Need advice on HT a home made anvil

[Beatsy' s Forge]

     I am building an anvil from fork lift fork or 4140. The dimentions will be 5 in wide 8 in high 15 in long with out the horn. the horn will be turned down from a large catipilar bucket pin and welded on after the HT. I will be constructing the ASO by cutting several sections of 4140 at about 6 in long drilling several holes in them and stacking them side by side preheating and plug wedling. Along with chamfering the seams and welding all the way around. Then plug welding using hardface rod and welding the 15 in face to the welded body. I then will have the top machined flat then using coal heating to critical and water quenching. I know that generally 4140 is a oil quenching steel but since it is very thick I was wondering if water would be fine. I will round the edges a bit to hopefuly stop any cracking. if it is successful I should reach a Rockwell of 50 to 55 or a little harder.

    This is what I was planning on trying so before I went and hurt myself I thought id ask the pros.... Any help on the subject will be greatly appreaceated.

Thanks to anyone that replys

 

 

[arkie]

I'm sure others here will pitch in on suggestions, but for one, I would do your horn welding before any heat treatment.  The HAZ (heat affected zone) from the welding will probably remove heat treatment near it.

[Beatsy' s Forge]

I am considering this . I however was not sure if it would generate that much heat . Thinking about it now after your post yea I  am sertain you are right and that is a good suggestion. 

I was thinking of welding the horn after because I was not going to put it right next to the table. I actually was going to put a step in. Making the horn about 2 or three inches from the hardened table.  Although you are probably right about the heat . Oh yea I  wasn't thinking of it at the time but I will need to preheat the ASO before adding the horn anyway.

Thanks, You brought up something that I overlooked. 

[Glenn]

What is the expected final weight of the piece?

After everything gets good and hot and ready for the quench, how are you going to deliver the water to the anvil assembly? How much water do you expect to use for the full quench?

[Beatsy' s Forge]

2 hours ago, Glenn said:

What is the expected final weight of the piece?

After everything gets good and hot and ready for the quench, how are you going to deliver the water to the anvil assembly? How much water do you expect to use for the full quench?

Glen,

     I was thinking the weight of the ASO in the end should be around 200+ lbs. If I add a Base to it , It will weigh over 200lbs. As far as quenching I have a couple thoughts. The first is I could get the fire department to help with a hose and Hydrant. This way I would not need to leave the house. The other option is Near me there is a fish ladder with a couple water falls that are shallow enough for me to were some waders and get the ASO under the falls . The falls are only around 3ft high at the one spot and at the other the falls are about 5 ft high. Either one has high water flow. I would realy prefer not to have to leave the house and let the fire dept. hose it down.

      Glen in your opinion will either of these work? if I were to use the local FD I could get a large tube like a water trough to flood with the hi volume water hose. I realize that there may be an issue with a steam jacket no matter which way I cool it but I was thinking a high pressure fire hose may lesson that steam jacket. Just an educated guess.

    Dumb Question, Do you think a super quench will help meaning does the soap and salt help limit the steam jacket?

    Thanks for the question now I just need too figure it out.

     Martin

 

[BeaverNZ]

Hi There

Have you though of just doing a surface heat treatment, This is where you just heat and quench just the first few mm of thickness by using a moving heating tip or tips followed by water jets and also using the heat sink of the object you are heating to also absorb the heat. The pictures below are of surface hardening setup I made years ago to heat treat the inside of the cylinder rod or trunk guide of my model traction engine. You can see the four heating tips and the multiple water jets it worked very well though I did get quite wet you could make a bigger version. You need acetylene flame though as it has the required pinpoint heat just off the end of the primary envelope of the flame Im not sure if propane would do the job but time may tell Cheers Beaver

[Beatsy' s Forge]

This is interesting thank you for you comment. I really didn't give a shallow harding any thought but I did thibk of heating it. I have about 600 lbs of coal and 10 more yards available so other than not having a torch heating is no issue. My thoughts on hardening were I will heat the top plate until she reaches critical temps wether the body is heated does not really matter to me, I think. I was thinking of the fire hydrant for the sure volume of water but the only way I could access it is with the local FD. I am sure they would be game, I live in a small town and they don't have much to do sooooooo. The other thought was to use the local river were there is 2 waterfalls 1 I could get in with waders but it could be a bit dangerous thinking a bit more about it. So I think I could use the FD or just go for it and DIY the whole thing use a garden hose a high pressure water pump for agitation and see what happens.

