the iron dwarf Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 so how are you planning on rehardening the face? if it had a tool steel face on a cast steel body you need to convert the cast steel into toolsteel by adding certain elements to it below the present tool steel face, if you have a process for this many people would be interested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obert Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 Hello. So here Is a picture of what is missing from the horn of my anvil and this is roughly what I would like to weld on and then reshape in to an almost needle sharp end, I wouldn't want to prick myself, so I will round the point a bit. Of course I will be welding all the little dings and cuts in the horn as well. And then I intend to grind the horn smooth as I possibly can. I'm doing this regardless of any ones opinion, but that is not to say I do not value others opinions, I do, any kind, I learn from it. But I would very glad if someone could share their experience of welding cast steel (possibly anvil) with stick. Thanks. I will be posting more pictures of the anvil as it is now and as it was before also. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 that is not the amount missing, if the follow the curves on both top and bottom it probably started off 6mm longer when new than it is now. neither the top nor the bottom were ever straight as your straight edges clearly show if you place your lower straight edge so it touches the underside near the join with the body it will show you would need to add another 150mm at least to where your present end is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obert Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 9 minutes ago, Marc1 said: What are those 3 round marks on the face? That is a very nice anvil. I am not sure I understand your reasoning but it does not matter, it's a bit like those who buy a 1929 Ford model A and chop it to put a V8 in it, wide tyres and lowered body. A heresy to some, an achievement to others. Actually a better simile would be to take the old Ford engine out and put a chainsaw motor in it I hope you can figure out how to harden the face. May be before you try that, you can do a test. It may not need it and it may be still ok after your operation. To harden an anvil is not easy nor small job. You need a river with a boat ramp or a friendly fire fighter station to cool it fast enough. I believe those are called Pritchel holes Not sure about the spelling, English isn't my first language. I don't know why there are three, I was meaning to ask the question my self. their diameters are 10mm 14mm and 17mm roughly, those aren't perfect holes. I have an idea about hardening the face of the anvil which I intend to share here to get some feed back from you guys. if nothing else I expect it to be fun. As far as the hardened material goes you can clearly see it as darker portions on the face. If I drop the ball bearing on those parts it rebounds roughly 95% and around 60% on the softer surface which si basically everything south of the hardy hole, in short only the middle part between hardy any pritchel holes is still hard. and also the welded areas are now hard. I didn't wory about welding those small parts with a soft metal tig wire because I know from experience that carbon will migrate during welding and the welds will be hardened to a degree. But the hardness is not great I estimate it being around 50 hrc, with some effort you can file it, that's how I finished the hardy after welding.Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Certainly no surprise this guy is looking to make knives There really ought to be a law........ George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Well, it's nice to see that the more vigorous language of some of our members didn't scare you off. 2 minutes ago, George Geist said: Certainly no surprise this guy is looking to make knives There really ought to be a law........ George Look on the bright side, George: at least he's not planning to shoe horses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obert Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, the iron dwarf said: that is not the amount missing, if the follow the curves on both top and bottom it probably started off 6mm longer when new than it is now. neither the top nor the bottom were ever straight as your straight edges clearly show if you place your lower straight edge so it touches the underside near the join with the body it will show you would need to add another 150mm at least to where your present end is Yes I agree But I had a look at Quite a few of these type of anvils and the design is such that the horn is straight on the top an curved from the bottom. That is whay I said "rougly" this shape. This horns are never perfect cylinders as in a german style anvils I have seen. Cheers! 1 minute ago, George Geist said: Certainly no surprise this guy is looking to make knives There really ought to be a law........ George I said it is unoriginal but that is what I want... Oh what you have against chisels you haven't mentioned them at all... Here is the corner of the foot that is mangled up. This is where I will test my chosen electrodes. and here are some more pictures of the comatose anvil as is right now. This is how it looked when I bought it. