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I Forge Iron

Traditional blackmsithing.


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On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 5:05 PM, ThomasPowers said:

Viking period materials, Viking period tools, Viking period techniques, Viking period designs?    GOOD!

I tend to default to the Hylestad stave church set up nowadays as my knees don't support working on the ground anymore.  (Easier to get a bellows thrall that way too.) Remote Norse farms are also the exception to the rule that smiths would trade for their iron; so you can get away with smelting your own wrought iron in a bloomery!

I haven not been able to find a good book on wrought iron bloomeries..   Despite years of looking the only information I found was a small blurb about the wrought iron industries of the UK and they used an oil fired furnace to make the wrought iron or at least that is what I remember..  Not sure how you remember all the different books but you are amazing.. 

Please pass along more info on the wrought iron production process of puddled wrought if you have some...  :)   

All of the information I have found always deal with making steel vs hand puddled wrought.. 

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Traditional to me : means  basic hammer, forge, anvil and vise.. This definition is very loose but for the most part I don't use any electric tools.. (simply because I don't like them) except for a power hammer or hydraulic press. These are wonderful tool and electric, air or hydraulic all are wonderful time savers.. 

Here is the kicker.. As these tools came along and spend up the process.. You actually make less money per item as it takes less time to make.. So while you charge less you can produce more therefore you end up working harder for less.. 

I am a traditional trade smith based on 1700-1930's or even into the 40's maybe 50's but a trade smith.. If it's made from iron, or steel  and you need X, y or z.. I had the ability to forge what was needed to the correct size and use.. and then within short order harden and temper to said.. 

With that also being said. I am a purist meaning I prefer to use the most basic of tools to get the job done..  While I will use any tool needed to accomplish the job in a timely fashion it's comes to convenience and what the time is worth to me.. Is the job going to pay me the for the extra time hand forging a product vs sledger or power hammer or hand finished vs grinder. etc.. 

One thing I will not use for any item I make which would be consider a traditional forging is arc welding or even gas welding..  Soldering or silver soldering was used and I will use it on certain items.. Keys, locks, slip hinges, self closers,  etc, etc.. And will forge braze screw boxes and the like. 

Sadly I did demo's today but didn't take one picture of the table of wares.. It had everything from chain, axes, swords, knives, latches, hinges, forks, spoons, trivets, shovels.. thumblatches.. etc, etc.. 

 

 

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I'm more up on the direct process---the bloomery vs the indirect process, first you make cast iron and then you puddle it to remove excess carbon and get wrought iron.

Now the Real Wrought Iron Company, LTD in Coalbrookdale, UK has an old factory that used to make puddled wrought iron and may have info on the process you can access.

I do know that there were several processes besides puddling---like the Osmond Process (Wikipedia has an intriguing article on it---wish I could afford the fuel to experiment!) I commend to you it's links and references.

Now for a modern take on a bloomery "The Mastery and Uses of Fire in Antiquity", Rehder; has plans for a "foolproof" bloomery in the appendices.

A lot of knowledge is buried in academic journals and publications (like "Medieval Iron In Society" Papers presented at the symposium in Norberg 1985; or the IronMasters conference that was held in Athens OH where friends of mine presented on 10 years of experiments with Scandinavian Short Stack Bloomeries.

Also there is a mailing list on archeological metallurgy: ARCH-METALS   
For the discussion of all aspects of archaeo-metallurgy and the dissemination of data related to all aspects of ancient and historic metallurgy and metal artefacts: the applications of material science to archaeo- metallurgy, and the development of methodologies to the study archaeo-metallurgical debris.

Where you can ask questions about sources of info on Puddling.

I just ran across: "Papers on Iron and Steel, Practical and Experimental: A Series of Original Communications Made to the Philosophical Magazine, Chiefly on Those Subjects With Copious Illustrative Notes" which I will have to save up for to add to my library...

Also search on things like Henry Cort and puddling;  The Walloon method and chaffery and finery furnaces, ...

