent on the grounds that every member is equal.  This cowardly and lazy approach devalues the true professional.  Excellent and knowledgeable professionals will always be in demand. 

There's absolutely no reason that a trade organization or guild couldn't be comprised of the very best professionals.  I believe many were founded on that principle.  Any large group of people will eventually require management.  The quality of that management is a function of how well it maintains those principles. 

I think critical thinking is the missing link here.

[VaughnT]

On 9/8/2017 at 11:51 AM, rockstar.esq said:

I think there are at least two parts to quality control.  Generating a product of quality, and actually monitoring the outcomes to control what's getting out the door.

As it stands certifications are largely permanent after they've been issued.  Few if any of these organizations are actively policing their own membership on an ongoing basis.  

My issue is with the utterly blind faith society places in organizations that never have to prove their worth.  

There's absolutely no reason that a trade organization or guild couldn't be comprised of the very best professionals.  I believe many were founded on that principle.  Any large group of people will eventually require management.  The quality of that management is a function of how well it maintains those principles. 

I think critical thinking is the missing link here.

 Amen!  Back in the day, I worked a job that required me to have a pistol on my hip all day long.... and I was certified by the two states I worked in.  I had to pass annual decertification training in one state, but not the other.  Was one better than the other?  No, because the company I worked for did the certification and was all too happy to "cheat" because they knew the state officials never bothered to look into it.  With the other state, not getting recertified meant you had employees that got their card when they were 25 and never had to re-up.  Now they're in their 60's, with shaky hands and bad eyes.... and still fully compliant with the law.

What would a guild accomplish in either situation?  It sounds like it would be a nice thing, but it would soon become a bureaucracy with all the chiefs and not enough indians.  Politics would soon start and favoritism/nepotism/cronyism would become the order of the day.  We can see how it happened in the unions and there's no reason to expect that a guild of some kind would change.  Things like the Screen Actors Guild don't assure standards; they only keep a stranglehold on the industry and force folks to either pay "dues" or not work.  Every b-rated movie with lousy acting, camera work and writing.... all produced by folks with SAG cards.

As to the OP's thoughts on the videos, I always look at the format first.  

Is the camera held stead on the anvil or other tool so you can see what's going on?  Or, are they jumping around with edit after edit, showing the smith as much or more than showing the work?  

Is there a lot of unnecessary jibber jabber, or is the verbiage only related to what is being done with the work?  

Sound Track ---  nothing makes me flip the channel like garbage music playing.  Are you trying to be cool or hip?  Do you think your selection of music will make you look cool?  If so, stop.  Be a DJ or be a blacksmith trying to show folks something.  If I wanted the nightclub experience, I'd go to a nightclub.

In my estimation Mark Aspery and Gary Huston have the best smithing videos on the internet.  While they have distinctive styles, they both place emphasis on the learning and teaching, and don't try to come across as something other than a smith spreading the gospel.  

[JHCC]

26 minutes ago, VaughnT said:

I had to pass annual decertification training

Umm...REcertification training?  

I can just imagine: "I'm sorry, Vaughn, but you just know too much for us to decertify you this year. Come back when you've forgotten more."

[jlpservicesinc]

I agree to disagree with the certification process.. I think for the most part it is a waste of time if it is propagating crappy non fitting or outdated information..  A certification is only as good as the guy or gal applying their trade..  Anybody can pass a test.. It becomes do they prefect their craft or simply fall into line with what everybody else is doing..   Certification can be a good way to start but after that it can fall apart.. 

What everybody else is doing doesn't mean it's right.. So you either work at changing it or you join the club and drink the cool aid.. 

I personally don't like to wear eye protection.. In nearly 40 years of blacksmithing 5X wearing PPE I've gotten metal in my eye which had to be removed at the hospital..    In that same time frame I have had to go to the hospital 2X while not wearing eye protection and in all the years of working I only wore PPE 5X and each time I got stuff in my eyes.. One could argue they were ill fitting or what have you.. Personally things happen just because..  Unless you are there, you ain't got a clue.. 
 

I don't condone nor do I suggest anybody else not wear PPE..And require it for all teaching/lessons.. I always wear hearing protection and now with the " Video series" I have on youtube I wear Eye protection but it's only because I finally found eye protection that works pretty decent.. At least decent enough not to get stuff in my eyes..  In the early videos on hinge making I don't wear any PPE..  

Personally I started making the "How to" videos because of the lack of good information posted and was lacking in content..  I couldn't find any really good video's on real blacksmithing other than the vintage ones..    (with that being said there are a few good smiths that take the time to put out good information but also found there was a lack of full content)..   

One of the largest problems with any of this stuff is:   Time is money..         To make a quality video it takes a lot of time and with the PIP it takes 2X the normal amount as it has 2 or more film tracks that have to be edited..  I also film in 3D which shows even greater detail.. These also get YOutubed but you have to have a 3D enabled TV or computer.. 

If one is invested in all the lighting, mic's, and cameras it is a huge investment..  Technology is updating constantly..   This plays into how much one can invest in equipment unless it becomes a full time job..    Personally I have found that there are thousands of objects to make, but there are only so many forging  techniques that need to be taught and once these instructional videos are produced there really isn't a need for more of them as all the skills are there.. It's just a matter of someone watching the videos and then practicing what was taught in the video to get good or even great..    So instruction vs entertainment  becomes a very large factor..

Anyhow,   Lighting is key but if one is into making professional type videos then it's really not a Youtube gig as its more serious than that..   Most people who are making quality Youtube videos are getting income from such ventures..     I have also found the really good videos are "Free" usually with no advertising.. This is because it's about content not revenue but I can see why it's such a strong draw..  it's passive income..   And now a lot of the free good ones have paetreon and advertising now.. 

As for my videos:   the lighting is terrible.. (there are no lights as it was filmed in the demo trailer in the middle of winter after my regular work so roughtly between 3pm and 5Pm when the sun is setting and 200ft from any electrical (the water is completely frozen in the tub with no heat in 2F weather.)..  2,  No story board:      I just fired up the forge with both cameras running and taped the whole process.. then edited out all the time spent at the forge heating/reheating the metal..       Every video was done that way but the knife video as I had to figure out how to tape the polishing and handle work this added substantially to editing and filming time..    

Personally I like the way the videos came out and is the reason why I posted them..   They are in no way perfect, nor production quality..  But they do give the information in a proficient and timely fashion...    

Besides that.. As pointed out in many other posts..  I just like to be different or difficult depending on subject.. 

That being said..  I don't care if the person is wearing PPE, is certified,  running shoddy equipment  as long as they know what they are doing and their skill set and the video shows that.. 

Good lighting, a story line and a complete saga is certainly extra helpful.. 

[Joel OF]

The style of presentation can make or break a YouTube video for me. I can't watch a lot of videos because the smith's presentation irritates me because they think it's all about them, and not the procedure their demonstrating.

Gary Huston on the other hand is great - his videos are an explanation of the process & without ego. Half the stuff he makes isn't really of interest to me, but I can actually listen to what he's saying because he's not being a clever clogs about it all.