Drego Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Hey folks. My my first post here so a little introduction is in order. Im just getting into the craft. I picked up a Majestic 2 burner propane forge and am quite happy with so far. I have only really been using it on one burner since it gets plenty hot it's just the one by its self. I don't have an anvil but am constantly on the lookout for one. In the mean time I'm using a ASO (Railroad track). I have a couple questions to start. 1. What are thoughts on using natural gas instead of propane to heat the forge? I believe natural gas gets hotter then propane. Although I'd have to crunch the numbers to see if filling propane tanks would be cheaper then using natural gas. 2. A friend of mine has 14 piston wrist pins from a Cummins ISX engine for me to use. The best I can find is that these are made from a Chromium, Molybdenum, Nickle alloy. I think this puts it in the 43xx class but am not sure. Has anyone worked with it before? They are big so I'd be cutting them in half at least. Thanks! Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew D Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Dennis, You can probably make some neat stuff from those wrist pins, however, you are going to find them a bear to forge. Alloy steal is made to be tough and resist the problems associated with being heated over and over. That type of steal just doesn't like to move very well under the influence of a hammer. Try a few and see what you think and report back. Then go find some mild bar stock and compare the difference. You can use natural gas, but the problem most of us face is it is under low pressure from your meter and doesn't have the volume or pressure you need to make a proper forge. Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 First of all is nothing wrong with natural gas. It'll work just fine but your forge may need to be plumbed a little differently. The steel it really just depends on what you had in mind for a project. What is it you're looking to do? George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Why am I thinking 'rolling mill' !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drego Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 Wow quick replies! Not looking to make anything in particular YET with them. Just wondering what they'd be like to forge if anyone has experience working with them. I get what Matthew is saying tho. I'm going to first try and cut one into lengthwise quarters and heat it up and see how it reacts to the hammer. Then I'll try another piece and heat it then let it cool (annealing?). Do that three times then see how it takes a hammer. I figure punches, would be a good starting point but that amount steel would make a lot of punches lol. My my shop is detached from the house. No natural gas in it yet but I want to hook up the infloor heating so I'll have to eventually run a gas line from the house to the shop. Thinking to my self so long as it's already there how bout running the forge of it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Actually propane has more energy per molecule than natural gas, a lot more. However natural gas works well if you have a high pressure line. (10 psi = 270 inches of water column. Household appliances work off of about 7 inches of water column....) Any burner would need to be reworked to switch fuels. They may be free and a good alloy steel but a LOT of work to make into usable sizes of stock. I would suggest slitting down the side and trying to spread and flattening a couple into slabs that you can hot cut---got a high alloy slitting chisel? (or to put it another way: free stock you have to hours if not days working into usable items is not free!) However they may make good trading material at conferences especially to people with large power hammers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drego Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: Actually propane has more energy per molecule than natural gas, a lot more. However natural gas works well if you have a high pressure line. (10 psi = 270 inches of water column. Household appliances work off of about 7 inches of water column....) Any burner would need to be reworked to switch fuels. They may be free and a good alloy steel but a LOT of work to make into usable sizes of stock. I would suggest slitting down the side and trying to spread and flattening a couple into slabs that you can hot cut---got a high alloy slitting chisel? (or to put it another way: free stock you have to hours if not days working into usable items is not free!) However they may make good trading material at conferences especially to people with large power hammers... Good point. I'm gonna try one out and see how it forges. All I've pounded on so far is rebar so I'm sure I'm in for an eye opener. But if it anneals well and forges well then score! If not then as you said maybe someone with a power hammer would be willing to trade fro so,etching else more my "size". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I recently picked up a cheap piece of 1-1/4" dia round bar of 4130 chrome moly steel to make some tools. What you'll find is that it takes a lot of force to move it when it is in thick sections, even when heated to the limits. In my case, I had to get out the true sledge to make decent progress--The 3 pound hammer was not getting me anywhere but the 2-handed 12 pound sledge got it moving at a reasonable rate but still not "fast". So..my advice for large sections is to get a friend as a helper to do the primary moving with a big sledge (assuming you don't have a power hammer or hydraulic press). Once most of the big moving is done you can switch to the one-man hammer and do the finish work. Will save you a LOT of time and frustration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Welcome aboard Dennis, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the Iforge gang live within visiting distance. RR rail isn't an ASO, even if you grind it into a London pattern. It IS an anvil, you're