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 43 minutes ago, Obert said: I would like to apologize for actually not reading the forum rules and thereby not respecting them. I will respect them in the future. But would like to state that I do not agree with the rule regarding the use of profanity. I just don't understand it, to me its not logical. But like I said I will respect the rule. The forum rules of no profanity have been in place since the forum began. This is so anyone of any age can read the forum, and a lady can read the forum without feeling uncomfortable or unwelcome. We have more than one smith that encourages their children and grandchildren to read the forum to them while sitting on their knee. These children learn to read, spend quality time with their parents and grandparents, and by the time they are able to swing a hammer have an incredible knowledge of blacksmithing. The forum rules no not interfere with learning about blacksmithing, but instead encourage folks from over 150 world wide countries to be able to read the site. Thank you for your understanding. If you could find an anvil in perfect condition, of the brand of your choice on every street corner, and with a purchase price of pocket change, I dare say you would get several brands, several weights, and several shapes, just to try them all out and see which you liked the best. Because an anvil can be difficult to find, expensive, or other reasons, we sometimes give them more value or stature, when after all it is just a tool that will, in time wear out or need to be replaced. If in doubt, then buy two anvils and keep one as a spare while you can still find both anvils. Later the price may be more, and you may not find what you want available on your street corner. Of the two anvils you purchased, in this example, the horn shape, the face width, the anvil weight will all make a difference in your mind, and you will prefer one anvil over the other for the job it can do a little bit differently. Obert, Thank you for explaining your position and your purpose of working on your anvil. Please keep us informed as to your progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obert Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 Hi Glenn! Thanks for the kind words and I will. As to the profanity issue. What you have written, that is exactly the logic I do not understand. Protecting the children and the ladies, from what. From experience I know children will find those words out and will use them and will not be destroyed or even harmed by them, unless some "moral" adult overhears them saying these forbidden words. And that is madness and absurdity to me, the facts that words are forbidden. In my mind no words should be forbidden, ever. Its our greatest invention. And the freedom of speech is a big freedom I enjoy a lot. The same goes with protecting children from learning about sexuality as being perfectly fine and instead painting it as a shameful act (not all, but a lot of people are like this) while on the other hand violence displayed in all sorts of forms is perfectly fine. Insane in my opinion. And don't get me started on the ladies and their use of profanity... But like I said it I will respect the rule since I have to coexist and that is hard if there is no mutual respect. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 I can see in this last photos that those 3 are indeed holes and not round marks like it seemed in the first photo, to me anyway. Do they go all the way through or are they blind holes? Also ... your anvil is a very nice one. I like the round edge on those anvils, come real handy. If you have 90% rebound between the holes, that is all you need really. That is the area you forge on and where the rebound is required to help you hammer. Considering the difficulties in hardening an anvil, something most folks would not attempt nor have the equipment to do it, I would give it a miss. By all means rebuild that corroded corner on the foot. No harm there. Make sure you grind all the rust out before you weld it. PS We must have posted at the same time. Let me say something about language. I have a CB radio on my truck, because I drive a lot on rural roads that have no mobile phone coverage nor commercial radio. I also thought I could make my journey shorter by having a chat with the truck drivers and other users of the civil band radio. I was mistaken. Besides the emergency channel, the other 70 odd channels are chockablock full of people swearing their head off using profane language every second word. It is truly amazing that anyone can possibly put a sentence together with so many superfluous words in it. It is some form of idiomatic prop for the vocally disabled. Sad really. I am sure you can see why no one wants to have it in written format. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obert Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 hi Marc! Those holes are blind. Its an oval shape between the holes that is hardened. Before the grinding it was just a as somewhat bigger oval but there are traces of it extending beyond the holes, that is why I suspect the anvil had been reground at least one time before. And also the ones I have seen that were in mint condition had an 90% rebound all ove the face. Like I said already in my first post I knew it was a functional anvil as it was and it still is, but that is not what I am after. I know I am weird been told so ever since I was a small child, never followed the crowd, its not even a choice. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-1ToolSteel Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Some people, when they see someone who is careless with their language, will wonder what other things they are careless about. A child who picks up profane language may miss out on opportunities later in life, such as certain jobs. There are many things I could go into, but I think we better just respect the rules and leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obert Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 1 hour ago, the iron dwarf said: so how are you planning on rehardening the face? if it had a tool steel face on a cast steel body you need to convert the cast steel into toolsteel by adding certain elements to it below the present tool steel face, if you have a process for this many people would be interested Its to much to go into right now about how I plan to harden the face of the anvil. But plan A is the very conventional way. Heating it up and then quenching it. Tempering I don't belevi to be required in my case, because observations I made of my anvil lead me to belive it is not a high carbon alloy and will therefore not harden much over 50 hrc which is fine by me. While I can not tell you how