Savage

Help please. It is driving me insane

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Hey guys so ive made a new forge from an air compressor and a new 1 inch burner and for some reason my burner flame doesnt seem to wanna stay put it keeps jumping from a good clean cone shape to just plane blue flames and is making a wierd sound i can only describe as a combination of a bottle cap rattling and a popping sound. The burner parts ive used are the best i can find in my area and the burner tube is the longest i could find in one section so i got 2.

Burner parts are as follows: 

2 1 inch nipples 4 inch long

2 1 inch to 1 inch connectors 

A 1 inch T

A 1 inch to 1/2 inch bush

A 1/2 inch brass plug center driller to fit my jet inlet

A .8mm mig tip (ive tried varias sizes with no change)

A stainless steel tube for gas supply with the end threaded for the mig tip.

Im unsure of the real names of these so bare with me. Please if anyone can see why this isnt working please point it out because im usualy not too bad at getting these going. I have the burner connected to a 9kg lpg bottle with a 0-15 psi regulator which ive used flawlessly in the past with my 1/2 inch burner setup this burner was idetical to the new one except it doest require a bush to convert it from 1 inch to 1/2 inch for burner jet tube. Pics will be added for referances.  Thanx for any help20170805_211711.thumb.jpg.e909cfb443d77a03c74a3f86859894b6.jpg

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Forgot to mention the flame as ignites inside the burners down tube so basicly instead of burning at the end of the burner like it should itll be lit inside the tube 

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Forgot to mention the flame as ignites inside the burners down tube so basicly instead of burning at the end of the burner like it shoukd itll be lit inside the tube 

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Savage: I don't understand why you can't buy 1" x 8" pipe nipples but I live on the other side of the planet. I hear you have trouble finding unplated pipe too, you want to clean the galvanizing off the hot end, burning zinc is a health hazard, ODing can be really serious.

At first blush your burner isn't inducing enough combustion air, even when it's burning at it's best. Try pulling the end of the jet farther back. (increase the jet's "Set Back") Looking straight in the intake port try positioning it less than half way to the burner tube. That should help. Post a couple pics and we'll see what we can do to get it tuned up.

I'm thinking your jet might be too large but don't change it :o till we've messed with it's set back first. Okay? We're going to do this one thing at a time it'll go much faster that way, Honest. I'm not a side arm burner guy but they're similar enough to winkle this out.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Hey Frosty, as always your the first to help so thanx.

Firstly thanx for the warning about the galv burning although im aware of it already its good to see people out there still care for others.

As to the 1"x8" your guess is as good as mine ive literally looked at every local store in my area for longer nipples but all they stock is the small ones i got, there is a store abit further awaythat aparently stock a number of specialty connections including black pipe but my problem is i only get off work 3 days a month and all my days are on the weekend when unfortunately this store is close not to mention its miles away from my area grrrr. 

As to your advice for adjusting the gas tube a bit further up the burner body I have honestly tried every position it could be in including as far back as the brass plug alows, this is why i am pulling my hair out at this.

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So pulling the gas supply tube back only seems to make that wierd noise get louder and more unstable sounding. I might be wrong in saying this but could a almost empty bottle be causing this? I know it sou ds dumb to questioning that at this stage but i can still here liquid in it and it still has enough pressure to burn the 1/2 inch burner set up no problems.

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Savage: Can you slow down on the keyboard please, it's kind of hard reading through the spelling or maybe come up with something so you can feel when your hands are out of position. That may seem like a non sequiter for tuning burners but it isn't really. You need to slow down. I know 3 days a month means you have to make every second count but hurrying actually slows you down where you don't want. You  need good results not speedy mistakes.

As far back as possible doesn't tell me anything except maybe your construction technique is getting in the way. Have you shortened the mig contact tip? The way I build the T there isn't anything to adjust so you must cut the mig tip. 

How far back can you adjust it. Do NOT tell me something like "all the way" that's meaningless. How about adjusting it and taking a picture straight in the intake port so I can see it.

Do you have someone to collect mail when you're out of town? If so, buy the correct parts online if you have to. It's better to build things correctly the first time than it is to spend hours and money trying to get a poor relative to work. Look up Larry Zoeller's version of a side arm burner. Mixing and matching seldom works unless you have experience. 