hammering hot steel on it. By all means take a few or more of those wrist pins, you'll find something good to do with them some day once your skills sets come up to the task. Even 1/4 sections would be a job of work for my power hammer, doable but a grunt. By all means cut one up and play with it it'll be good for the learning curve. Honest it will. And heck, who knows. While you CAN change a propane appliance to burn natural gas the chances it's practical are slim. Residential hookup would need something like a 1" supply line to support a 2 burner forge. Ask the gas company what it'll cost to make the connection. A naturally aspirated propane forge will need to be converted to a gun, even commercial gas isn't at high enough psi to drive a naturally aspirated burner larger than a kitchen range or water heater. A gas boiler is a gun and delivers typically less than 100,000 BTU/hr. Maybe almost 1/4 - 1/2 what ONE of my 3/4" T burners delivers. Tell the gas company you want about a million BTUs per hour worth of natural gas. You can burn propane for a few decades on what it'll cost to run the delivery line from the main, hook up, metering and professional installation of the forge. We're not trying to discourage you, honest. We're just offering the benefits of our mistakes so you don't have to repeat them. Setting yourself up for success in the beginning is a much better way to learn a new craft than jumping into things experienced folk would maybe watch a new guy try but probably not try themselves. Hmmm? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drego Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 Thanks for the insight. I'm not 100% saying I want to use the natural gas it's more like it's there so why not. But you seemed to answer the why not. Im going to swing by my buddies work tomorrow (Kenworth dealership/shop) and pick up the pins. I used to work there myself and they all like me there so they said I could have free reign on the scrap steel bin. Anything in particular I should be on the lookout for? Axles, springs, etc... Dennis excessive quote removed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 well what do you plan to make? Lots of good medium and higher steels available at such a location. This question is sort of like I'm getting ready to do some cooking and going to the store---what should I buy? Unfortunately a Semi shop will tend to have stuff that's a bit large to use on starter smithing equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drego Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 Tongs, punches, hooks, gonna try some leaf keychains. Basically anything I can practice building skills doing. Eventually when I'm comfortable in my skills I'd like to try and make a knife. Don't foresee it for a year or so but until then, just practicing. Would like to try forge welding too. Baby steps tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Frosty said: While you CAN change a propane appliance to burn natural gas the chances it's practical are slim. Residential hookup would need something like a 1" supply line to support a 2 burner forge. Ask the gas company what it'll cost to make the connection. A naturally aspirated propane forge will need to be converted to a gun, even commercial gas isn't at high enough psi to drive a naturally aspirated burner larger than a kitchen range or water heater. A gas boiler is a gun and delivers typically less than 100,000 BTU/hr. Maybe almost 1/4 - 1/2 what ONE of my 3/4" T burners delivers. Tell the gas company you want about a million BTUs per hour worth of natural gas. You can burn propane for a few decades on what it'll cost to run the delivery line from the main, hook up, metering and professional installation of the forge. Frosty The Lucky. That really just depends. At the fly by night horseshoeing school I attended back in my misspent youth there were all gas forges. Was one of the first places to have them. Old Mankel Horseshoers Specials with AC blowers on them. Was before atmospherics became widespread. Anyway, they were hooked up with permanent piping to the natural gas line running into the place. Deal he had with the gas company was that he paid one price on his bill no matter how much gas he used. For this reason he had no problem at all with us practicing all day and night. If those forges burned 24/7 he wouldn't have cared. I always assumed that the deal he had was something he negotiated with the gas company? Since then I've always used propane in my gas forges and honestly I've never been able to tell the difference. I've used gas cooking stoves with both kinds of fuel and have never been able to tell the difference there either. I'd say if the OP has some kind of deal that would make natural gas easier or cheaper for him then by all means go ahead and use it. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drego Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 Nope no special deals here. Just have it available but have to figure if the cost of NG is cheaper then propane. Just got my NG bill. Used $4.00 in gas (range, hot water, furnace) but my bil was almost $40.00 once you factor in all the fees. I have one of those exchange-a-tank propane tanks, so have to see if it's cheaper to get it filled or exchange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Baby steps = good. Coil springs are good for punches and chisels and (eventually) tongs (which are not a beginner project). It's tougher to forge than mild steel, though, so you should probably seek out a source of mild for your decorative projects. See if there's a steel supplier or fabrication shop near you that will sell you their drops (offcuts) for cheap. Oh, and please add your location (Ontario?) to your profile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Oh yeah. Tie rods, spring, shackles, etc. are decent steel for things that want harder than mild. Here's a good use for one of those wrist pins. On end as a dishing die like a round through hole in a swage block. Split and welded to a plate makes a nice large