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I Forge Iron

Is this bad


Binesman

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I'm aware that there are a number of issues with the air to propane mix. I built this forge on a very tight budget because my son wanted to get into metal working. It seems to work just fine as far as getting to temperature and the flame has a nice roll to it in the cylinder. The one major concern I have is you'll notice the burner arm is getting red hot. Is this a major issue or is it okay to run like this?

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Ayup, that's an issue. Lose the long pipe thing the burner is inserted in, the well adjusted flame from the torch is burning there instead of in the forge. You want the end of the torch a fraction of an inch inside the shell with a LITTLE space around it so it's not touching the liner that will help prevent it burning up.

What's the liner made from?

Closer pics from a couple angles will help, especially of how your rig is put together.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Its not completed yet.  This was a test burn to make sure it would work.  The liner currently is a perlite waterglass cement.  Im going to be coating that in a 2700f rated refractory cement.  Ill remove the stainless steel pupe and place the burner directly.  It was on there because i was told that it needed additional length for the gas/oxygen to mix.  Im assuming that is not correct? I will get more pictures tomorrow. However the way it is put together is pretty simple. It's a stainless steel pot filled with perlite with a hole cut in the end and a two and a half inch hole cut in the side for the burner. The burner is just a propane torch from Harbor Freight.

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I forgot to welcome you aboard in the last post. Glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the gang live within visiting distance.

Search "bean can forge" and ignore Youtube experts, most are clueless and some are outright dangerous. A soldering torch produces a near perfect flame at the torch tip. Do you think it needs more mixing? That's NOT a shot at you, you don't know how the tings work yet. I'm only trying to point out these things are generally logical and thinking it through is usually worth the effort. It's also to point out what noodleheads most Youtube experts are.

Lose the perlite, waterglass and refractory cement. Perlite is only good for about 1,900f before it starts melting, water glass melts much lower temp. Furnace cement is NOT for direct flame contact it's designed to stick bricks and such together.

Check out the Iforgeiron. "gas forge" section to get a handle on how the things work. There are two pretty good threads ongoing, one "Forges 101" and "Burners 101". Virtually anything you need to know has been asked, answered and discussed already, there's a good chance you'll learn what you need to make a good bean can forge. If not, you'll have a working handle on the craft jargon and the basics so you can ask good questions and understand the answers. 

I hate to tell you but what you've obviously put a lot of effort time and money into will be a pretty poor and short lived forge. It CAN be made to work but there are better forges that take less work and work a whole lot better. I'd much rather see you spending time learning the craft than trying to make a poor tool work.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I appreciate the quick responses and the knowledgable advice.  Money wise there isnt a lot tied up in this project i already had most of the studf lying around.  Think i spent 30 for the gallon of water glass that u still have 1/2 of, and 20 on the furnace cement thats coming.  As for the if i thought it needed more air i couldnt tell you.  The photo you see is from its first burning never tried it without the additional length.  Ill invest some time reading the posts you suggested and see what knowledge i can take from them.  For the time being until i can get some cash set aside to build/buy a proper forge do you believe this will work for my son as he realy wants to start swinging a hammer.  Also do you believe it would be better to not add the furnace cement or will it add a little life span to this?

 

And please dont take this questions as ignoring your advice.  Im hearing you 100% and truely do appreciate the time you're taking to assist me.  Im just working on a limited budget and trying to get my son something that will work for a month or so without exploding.

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The issue of the flame needling enugh distance to burn is acualy valid, but as long as the blue or yellow cones are not impinging on the wall or floor of the forge they have had plenty of time for the fuel and O2 to react. Honestly not a big problem with most burners and forges. The only place I have accuracy seen it mentioned as an issue was a 1" burner in a single burner school forge, the recommendation was to use a 12" diameter she'll with 2" of insulation, so the flame had a 8" pluss befor it impinged on the far wall of the forge for max effecency. 1" schedual 40 pipe is acualy dang close to 1 1/4" id. What are you working with, a 1/2" I'd burner? Not much of an issue. 

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Zirconium silicate (with 5% bentonite  clay as binder) will beat any brand of furnace cement all hollow, and can be found, for a lot less money, at most potter's supply stores. Move the hand torch--without the tube-- close to the burner opening, These modifications will allow your son to pound on some steel for a short while, before your present refractory fails. The Burners 101, and Forges 101 threads will give allow the direction needed to make good decisions on what kind of burner and forge you want to build for him. DO NOT neglect to read up on "T" burners. Good luck helping your boy.

Spoiler: Morgan brand 2600 F highly insulating and reasonably tough fire bricks ( cheap from eBay) can be hardened against flame impingement with the coating above, and then  cemented together. Any worn out hole saw (or a carbide encrusted hole saw from Harbor Freight Tools), makes a good fast built forge.

Choosing a simple 1/2" "T" will set you up best for mounting the burner on a small brick forge.

 

 

 

 

 

" burner will go vary well in such a forge

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It seems to be a common post here where people tell us they want to save money by economizing on good refractories and spending several times as much on fuel to run the forge.  I have never figured out how that works. Seems much like the old "we lose a little on each sale but make it up in volume!" 