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14 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

I am a traditional trade smith based on 1700-1930's or even into the 40's maybe 50's but a trade smith..

That's one big time span to encapsulate in one hit under the blanket term of traditional.

I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, personally I have very little interest/knowledge in "traditional" ironwork and I'm sure your experience and knowledge outnumbers mine 1000 fold, but as my Dad pointed out the other day (conservation architect) the Victorians did a lot of mock period ironwork, and in an O.T.T style to outdo their predecessors. Who does the traditonal work in that situation?

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14 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

One thing I will not use for any item I make which would be consider a traditional forging is arc welding or even gas welding..

Certainly that's a legitimate choice, but it's worth noting that Samuel Yellin made some use of arc welding in his own shop (to supplement his primary forge welding) and his student Parke Edwards used it extensively in his work at Bryn Athyn Cathedral (necessitated by the use of monel, which doesn't forge weld well). 

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2 hours ago, Joel OF said:

That's one big time span to encapsulate in one hit under the blanket term of traditional.

I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, personally I have very little interest/knowledge in "traditional" ironwork and I'm sure your experience and knowledge outnumbers mine 1000 fold, but as my Dad pointed out the other day (conservation architect) the Victorians did a lot of mock period ironwork, and in an O.T.T style to outdo their predecessors. Who does the traditonal work in that situation?

Yes it is.. but one has to realize there are places that modern welding and gas welding were part of the tradition..   In other words if working for a given time frame you use the same tools and finish to that level..  Having a very diverse skill set lets you explore other facets and implement these skills to good merit..  

As a liken.. I often use the Shakers of the USA as examples of amazing works done with modern equipment..  They believed "Hearts and hands to God".. Meaning do you work and finish it as if you were giving it to God..   So if for a given time frame they used arc welding and if reproducing to a 100% level than the same processes should be used.. 

2 hours ago, JHCC said:

Certainly that's a legitimate choice, but it's worth noting that Samuel Yellin made some use of arc welding in his own shop (to supplement his primary forge welding) and his student Parke Edwards used it extensively in his work at Bryn Athyn Cathedral (necessitated by the use of monel, which doesn't forge weld well). 

He sure did use arc welding and gas welding.. A lot of his creations would have been nearly impossible to complete without these modern tools. 

So if repairing his work. Ideally the methods he employed should be used as well as the correct materials.  

If one studies and is proficient in forging and some or most of the classically learned metal working skill sets just looking at the piece will usually show you how it was made..  
Lets face it.. One could mill or machine a thumblatch on a CNC milling machine, remove it and then fix it to look hand made.. Or with the newer laser measuring devices could create a CAM file and the latch would be pretty much near 100% finished.. Throw it into a tumbler for awhile, and who would know the difference other than the person who made it.. Unless someone was proficient in making thumblatches and knows exactly what to look for and even on completely hand forged then filed finished you can see how it unfolded.. 

Reason why I speak on this is because I myself had to reverse engineer the making of traditional hardware.. Mind you there are 1000's of ways of doing something but the basics apply to everyone and even though I am self taught and have never been with another smith while making a latch, yet since I came out of retirement I did have a chance to work with another smith on a latch and he does it the same way..  Coincidence or is simply because of how the tools have to be used to get the desired results.. 

How can this be though I never worked with anybody else..   Same on nearly everything I have ever made..  The only thing that i have seen that has changed since I had retired is the way hammers, certain axes and such are slot punched.. 
 

The only time I would slot punch a hammer eye was on a ball peen or engineers hammer where the cheeks needed the extra material..  Axes were always preforged for the weld (fullered),  steel strip welded onto the pole before bending around and eye welded, steel inserted and welded up.. 
 

Slot punching does offer less distortion in the eye but it also changes the way the eye geometry is shaped naturally while round punched..  Again just a different way and as pointed out on another thread some eyes were straight walled with no taper at top or bottom.. 