 

Fingers will be crossed and but will be water tight. lol

Cheers back at ya,Martin 

[BeaverNZ]

Lol I grew up in a small community and it was amazing what could be achieved by barter or a box of beer- the universal currency. I had a thought I hadnt explained how the surface treatment worked, the torch is held very close to the workpiece with a high flame setting and the water turned on and the torch is moved flame first so there is a quick heat/cooling and its done. Of course this only works with a high carbon and hardenable alloy steels Cheers Beaver

[Beatsy' s Forge]

Beaver,

     lol yea those guys would handle I'm sure. I think they are thirsty every day say right.  Your heat treating idea is a great idea and I would like to try it sometime. Thanks for the great idea and images of the procedure.

Cheesr back at ya, Martin

13 hours ago, BeaverNZ said:

Lol I grew up in a small community and it was amazing what could be achieved by barter or a box of beer- the universal currency. I had a thought I hadnt explained how the surface treatment worked, the torch is held very close to the workpiece with a high flame setting and the water turned on and the torch is moved flame first so there is a quick heat/cooling and its done. Of course this only works with a high carbon and hardenable alloy steels Cheers Beaver

 

[ThomasPowers]

Charles McRaven mentions having the local VFD use their high pressure hose to quench an anvil face in "Country Blacksmithing" . You really need a lot of water and pressure to do an anvil as they create a large steam blanket and you can miss the hardening nose if you are not blasting water through it--unless you use a high alloy modern steel for the total face that has a much longer time for quenching .

[Beatsy' s Forge]

Thomas Powers,

     Let me start by saying thank you for commenting. To your recollection does the book Country Blacksmith reveal his success using the local VFD.

I am aware of the steam jacket though. In your professional opinion will the local VFD be successful at the HT? I was concidering another quench using a large trough similar to the ones used for watering cattle. Using a super quench formula of salt water, dish soap, a large water pump for circulation. I am however concerned with the steam jacket in either procedure but if a super quench is used does the soap, and saltwater mixture help limit the steam jacket effect? Or I have another possibility I could get a large amount of Motor oil and transmission fluid mixture say 50 gal. Although I realize this is a flammable quench but if one had a way to extinguish the flames would this be a better option due to the steam jacket effect? I live in a country setting and the my neighbors are not the kind of people that will call the local PD if one farted to loud lol. So I guess what I am getting at is if there is a smoke cloud it will go unnoticed. On the other hand one would still need to move the piece when quenching so this is why my thoughts were with using a water quench. In case you missed it I will be using fork lift forks (4140) isn't that a high alloy modern steel? Not intended to belittle you in anymeans I was just woundering if you may have missed that in previous postings.

      I look forward to your reply and your knowledge is also welcome so please if there is any thing you could recommend on this issue or help put me in the wright direction it would be greatly appreciated. In the meantime I will take a look at the book you mentioned if I can find it for free (download) on the inter web.

     Again Thank you, Martin

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

Charles McRaven mentions having the local VFD use their high pressure hose to quench an anvil face in "Country Blacksmithing" . You really need a lot of water and pressure to do an anvil as they create a large steam blanket and you can miss the hardening nose if you are not blasting water through it--unless you use a high alloy modern steel for the total face that has a much longer time for quenching .

 

[ThomasPowers]

Are you sure they are 4140? Or is this a guess?  I've seen forklift times of 1050 and 5160 as well as 4140.

4140 is water quench in large masses.  I would consult a metallurgist if I was worried.

Superquench helps; but does it help *enough* in large masses? I don't know.

I know a person who used to quench up to  8" diameter 4140 in "highly agitated water" (anything over 2" in diameter used water) and had trouble keeping the water below 100 degF   This was his job as a heat treat metallurgist for a large steel company.

 I have contacts with the local VFD who would probably want to do it at their station. 

I WOULD NOT USE A FLAMMABLE QUENCH WITH THAT MUCH HOT METAL!!!!!!!!!!

I WOULD NOT USE A FLAMMABLE QUENCH WITH THAT MUCH HOT METAL!!!!!!!!!!

I WOULD NOT USE A FLAMMABLE QUENCH WITH THAT MUCH HOT METAL!!!!!!!!!!

(not to mention that that much hot steel would raise the temperature of 55 gallons of oil way too high for the quench to work right, The previous mentioned HT Metallurgist said their oil quench was also "highly agitated" and had a heat exchanger to keep the temp down)

Charles McRaven was happy with how his turned out; but as mentioned his anvil was not 4140.

Avoiding quench cracking is the real issue!