For example, you're using 1/2" pipe for the gas supply IN the burner! WHY?!! As far as I know everybody who actually makes these things work uses 1/8" scd 80 pipe nipples. BECAUSE the ID is perfect for tapping to fit a mig contact tip without all the junk you used to make the connection. 

Another example of why using the random pipe you have is a bad idea being. You DO know having the gas jet aligned straight down the mixing tube is essential. Yes? You've added 3 extra areas of error: #1 The hole you drilled in the cap, #2 tapping that hole and getting the contact tip to fit correctly, (Okay that's two but I'll call them one) Oh yeah, #3 the cap and nipple connection are NOT precision threads so there is always wobble, #4 the mount for the supply pipe in the T fitting, I don't know how many ways that misalign the gas jet. The bigger the sliding joint thingy the bigger the slop. 

The ONLY way you could get that group of plumbing parts to work is if you used a lathe to drill and tap the mig contact tip hole. 

Your most recent post just came in. Yes it's still sputtering. I just laid out why it's still too far out to tune. Expect it to burn back till you correct your build.

I'm sorry if I'm being short with you but we keep getting guys trying to build burners that have very good plans available from the people who know what they're doing and talking about. Then folk just lash some stuff together, mix designs, wonder why they don't work and want the folk who do know to help them fix it.

My best advice to you is. Scrap this mess. Pick ONE set of plans and follow it. Do NOT modify them, do NOT combine plans, do NOT make some thing some guy on Youtube says is THE way to do it.

My blood sugar might be getting a little low and my coffee pot is empty. I'm not going back and edit to be "nicer" though.

Frosty The Lucky.

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To begin with, what you have built so far, is called a side-arm burner; it is a failed design. You would be much better off to rebuild it into a "T" burner.

Rejoice! Your minor burner problem has slowed you down enough to fix a major problem with your forge, before its too late. You need to re-position your burner opening, so the the burner's flame will impinge on the forge floor's nearest to the burner side, and about one-third of the way in from the floor's near edge; this will give you the best use from your forge. Where the burner opening is positioned now, would give you the least heat in exchange for the shortest use of your insulting refractory wall; a very bad bargain indeed.

You lucky devil; aren't you glad you had burner problems now? :)

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Ok sorry guys i should of mentioned a few things. Firstly the reason im using the 1/2 brass plug drilled (on a lathe as well as the stainless tube for gas delivery) is because i had this made a few years ago for my 1/2 i ch burner and right now im not in the position to get a 1inch plug drilled as i jave no access to a lathe anymore and also i have limited tools including lack of a drill this brass plug is perfectly center even with the 1/2 to 1 inch adapter in place. 

 

I will attach some more pictures to give you guys a better idea of the burner design, if someone in the us is willing to collect these items i would be more than willing to pay for them aswel as shipping, i know thats a lazy way of doing it but the people on here will know exactly what to get aswel as what theyre called. 

Let me know what you think of the pics

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The welding tip and stainless supply line can literally go all the way to the brass plug, you could hold even just the tip of the mig tip in with that set screw, as well as this it can also go right the way down the burner mouth so it has fully adjustability with that part, i dont currently have a choke on this due to not having a drill.

 

2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

To begin with, what you have built so far, is called a side-arm burner; it is a failed design. You would be much better off to rebuild it into a "T" burner.

Rejoice! Your minor burner problem has slowed you down enough to fix a major problem with your forge, before its too late. You need to re-position your burner opening, so the the burner's flame will impinge on the forge floor's nearest to the burner side, and about one-third of the way in from the floor's near edge; this will give you the best use from your forge. Where the burner opening is positioned now, would give you the least heat in exchange for the shortest use of your insulting refractory wall; a very bad bargain indeed.

You lucky devil; aren't you glad you had burner problems now? :)

Thanx for the advice, i didnt mention this but i dont plan on using it as a side burner forge i just stuffed it up when i cut the hole so all i will do is shift the insulation abit so that the burner points straight down into the fire bricks instead of the kaowool wall

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You don't really understand what we're saying do you? 