At some point I'll make a video How to on round punching an eye but these days I have no time..  

 

Anyhow,  applying the correct methods for a given time frame is part of the process is making reproductions or fixing others works which have been damaged.. 

One could argue it's all pointless as there is no such thing as original past the day it's made on..  Nothing can be reproduced.. 
Where was the first soft coal forge used vs charcoal? 

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40 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Reason why I speak on this is because I myself had to reverse engineer the making of traditional hardware.. Mind you there are 1000's of ways of doing something but the basics apply to everyone and even though I am self taught and have never been with another smith while making a latch, yet since I came out of retirement I did have a chance to work with another smith on a latch and he does it the same way..  Coincidence or is simply because of how the tools have to be used to get the desired results.. 

Convergent evolution at work!

40 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Slot punching does offer less distortion in the eye but it also changes the way the eye geometry is shaped naturally while round punched..  Again just a different way and as pointed out on another thread some eyes were straight walled with no taper at top or bottom.. 

At some point I'll make a video How to on round punching an eye but these days I have no time..  

Brent Bailey's most recent video shows him doing just that. When I first saw it, I was struck at how round-punching the eye and then flattening the sides (without a drift in place!) automatically creates an oval hole, all ready for the final drifting. Here's the video (the punching and flattening sequence is from 2:56-3:25):

It also strikes me that this method has the additional advantage of not requiring that the punch be held in any special orientation other than straight up-and-down, unlike using an eye punch or a slitting chisel, which must be held straight to the center line of the blank. @jlpservicesinc, does this jibe with your own experience?

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The arc welder was invented by a competitor of Samuel Yellin name of Miller. Once the process was proven, Miller's shop started out producing Yellin's, Yellin bought arc welders from MIller to reduce the number of failed welds in made up work. After he incorporated arc welding, other joinery, especially forge welds were only used on components where a failure only scrapped an hour or two of work. A failed forge weld assembling a large piece, say a cathedral gate or railing could and too often did send days worth of work to the pile. Too often you just can NOT take a made up piece apart and rebuild it with the same components.

The oxy acet torch was invented by a multi generation blacksmith who's extended family had the trade pretty tied up. He branched out plumbing with the oxy air torch, faster and MUCH hotter than the old naptha (gasoline) plumber's torch. With the incorporation of reasonably pure oxy, the torch was hot enough to weld he could repair iron and steel work without having to dismantle and transport it, set up a portable smithy to repair a gate hinge, broken weld, etc. From there he went into making industrial machinery mostly for the food industry. His name is Hobart.

The only way a business person would lose money using labor saving tools is if they only charge strictly time and materials.

Philosophical choices like any have a price. The rewards of blacksmithing go way deeper than $.

Of course that's just my opinion and I admit the articles I read about the invention of the arc welder and oxy acet torch was a long time ago and I no longer have cites available. Please feel free to take them how you will.

Frosty The Lucky.

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35 minutes ago, JHCC said:

Convergent evolution at work!

Brent Bailey's most recent video shows him doing just that. When I first saw it, I was struck at how round-punching the eye and then flattening the sides (without a drift in place!) automatically creates an oval hole, all ready for the final drifting. Here's the video (the punching and flattening sequence is from 2:56-3:25):

It also strikes me that this method has the additional advantage of not requiring that the punch be held in any special orientation other than straight up-and-down, unlike using an eye punch or a slitting chisel, which must be held straight to the center line of the blank. @jlpservicesinc, does this jibe with your own experience?

Yes, while I didn't have a chance to watch the video..  Your description is correct..   If you upset the area to be punched ahead of time there is nearly no distortion or cupping where punched if using a square section like in making a german, french, swedish or Hofi style hammer.. And in fact if you wanted to make a really long cheek you can forge the fullering around both the face and peen without having a cold shut at either end of the eye.. Thus less dressing out of the eye with a burr or file.. 