If I get a chance tonight I will check out suggestions in the ASM Manuals; Heat Treat is volume 2 as I recall.

And suspending 200 pounds of metal with at least one end hot enough to quench in 55 gallons of oil seems to me to be a highly dangerous activity!  I hope you were thinking of using a crane with a long boom to do it!

[Beatsy' s Forge]

On 7/26/2017 at 1:54 PM, ThomasPowers said:

I WOULD NOT USE A FLAMMABLE QUENCH WITH THAT MUCH HOT METAL!!!!!!!!!!

I WOULD NOT USE A FLAMMABLE QUENCH WITH THAT MUCH HOT METAL!!!!!!!!!!

I WOULD NOT USE A FLAMMABLE QUENCH WITH THAT MUCH HOT METAL!!!!!!!!!!

extra edited

 

Mr,Powers, 

         I was trying to avoid oil all together due to the danger. This is actually why I have posted the advice post.  I honestly am not sure that it is 4140 it was a somewhat educated guess.  From what I have read the forks I have and am going to be useing are 4140 but ummmmmm. You never know I got them from a Catapilar loader if this means any thing. I can however not have someone test it for me. My funds are low. I could however cut a piece heat and quench it in water just to getan idea on if I can get it hard enough to be a decent ASO. My idea of using the local VFD holds strong and this is how it will be done. I will look into your suggestion in the mentioned research.  Thank you for the literature and were to find it. I never thought of the steel not being something other than 4140 but on the other hand I can see how 5160 would work great. I however could not find any thing on Catapilar forks as to what steel they are. Perhaps someone here can chime in and let us know. 

    I will keep you in the loope so to speak.  After I do some home testing I will post the results . I knowthis will not tell mewhatkind of steel it is but at least it will let me know if it will harden enough to use as an ASO. I will quench in water chamfer the edges to help reduce cracking and see what happens.In the meantime I will try and find out what type (types) of steel Catapilar uses for these forks but I am hoping that on account they are made in the USA Ican only hope it will produce something rewarding.

    If there is anything else you can help me or direct me with I would be more than happy with your response. Along with anyone else who has some great info for this project.

     Again thank youlooking forward to your help and reply. 

Martin

[ThomasPowers]

No you got it totally wrong it will not harden enough to be an ASO; it will harden enough to be an ANVIL and any of the alloys I have seen used for forklift tines *WILL*!  

An ASO is something that looks like an anvil but is not made from materials that will survive being used as an anvil for very long---cast iron is the usual example.  Anvils have looked different from the London Pattern for 10 times longer than the London Pattern has been around; so not looking like the London pattern anvil does not make it an ASO.

Testing your planned HT is a great idea; especially if you can modify it to reflect the smaller size used for testing.

I figured you were too smart to do the barrel of oil and 200 pounds of 1500+ degF steel; but I included that warning for all the other people who do not have any background---I mean we get people here trying to line forges with plaster of paris and sand!

Keep us informed, we like folks who are doing their own research *FIRST*!

[Beatsy' s Forge]

3 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

No you got it totally wrong it will not harden enough to be an ASO; it will harden enough to be an ANVIL and any of the alloys I have seen used for forklift tines *WILL*!  

An ASO is something that looks like an anvil but is not made from materials that will survive being used as an anvil for very long---cast iron is the usual example.  Anvils have looked different from the London Pattern for 10 times longer than the London Pattern has been around; so not looking like the London pattern anvil does not make it an ASO.

Testing your planned HT is a great idea; especially if you can modify it to reflect the smaller size used for testing.

I figured you were too smart to do the barrel of oil and 200 pounds of 1500+ degF steel; but I included that warning for all the other people who do not have any background---I mean we get people here trying to line forges with plaster of paris and sand!

Keep us informed, we like folks who are doing their own research *FIRST*!

ThomasPowers,

     Thank you for the ASO correction lol. As far as shape it really didn't matter much to me buuuuuuuut if I had my choice (like I do lol) I would like to shape it similar in fashion to a German double horn. But even if I do not shape it and it is just a block with a Hardy hole and possibly a pictrill Hole It would be a satisfying feat.

   On a different note. The horn I have a large bucket pin its about 4in in dia. I was wanting to have my friend turn it to a point and cut a 45 to the large end. It unfortunately or fortunate it is already hardened. I am not entirely sure but the way my machinist explained it , it was several different hardenings . Including a chrome alloy of some kind on the outer most layer. On the other hand I really do not recall his direct words, so anyway. Also I was thinking of not only welding on the horn but there is a threaded hole in the one end were it gets bolted to the bucket. I was considering utilizing the threads by welding a threaded post on the anvil and so on. The thought I had by doing this was to strengthen the horn. Perhaps a little over thinking. What do you think? Also since it is already hardened do you think I may be able to get away with just welding on a section of (something with some shear strength) threaded stock and screwing the horn onto the anvil after HT. ummmmmmm???? Just thought of that one lol. What are you thoughts on this.