to convert cast steel into tool steel. I can tell you how to convert mild steel into high carbon steel. I do it all the time. You are going to need a tig welder and some charcoal in stick form. I make mine from willow twigs. Then you just add the willow sticks in charcoal form to the weld puddle instead of filler metal. The molten steel will readily absorb C and that part is now high carbon (not the whole part). I make chisels and scredriwers that way. I also temper them since after quenching a file wont touch them. Cheers! PS: of course for best results everything has to be clean and prepared before as is good practice in welding. And I use argon traps for best results since here you really are cooking the metal and you want the gas shielding to be bulletproof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Olson Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 If Obert thinks swearing and using profanities in front of kids is ok, then I think he should be band from this forum! And , remember Obert, there are 45000 members to this forum. Im sure Im not the only one that thinks this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaperPatched Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 He also said that in the cause of mutual trust and respect he would abide by the forum rules. If we start banning people for what they think there might not be nearly as many folks here as there are now. It's actions that we will see that should govern our response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 do not worry; we are watching, and if I see another "F bomb" from him or anyone else, they will be gone. He is very luclky he isnt already from his first one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 2 minutes ago, PaperPatched said: He also said that in the cause of mutual trust and respect he would abide by the forum rules. If we start banning people for what they think there might not be nearly as many folks here as there are now. It's actions that we will see that should govern our response. Well said and I agree. Often offense to swear words is in the ear of the recipient. I find it highly dependent on the generation, geographic region, class, religion, or nationality of the offended individual. If we throw a second or third language into the mix the textual and social quirks of the first language are fairly meaningless. As long as we play by Glen's rules and apologize when we make a mistake, no need for talk of punishment. On the OP, having now seen the photos of the finished product, I don't think he wrecked the anvil. Shortened the life some? Yes, when measured in scores or hundreds of years. But it is HIS anvil, and there are a lot more anvils out there. Someone who shows a higher level of workmanship in TIG welding and grinding like that will soon figure out what works and what doesn't in regards to anvils and blacksmithing. If not, one less anvil in the world. They are making more every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubalcain2 Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 1 minute ago, Judson Yaggy said: Well said and I agree. Often offense to swear words is in the ear of the recipient. I find it highly dependent on the generation, geographic region, class, religion, or nationality of the offended individual. If we throw a second or third language into the mix the textual and social quirks of the first language are fairly meaningless. As long as we play by Glen's rules and apologize when we make a mistake, no need for talk of punishment. On the OP, having now seen the photos of the finished product, I don't think he wrecked the anvil. Shortened the life some? Yes, when measured in scores or hundreds of years. But it is HIS anvil, and there are a lot more anvils out there. Someone who shows a higher level of workmanship in TIG welding and grinding like that will soon figure out what works and what doesn't in regards to anvils and blacksmithing. If not, one less anvil in the world. They are making more every day. Well put. At least we see he made an informed decision, even if it was one that most of us would not agree to. As to language, he has apologized and agreed to follow the rules in future, so beyond that, the way he chooses to use his mouth outside of the forum is his own concern and none of ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Punishment is not part of the site guidelines. Instead there are times when a gentle reminder is in order, and when it is needed, a gentle reminder is then provided. As to trying to monitor thoughts, intent, or what you do in your shop or personal life, that is YOUR personal life and YOUR personal business. You have that responsibility, and you make your own decisions. The site guidelines do not inhibit blacksmithing in any way. The guidelines do help others that do not speak English, to use a translator to convert the information to their own language. They are then able to use the information provided. The English language is difficult enough without adding slang, dialects, and words that do not translate well, or have very different meanings in other countries or languages. IForgeIron has high standards and is a comfortable place to visit and learn about blacksmithing and metal working. We ask that you help us keep those standards high and the site open to anyone that wants to learn. Obert, we only ask that you follow the site guidelines. You agreed and that concluded the conversation in my opinion. Thank you for your cooperation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 (edited) I think the only time one will relay run afoul of IFI, is when one assumes that the site is either corporate or publicly funded. As it is wholy funded By Glenn, his house his rules. In my experience he is a very understanding and easy going guy. If not I would have probably been booted on one of many occasions. Obert, you are as stubborn and opinionated as any smith I know, well spoken and tho a bit obsessive about appearance (a trate any knife maker needs) you should fit in well. Edited August 26, 2017 by Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Sorry to disappoint you guys but Obert obviously knows what he wants to do and our reasoning is wrong in his mind. I don't have much input for you regarding your anvil. It's yours do to it what you will. Not knowing how to use one, what it's made of what processes are required to achieve the results you wish don't seem to be a problem in your mind. So there really isn't anything I can do for you and won't expend the time to share my experience or more than 50 years experiece. I do wish to thank you for showing the respect to maintain civil language. It may not make any sense to you but a foul mouth isn't a good sign, certainly not of an educated mind. Good luck to you. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Frosty, Well said. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 2 hours ago, Frosty said: Sorry to disappoint you guys but Obert obviously knows what he wants to do and our reasoning is wrong in his mind. I don't have much input for you regarding your anvil. It's yours do to it what you will. Not knowing how to use one, what it's made of what processes are required to achieve the results you wish don't seem to be a problem in your mind. So there really isn't anything I can do for you and won't expend the time to share my experience or more than 50 years experiece. Amen to that Quote I do wish to thank you for showing the respect to maintain civil language. It may not make any sense to you but a foul mouth isn't a good sign, certainly not of an educated mind. Can best be described as a feeble mind trying to express itself forcefully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obert Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 Hi guys! Thanks for all the comments, especially to those of common sense and tolerance, very happy to see there are at least a few of those around. Anyone can read my posts and judge for themselves. I never stated that your reasoning is wrong, quite the opposite. I stated many times that the anvil is useful as it was and so on. I realize that. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my way is the right way, if you just want to use the anvil then what I am doing here is definitely a foolish thing to do, but I'm just repeating myself, everything is already written in my previous posts and even in the title of the thread itself. And also would I be asking and researching about topics I do not understand if my lack of knowledge presented no problem in my mind. Let us proceed with the restoration of my anvil... Still I would need advice regarding the stick welding electrode choice for low alloy cast steel with medium C content which is what I think my anvil is made of. Obviously I do not have the knowledge nor the equipment necessary to determine the exact metallurgical composition of metals. So its just a guess. But if nothing else I am most certain that it is steel. So if you have any experience in the matter at hand and are not emotionally attached to someone elses lump of steel I would much appreciate it if you could share your thoughts. Thanks. As for the hardening process I intend to perform on this anvil, the matter is as follows. I believe I have the quenching part sorted. I live near a stream, the stream has a stone dam over which the water flows and falls around 60 cm or 2 feet. The current is strong and the water is very cold even in the summer. The anvil will be placed under the rushing water on some stones I prepared so it will not be submerged at all only overrun with water. I am confident this is good enough for quenching an anvil of my size and even bigger probably. Heating the anvil is where I am uncertain if I will be able to achieve a high enough temp. with my current means. So this is the plan. Enclose the anvil in firebricks (not sure of this term)with the face turning down in such a way there will be a gap between the face and the bottom firebricks for the rose bud which will be burning propane gas. I intend to utilize two 10 kg bottles for this. Will it be enough in your opinion to get the anvil hot enough, that I intend to test with a magnet. Will this be sufficient? Let me also say that unfortunately I can not build a fire in that location, so that's out. Also the anvil has two 20mm square blind holes on opposite sides, so carrying the hot anvil should be no issue for two persons and of course I intend to heat the anvil right by the "waterfall". As I stated earlier there is also a plan B and C but I will not go there since those are unconventional methods that are experimental in nature, concocted by my very own feeble mind and therefore should be great fun. And that's what its all about. Gotta love the toys you play with. Have fun guys. Cheers! Mod Note: This post has been edited to meet the site guidelines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverNZ Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Hi Obert My father used to have a saying, Its your cow and you can do what you want with it. Now as far as repairing your anvil I repaired mine where some numpty had cut the side off with a gas torch by preheating it to about 100 deg centigrade and using a hard facing rod called hardcraft 400 which deposits a work hardening weld. I kept the runs small about 20mm or 3/4" and then heavily peened the weld deposit. It took me a about 6 hours to do the repair so as not to over heat the work face, My anvil is a wrought iron with forge welded High carbon face I did not seem to loose any hardenes or rebound and where the repair was done the hardcraft seems to be the same hardenes as the rest. Just remember if its difficult to handle cold its 10 times as difficult when red hot and I doubt the 2x10kg bottles will do it as the draw off rale wont be enough or the volume of fuel I would guess you will need at least 2x 45Kg bottles and big burners. I would also use kao wool or eqivelent as this is a very good insulator Cheers Beaver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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