Wayne Coe sells gas forge making supplies at a reasonable rate.  I believe you could have built a much better forge CHEAPER than the one you did.

Now as to if it will work: if it heats steel up to forging temps then it works even if it does so inefficiently or has a built in short lifespan.  You may be surprised at how much more fun forging is with a better set up though.

If you are in the USA look into finding a local ABANA affiliate. Learning to forge from someone that knows what they are doing can speed things up massively---I generally say that one Saturday afternoon will save over 6 months of weekends on your own.  If you are in my neck of the woods I'd be happy to teach you the basics  for free and get y'all started smithing.

And Youtube is an attractive nuisance when you don't know enough about something to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff; especially as folks often make claims that their method is GREAT even when it lousy and perhaps even dangerous. (Many videos with great production values have bad information for example).

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Blacksmithing didn't seem as prevalent on the net back when it was just a part of rec.crafts.metalworking---before the RFP for a blacksmithing sub group. I don'y recall propane forges being discussed much either and solid fuel forges have such a wider "working" envelope....

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Binesman: Don't take the preceding conversation personally, you ain't the first and won't be the last to try building something based on the . . . junk experts posting on Youtube. 

I didn't ask you those questions like you should've known the answer, nobody knows any of this stuff till they learn. Like I said it was to make a couple basic points. Tools tend to be logical. . . Well, no tool is logical, not even what passes for AI I should say functional tools are designed logically. and that it's worth thinking about what you see and where it came from. Whoever posted the forge design you copied used a soldering torch that works perfectly well. Then to add a bit of himself to an already perfectly functional design he added a long tube and came up with a reason. 

It takes time to learn enough to spot stuff like that, it's not on you, we've all been there.

Yes, what you've proposed for a forge will last a while and give your boy a taste of the craft. Move the burner as Mike suggests and it'll make good heat till it burns the liner out of it. By then you can have done some reading and HAMMERING. Do NOT forget to do some hammering yourself! your boy is right this is fun, LOTS of fun. By time this forge wears out you'll have a good idea of what you'll need the next one to do and have a good idea how to make it an efficient durable tool. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Thankyou all for your support and help.  My initial plan was actualy a coal forge but my hoa wont allow it.   I did remove the long tube and it seems to be burning better.  I have a layer of furnace cement in and my son and i sat down today and made a set of tongs together (hes not allowed to hold the hot metal yet just swimg the hammer)  later on today hes going to attempt to make his mom a steak knife.

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Very cool.  Lucky kid for sure.  I'll tell you what, as a teacher I can't help but think of the educational side of smithing with kids.  Get him doing some of the research, measuring out projects and keeping notes on forging sessions lessons learned.  He will be more math, reading and writing growth doing something he is excited about than he will get at school.

Also, you may want to flatten out the bits on those rebar tongs a bit more to make them more "grabby".

 

Lou

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Decent pair of tongs, if you hot fit the bits they'll hold better, as Lou says. I see you're into keeping him away from the fire but those look heavy for me. 

As Lou says, the things you have to do to blacksmith are often the same things they teach in school but that's too often theory, at the anvil they're REAL things they have a REAL use. Huge difference. 

Another lesson learned at the anvil is the true confidence builder. He'll learn he can DO REAL things if he works at it hard enough. If you can deal with real problems then you aren't at other people's mercy. Being able to deal with whatever comes along IS confidence, REAL confidence. Also, the more you know how to do the better you are at learning how to do things you don't know. The more you know how to do the more valuable you are as an employee, the more you can demand for your time, the less likely you'll be out of work and the shorter the time you'll have to look for work. 

Know how to do enough and you get to consider job offers. Hmmmm? ;)

More than iron gets forged at the anvil.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Charcoal, hide it in a discarded barbecue grill....

honestly he is going to get burned, and mom is going to twist your ear over it, keep bag of peas in the freezer, a wet a hand towel I have one in a zip lock in the fridge), apply for 20 min. Many a 2nd degree burn desided to be a first degree burn with proper treatment. Even running 60degree tap water over it and then holding it in the sink helps. Be ware the glove, dang things can get real hot, and cook you good wile you are trying to get it off. And yes, dragons breath makes you want gloves or longer tongs. 

This will creat memories you will both cherish.

btw I would learn to forge roses, smother things over with the mothers and grandmothers real well...

Edited by Mod34
fixed typo that could have been interpreted as inappropriate language
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One of the best things you learn at the forge and anvil is that yes you will make mistakes; but then you figure a way to repair them or you start over and THAT'S OK! It's part of blacksmithing.  Being afraid of making mistakes keeps many people from progressing.

Or as a friend of mine says: There are no mistakes in Blacksmithing--there are only mid project design changes!

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Thank you all again for the support.  And yea he learned first hand today "mid project redesign" as his steak knife turned in to something more akin to a dagger.  But for his first time "mine as well"  i think he did great.  I also see what you all mean about rhis set up being inefficient as we whent through 2 20 galon tanks today to make tongs and a knife.  And yes i know the knife is very rough and still needs all the finish work but im still xxxx proud of him.

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