6 minutes ago, Frosty said:

The arc welder was invented by a competitor of Samuel Yellin name of Miller. Once the process was proven, Miller's shop started out producing Yellin's, Yellin bought arc welders from MIller to reduce the number of filed welds in made up work. After he incorporated arc welding joinery, especially forge welds were only used on components where a failure only scrapped an hour or two of work. A failed forge weld assembling a large piece, say a cathedral gate or railing could and too often did send days worth of work to the pile.

The oxy acet welder was invented by a multi generation blacksmith who's family had the trade pretty tied up. With a torch hot enough to weld he could repair iron and steel work without having to dismantle and transport it, set up a portable smithy to repair a gate hinge, broken weld, etc. From there he went into making industrial machinery mostly for the food industry. His name is Hobart.

The only way a business person would lose money using labor saving tools is if they only charge strictly time and materials.

Philosophical choices like any have a price. The rewards of blacksmithing go way deeper than $.

Of course that's just my opinion and I admit the articles I read about the invention of the arc welder and oxy acet torch was a long time ago and I no longer have cites available. Please feel free to take them how you will.

Frosty The Lucky.

Frosty the reason why I mentioned the fact that once you produce more the pay rate goes does is simply the fact of shop with a flat rate.. 

I learned years ago that if I don't charge accordingly on pieces I started to forge very quickly I lost money. So just because I can now forge an item in 30minutes vs the 45minutes it used to take.. I still charge the same for it and the shop rate technically goes up vs down.. 

  As a hobbyist that has basically no overhead and does it for fun vs putting food on the table or IE a little extra pocket change I totally agree.. 

And again..  Most smiths turned towards technology vs away as they themselves recognized the faster or easier the job the more money as long as they charged correctly and lets face it..  a ton of them turned to auto repair as well as machinist type work as the transition took place.. 

If you can re hoop a tire 15minutes faster than a competing blacksmith and not needing 2 helpers to do it (arc welding) and can charge nearly the same amount and the job is just as good or better who or which place would you choose? 

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Flat rate is a time and materials calculation. Bid the work and the faster, better and  more efficient you are the more you earn and the less wear and tear you put on yourself. There's a good reason manufacturers don't charge flat rate. If they do a one off job the charges are punishing. See what Ford would charge for a custom made one off car. You'd have to buy the company.

I'm not faulting you, it's your decision. It's not like we do this because it's the easiest fastest way to hang a latch on a gate or put hardware on a door. We do this because we like the craft. That you make a living at it is admirable. Heck I'd be happy if it paid for itself.

We all dance this to our own tune and steps. Like the song says, "dance like nobody's watching!"

Frosty The Lucky.

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Charcoal to coal: in "Cathedral, Forge and Waterwheel, Technology and Invention in the Middle Ages"  Gies & Gies say that coal was first used in smithing in the high to late Middle Ages.  Charcoal of course was the first forge fuel and continued in use in parallel to coal up until this day.  

The use of coal to smelt iron from ore commercially in the West is ascribed to Abraham Darby in the 18th century by coking the coal first to drive off many impurities; (Sulfur is bad for iron and steel---and breathing it is bad for humans)  

Melting steel to make ingots that could be then forged into items is also an 18th century innovation, (Benjamin Huntsman), in the West though done over 1000 years earlier in place like Merv. 

Mild Steel was the product of the Bessemer/Kelly process in the mid 19th century; with the open hearth, BOF, etc following on.

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2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Flat rate is a time and materials calculation. Bid the work and the faster, better and  more efficient you are the more you earn and the less wear and tear you put on yourself. There's a good reason manufacturers don't charge flat rate. If they do a one off job the charges are punishing. See what Ford would charge for a custom made one off car. You'd have to buy the company.

I'm not faulting you, it's your decision. It's not like we do this because it's the easiest fastest way to hang a latch on a gate or put hardware on a door. We do this because we like the craft. That you make a living at it is admirable. Heck I'd be happy if it paid for itself.