    Again thank you for your sharing your wealth of knowledge with me. I very much appreciate it,  You can bet I will do some final research before the HT . When I am ready I will be posting some images. Oh yea now that I have you. What are your thoughts on electrodes my thought was just use 7018 for the body. The shear strength is good not to mention I really do not have any shearing points except for the horn. I guess if I can utilize the threads I would not need to worry about the shearing lbs. of the electrodes. Just to let you know I am going to be using a brand new 2017 Hobart stick welder. Not that it matters but I thought id mention it. I mean who don't like NEW TOYs..... OH  and whats wrong with using Plaster and sand for a forge lining lol,lol,lol,lol.... That's pretty funny but you are very right there are loads of people that are misinformed so I thank you for expressing the danger of my earlier post. I would hate to here of someone who tried something mentioned by myself and had a catastrophic failure of worse.            

     Looking forward to your reply, Martin

 

[ThomasPowers]

Horn: since you will only be doing light work on it; that should work fine.

Horn: since you plan to do heavy work on it; that won't work well and it's the welding that will provide the most strength.  Don't forget to treat everything like High Carbon steel when welding on it! And don't weld on chromed sections---remove it before welding (the area around the weld)

 

 'Go not to the Elves, (or curmudgeons), for counsel,  for they will say both no and yes.'

[Beatsy' s Forge]

30 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Horn: since you will only be doing light work on it; that should work fine.

Horn: since you plan to do heavy work on it; that won't work well and it's the welding that will provide the most strength.  Don't forget to treat everything like High Carbon steel when welding on it! And don't weld on chromed sections---remove it before welding (the area around the weld)

 

 'Go not to the Elves, (or curmudgeons), for counsel,  for they will say both no and yes.'

Mr. Powers,

      I would have to say that I know not to weld chrome and thank you again for adding this. Depending on what sort of work we as Blacksmiths call light or heavy work depends on the smith I suppose, Since you said light work on a horn that can be so called removable would be ok. You pretty much made my decision for me . Considering that the weight of the anvil will be 200 or so lbs. I think I should weld the horn on due to the fact you never know when you may need to put the horn threw its paces as the say.

      Thanks for the great comments and the interest in influencing me to do a bit more research . It has been fun going back and forth on this and I appreciate you putting up with my questions With this said I want to pry a bit more since you didn't answer lol. As I mentioned the pin is already hardened do you think I can get away with welding it on after HT?  I know it probably wont work and my better judgment is telling me to HT the whole thing soooooo? I also Have 3 Kilns that I think are large enough to put the piece in and get an accurate temp. prior to HT. Do you think this is a better option than a coal fire that I can not accurately hold a temp and possibly over heat the face. Actually I just got the Kilns today so this is why I didn't ask earlier in this posting session. I really don't think I need 3 Kilns . I live in southern Michigan and am willing to part with one if you know anyone. Also I think I should cycle the anvil a few times to normalize her prior to HT in my opinion this should help releave any stress put on the steel while welding and get rid of any hard spots created while welding. How can I keep the preheating to around 300 degrees F. so I can get good penetration and strong welds. Do you think if I heated it once to my desired temp that welding on it should keep it heated enough or should I use a weed burner or the kiln to keep the heat as even as possible. I ask because I would think that an even heat threw the entire process improves the success of the project. OK one more question and I am gonna call it a night just kidding lol, I forgot what I was gonna ask lol.(brain fart).

 

    Martin

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

Horn: since you will only be doing light work on it; that should work fine.

Horn: since you plan to do heavy work on it; that won't work well and it's the welding that will provide the most strength.  Don't forget to treat everything like High Carbon steel when welding on it! And don't weld on chromed sections---remove it before welding (the area around the weld)

 

 'Go not to the Elves, (or curmudgeons), for counsel,  for they will say both no and yes.'

  

[ThomasPowers]

Welding supply stores should carry tempil sticks to allow you to control your preheat.  I would not run a chromed surface through heat treat. I would mount the horn low enough that the face heat treat is not affected also assuming you are tempering the body to be tougher than the face.