Contact Larry Zoeller and buy a burner or kit. You've either missunderstood or are disregarding everything I've said so far.  If you look at the last picture you just posted you can easily see the jet is misaligned. To work AT ALL the jet must be aimed straight down the mixing tube. Your's is WAY off and surprise of surprises it appears to be pushed off center by the set screw.

I have to disagree with Mike, the side arm isn't a failed design. Properly mad they work quite well. Your's unfortunately is a failed build. Contact Larry or Wayne Coe and buy a kit. Seriously you'll be much happier and have a good working burner.

Frosty The Lucky.

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43 minutes ago, Frosty said:

 If you look at the last picture you just posted you can easily see the jet is misaligned. To work AT ALL the jet must be aimed straight down the mixing tube. Your's is WAY off and surprise of surprises it appears to be pushed off center by the set screw.

Frosty,

While I completely agree with you regarding sticking to a single design and following it slavishly if you don't want to have to go thru the development trials that the designer has to make the burner function well, it may be possible that the extreme visual off-center of the mig tip in the photo is more due to parallax in the photo than actual construction.  Don't have to tell you that photos can be deceiving...

43 minutes ago, Frosty said:

I have to disagree with Mike, the side arm isn't a failed design.

Side-arm burners I've seen have bullhead reducing tee fittings, and specific ones that have the correct taper if I remember correctly.  If you insist on making one I suggest you get the correct fitting.  These won't be available in a normal hardware store (at least not over here), you will have to go to or contact a plumbing supplier.  Of course it should be easy to source the correct part online.  You might also want to confirm that your mig tip isn't obstructed and that you have your propane regulator at the correct setting (what is the correct setting?  Don't know for your burner design, but I'd start at around 3 psi and work up from there).  Of course you have no way to meter the air other than the mig tip location, so may have to play with that as well.

43 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Contact Larry Zoeller and buy a burner

This is the easiest solution to your difficulty if you need to stay with a NA burner.  Of course you could always cross over to the dark side and build a blown burner.  These latter are less critical to build and easier to tune in my experience, but that is just me.

Also, in the name of safety, please seal your refractory blanket insulation (which you could use more of, unless I am mistaken and you actually have 2" insulation thickness).

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2 hours ago, Frosty said:

You don't really understand what we're saying do you? 

Contact Larry Zoeller and buy a burner or kit. You've either missunderstood or are disregarding everything I've said so far.  If you look at the last picture you just posted you can easily see the jet is misaligned. To work AT ALL the jet must be aimed straight down the mixing tube. Your's is WAY off and surprise of surprises it appears to be pushed off center by the set screw.

I have to disagree with Mike, the side arm isn't a failed design. Properly mad they work quite well. Your's unfortunately is a failed build. Contact Larry or Wayne Coe and buy a kit. Seriously you'll be much happier and have a good working burner.

Frosty 

Thanx for all the replies guys i will make an update when i have some improvements with this design. Buying a burner would be my first plan if i had the money which i dont and wont for a while as im saving for my wedding so at the moment all my extra funds are going to the wedding fund. I will just play around with it until it fixed.

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2 hours ago, Latticino said:

Frosty,

While I completely agree with you regarding sticking to a single design and following it slavishly if you don't want to have to go thru the development trials that the designer has to make the burner function well, it may be possible that the extreme visual off-center of the mig tip in the photo is more due to parallax in the photo than actual construction.  Don't have to tell you that photos can be deceiving...

Side-arm burners I've seen have bullhead reducing tee fittings, and specific ones that have the correct taper if I remember correctly.  If you insist on making one I suggest you get the correct fitting.  These won't be available in a normal hardware store (at least not over here), you will have to go to or contact a plumbing supplier.  Of course it should be easy to source the correct part online.  You might also want to confirm that your mig tip isn't obstructed and that you have your propane regulator at the correct setting (what is the correct setting?  Don't know for your burner design, but I'd start at around 3 psi and work up from there).  Of course you have no way to meter the air other than the mig tip location, so may have to play with that as well.

This is the easiest solution to your difficulty if you need to stay with a NA burner.  Of course you could always cross over to the dark side and build a blown burner.  These latter are less critical to build and easier to tune in my experience, but that is just me.

Also, in the name of safety, please seal your refractory blanket insulation (which you could use more of, unless I am mistaken and you actually have 2" insulation thickness).