Frosty The Lucky.

So you bid every job?

.If so you still have an hourly rate based on previous experience.

There is a difference between a bid, quote, or retail cost..

This back ground information is what allows for you to make an educated bid as well as how closely you cut the margins, and what will be the overall profit.., (bid competing against other bids or quote (projected or estimated costs based on like objects or experiences and not against other bids)..

usually materials are not part of shop rate..   Materials get billed + business percentage  (IE handling or transaction fee if you will, added on top of net (shop purchase (wholesale))cost passed onto purchaser, retailer, end user.. as an billed  example 150lbs of 1018 @ 4.00 per pound= 600.00 

Invoiced price to business at wholesale was only 3.00 per pound.  Or 450.00   mind you this is only and example..  and if bidding this kind of job depending in how badly you want the work will depend on what you figure others will charge in competing bids.

For a business not to have an hourly rate or at least a ball park figure on how much they need to make per hour or per job unless that business is cash rich with an over abundance of work, would soon be out of business..

Shop rate ideally is based on what it will take to account for your personal well being (can/are you able to make a decent living, retirement, vacation, health insurances, all expenses at the home as well as at the shop... and any employees as well as equipment..

A decent living depends on location, retired with steady main income, etc etc..

I used to always quote jobs and those jobs were based on knowing how long it took to make an item like it everything was custom, Then misc stuff like bolts and such would be added in as well as materials and even coal...

Bidding a job can become a job all its own as nearly everything has to be accounted for or else you can lose your shirt.

Flat rate is based on much more than just time and materials if taking everything that costs you, daily, monthly and even yearly and also looking into the future (in case of)..

 

 

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When I hear "Traditional blacksmithing", I think of the time from circa colonial days to the later 1800's.  I would guess that most Americans do too.  That time period is what we see most often on TV and  in the movies and that's what we see in the re-creation villages in the states, (like Williamsburg and Old Sturbridge Village).  That may change with the medieval and fantastical medieval movies that are popular now.  

A deeper discussion of "Traditional blacksmithing" is usually confined to people like us and places like this.

 

 

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Spanish colonial goes back a bit further; my town in New Mexico was named in 1598 for instance.  

There are some major changes to blacksmithing over that time period: including the move to using coal here in the Americas, the switch from wrought iron to mild steel, the rise of the factory---does a factory in the 1860's running a large number of forges in an industrial setting count as Traditional?  After the US Civil War the great increase in increase in things like hand crank blowers and bottom blown fire pots...

Unfortunately most people ideas are fueled by Hollywood and fantasy books and so their blacksmithing knowledge is a bit skewed.  Even most historical sites tend to have only a single person working the forge due to cost and volunteer constraints,  (Large ones like Williamsburg excepted; but compare their smithy to one like "Ohio Village".), which presents a false view of historical blacksmithing.

An interesting take on the period is to read the blacksmithing section in Moxon's "Mechanicks Exercises" published in 1703 but mainly written in the last half of the 17th century.

So we get "historical traditional" and "fantasy/Hollywood traditional" for a colonial period that should include the English, Dutch, French and Spanish colonies in America. Frontier blacksmithing should be a totally separate area and it had a huge impact on how Americans view the craft---smaller smithies and a much wider range of smithing done when you are the only smith for a week's trudge!

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I think there is an ideal or a vision a person has both of costume and of building neither of which I adhere to nor was saying to be traditional..  because they dress the garb or work in a vintage shop means little..

 

My distinction is in forging skills and items made as well as tools used... progressive use of modern machinery, modern being limited to power hammers (drop, helve, steam, water, beam, human, tec)or hydraulic hammers since both have been used as far back as possible..

Again it becomes the skill set even more so than the finished product..

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The use of the term "traditional" seems to me to be so broad as to be nearly useless. I think "period blacksmithing" qualified by location/ culture makes much more sense. At least then you have some sense of what is being talked about, even if a one man shop may not be considered pure "period"

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