radius fuller. Flip the other half over and use the inside radius as a swage. That's a great big stack of useful steel, I see LOTS of cool things. Be careful collecting "good" steel it's going to be a while before your skills sets develop to the point you'll be able to work with a lot of it let alone have anything to do with it. For example, leaf spring is very attractive it's already almost blade shape. No? Pick up some mild steel flat stock and see how much fun it is forging a single bevel and keeping it under control is. Then multiply the forge and difficulty of heat management that spring steel represents. It's good stuff I have some that could've come off something in the shop you're gifted to have contacts in. It's right where I know where to find it when I come across a use. Coil spring is MUCH easier to forge blades from and it's almost perfect to forge punches, chisels, drifts, pry bars, etc. from. You'll get to learn how to evaluate salvaged steel too, it came off the vehicle for a reason you know. Micro fractures and . . . ? If you know an overhead door guy see about picking up a spring. I never measured but it looked like close to 100' of small dia. spring steel wire. Great stuff for small punches, scribes, chasing tools, skewers, etc. I see the thread has moved along since I last touched key, everything above this is earlier, I had to run a couple urgent errands for Deb. I was just saying check with the gas company, there are a lot of factors involved. Wow, my propane bill doesn't look anything like that, we buy in bulk so delivery is "free". The bill says, say, 207gl. delivered. $3.00/gl. total $621.00 Thank you very much . . . They can't load bottle off the truck, no certified scales so I have to drive to the corner and pay a bit more per gl. I've got to ask someone with natural gas for a peak at their bill. Sur charges are too shady to submit too unless I have to but I'm stubbornly independent. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 5 hours ago, Drego said: Anything in particular I should be on the lookout for? Axles, springs, etc... A few things. If they have the old mud flap hangers which are square steel grab all of those. It's spring steel and I've made knives, punches, chisels, etc. from it. It's small enough that it's not too hard to move. If you're thinking about making hammers, then old S-cams or steer axle king pins might be what you're looking for, but you'll probably need a striker to help move the steel. Coil spring is always good. I don't recommend taking the brake chambers apart to get the springs out. I've done it a few times by putting one in a press and cutting the can off and then releasing the press, but a LOT can go wrong if you're not careful and you could get seriously injured. I usually collect the U bolts that are cut off when leaf springs have to be changed, and I have a few of the leaf springs (3 leaf to 9 leaf stacks), but honestly it's a bear to deal with those with a hand hammer unless you cut them into strips. I haven't used many internal engine components, so I'm not sure what you'd want to grab other than the wrist pins you already got. If I think of anything else I usually grab I'll try to remember to post it, but that's about it for the moment. Oh, I did grab some push rods and head bolts as well, but I haven't done anything with those yet, so I can't comment on how well they can be forged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drego Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 Sweet. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Make sure push rods aren't sodium filled, those can get EXCITING in the forge or if cut or . . . Sodium + water = B A D! Given time any typical blacksmith can find a use for anything steel. Even if it's to hide the rest of the resources. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 Never heard of a sodium filled push rod, exhaust valves yes, but not the rods. As I understand they fell out of favor in the late 60's, at least with the GMC V6 series engines like in my Dad's 66 GMC pickup that had them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 2 hours ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said: Never heard of a sodium filled push rod, exhaust valves yes, but not the rods. As I understand they fell out of favor in the late 60's, at least with the GMC V6 series engines like in my Dad's 66 GMC pickup that had them. ARGHHH! You're right, not push rods, my bad. We used to collect sodium filled valves in high school and play with the sodium but that's a looooong time ago and I'd have to think to remember what I had for dinner last night. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drego Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 Got the pins. They're about 11/16" thick and 3 5/8 long. It didn't take as long to cut through them as I thought it would. Gonna put some heat to it and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drego Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 Alright so about 5 minutes of hammering got me here. I think it will be ok steel to move time will tell have an issue with the forge now it's a majestic two burner upper liner had some cracks which is normal I guess but I decided to seal them as per the instructions that came with the forge well the sealer I got appears to be eating into the liner I think I'm screwed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Any chance you can cut out the bad spots, stuff the cracks with ceramic blanket, and flip it over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsoldat Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Not sure what configurations the trucks you work on are but if any are set up with bunks for logging. The stake springs uncoil to 20' feet of 1/4 round and it's simple to do stand a pipe or rod in the vise drop the heated spring over it and pull hard on the end and it just unwinds. Same with the short springs in mudflap hangers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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