I agree Latticino the angle of the camera makes it look worse than it is. It's still WAY off. The misalignment is also visible in the flame.

I've come to the conclusion that people building their first burners should ignore PSI entirely, lose the gauge even. The only use I've ever found for the gauge is repeatability so I don't have to eyeball flame intensity to repeat a temperature and conditions in the forge. 2 psi is extremely low pressure for a burner drawing air so poorly and new guys just get too hung up on reading a gauge and drying to match what somebody else's burners run well under.

We've got to get his basics straightened out before anything else makes a difference and I see by his latest post he wants to waste tie ad money on a failed burner rather than do it right. Oh well.

Keep us posted Savage if you get close enough we can help we'll be around.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Ok can one of you please link me to an online store that sells the correct parts i might be able to get some tooks if i take a drive to my friends house its abit far away but i havent forged anything in 3 years so its becoming abit much and i dont want to bother you guys anymore than i have. 

Ps i have no idea what these fittings are called in countries outside of new zealand so i have trouble looking for them on google

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Savage, Jerry Frost's latest T burner design sheet is easy to build if you have access to a drill motor ( electric hand drill) a bimetallic hole saw that fits the ID of your burner tube, a couple of taps and a die, you already have most of the parts. As he is a member, it's on IFI, and he has a vested interest in seeing it work ( ego you know)... 

Btw, side arm referees to the burner design not the burner placement. 

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Ok i will look itno his design once i find it, hopefully my area stocks the extra parts i need. I have a drill thats broken so if i can get it to work some how then thatll be good but im not good at all at drilling straight holes lol

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http://www.blacksmither.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/T-Burner-Directions-finished-1.pdf

here is a link to the pdf. Sorry it's in American, not the Queens English. It also has a bit of a Californian accent. But I trust if a brain damaged old cranky diabetic can build it so can you. 

You use the hole saw as a drill guid if you don't have a buddy wish a drill press you can bribe with a pint or two

 

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21 hours ago, Savage said:

Ok i will look itno his design once i find it, hopefully my area stocks the extra parts i need. I have a drill thats broken so if i can get it to work some how then thatll be good but im not good at all at drilling straight holes lol

try Mc-master Carr supply

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On 8/7/2017 at 7:55 PM, Charles R. Stevens said:

http://www.blacksmither.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/T-Burner-Directions-finished-1.pdf

here is a link to the pdf. Sorry it's in American, not the Queens English. It also has a bit of a Californian accent. But I trust if a brain damaged old cranky diabetic can build it so can you. 

You use the hole saw as a drill guid if you don't have a buddy wish a drill press you can bribe with a pint or two

 

Can you explain the hole saw thing sounds interesting 

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By finding a bimetallic hole saw that fits in the "T", and removing the 1/4" guide drill from it, it becomes a centering guid to drill the hole to tap for the 1/8" pipe fiting that holds the mig tip come gas jet. This is if you do not have acces to a grill press

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32 minutes ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

By finding a bimetallic hole saw that fits in the "T", and removing the 1/4" guide drill from it, it becomes a centering guid to drill the hole to tap for the 1/8" pipe fiting that holds the mig tip come gas jet. This is if you do not have acces to a grill press

Hey thats actualy pritty vool idea thanx for shating that i will definitely consider it. Looks like my drill just needs new motor bushes so ill search around and try find new ones thanx.

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I just have to just sit back and watch, between Charles' and Savage's lousy spelling I'm laughing too hard to want to break the trend. 

If you have to use the hole saw guide trick it needs to fit the threads of the T closely so you have to grind the teeth off the hole saw to prevent it ruining the threads. You're going to need the threads to screw the mixing tube on. The hole saw trick is ONLY a LAST RESORT! You MUST know someone with a drill press you can use. A lathe trumps them all but a hole saw WILL work but it'll take skill and luck.

You have to go to a PLUMBING supply NOT a big box or local hardware store. A plumbing supply WILL happily cut and thread any length nipple you need for a small added fee if that. However, 8" is a common length for virtually any Dia. pipe nipple. What professional plumber goes to Wall Mart for supplies except maybe an emergency. 

Oh I HOPE that didn't break the spelling bee!

Frosty The Lucky.

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