How will normalizing relieve stresses any more than heating to austenitizing temps prior to quenching?   What normalizing can do is to refine the grain structure; I don't know the state of your metal or how much that alloy suffers from grain growth----I'm more of a knife guy when it comes to heat treating. (Like I know S1 does not profit from normalizing...)

If you offset the horn from the face you can place the face in a pan of water to help keep it cool when welding.

Follow the welding directions for the alloy you are using with regard to preheat and post heat/cooling.  However if you have the entire mass heated to the preheat temp then it will take a while to cool down!

As for kilns: you may notice that your state is on the USA's northern border and my state is on the USA's southern border.  Shipping would be excessive.  I'd contact the MABA group and see if anyone there wants one. (I'm in Mexico right now at work...)

[Beatsy' s Forge]

Mr. Powers,

 

    I thank you for your assistance in this . I was unaware you were working. Man what a bother I am lol.

 

     After I get every thing together I will stay in touch.

6 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Welding supply stores should carry tempil sticks to allow you to control your preheat.  I would not run a chromed surface through heat treat. I would mount the horn low enough that the face heat treat is not affected also assuming you are tempering the body to be tougher than the face.

How will normalizing relieve stresses any more than heating to austenitizing temps prior to quenching?   What normalizing can do is to refine the grain structure; I don't know the state of your metal or how much that alloy suffers from grain growth----I'm more of a knife guy when it comes to heat treating. (Like I know S1 does not profit from normalizing...)

If you offset the horn from the face you can place the face in a pan of water to help keep it cool when welding.

Follow the welding directions for the alloy you are using with regard to preheat and post heat/cooling.  However if you have the entire mass heated to the preheat temp then it will take a while to cool down!

As for kilns: you may notice that your state is on the USA's northern border and my state is on the USA's southern border.  Shipping would be excessive.  I'd contact the MABA group and see if anyone there wants one. (I'm in Mexico right now at work...)

 

[ThomasPowers]

My job is interrupt driven, too little work or too much depending on issues in the factory.  My lunch hour gets moved around on a daily basis too.

[Beatsy' s Forge]

the company

7 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

My job is interrupt driven, too little work or too much depending on issues in the factory.  My lunch hour gets moved around on a daily basis too.

Well son of a ..... Sound like what I retired from. The company I worked for contracted work to our local and National steel mills. My hours were on call 24/7 and you guessed it when we were working there were so many hrs. you didn't now when you would be home I learned a lot and ran work for 13 years, seen things like ladle pores into a Blastfurnace, molting metals/iron and much more. The kind of stuff the average joe only sees on the TV. Unfortunatly I had to take a medical retirement. on the bright side though at least I know were I'm going and how long I will be there now. Plus (this is the best part) I get to spend time with my kids (3 boys) 19,14,3.  the older ones remember me gone all the time for days it seemed like. I worked so much I didn't know what day it was. Its kind od sad though, when I first retired my older boys didn't no what to do, how to act and such. Well hell neither did I . Now over the years we seemed to have adjusted and I found a few things to keep me content like , Bladesmithing, oh, I paint to mostly abstract but , The things I now do have driven my creative self into a direction I would have never had the opportunity to even find if life had keeped me working like that but anyways.. All is good now and to be real honest at 41 I feel very fortunate to have retired now that I look at it . I get to enjoy many things now that I was not..

     Martin 

[Beatsy' s Forge]

Mr Powers,

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 0:24 PM, ThomasPowers said:

Welding supply stores should carry tempil sticks to allow you to control your preheat.  I would not run a chromed surface through heat treat. I would mount the horn low enough that the face heat treat is not affected also assuming you are tempering the body to be tougher than the face.

How will normalizing relieve stresses any more than heating to austenitizing temps prior to quenching?   What normalizing can do is to refine the grain structure; I don't know the state of your metal or how much that alloy suffers from grain growth----I'm more of a knife guy when it comes to heat treating. (Like I know S1 does not profit from normalizing...)

If you offset the horn from the face you can place the face in a pan of water to help keep it cool when welding.

Follow the welding directions for the alloy you are using with regard to preheat and post heat/cooling.  However if you have the entire mass heated to the preheat temp then it will take a while to cool down!

As for kilns: you may notice that your state is on the USA's northern border and my state is on the USA's southern border.  Shipping would be excessive.  I'd contact the MABA group and see if anyone there wants one. (I'm in Mexico right now at work...)

ThomasPowers,

 

     In an earlier statement you had mentioned keeping the face plate in a pan of water to help keep it cool while I weld on the horn.  I asked this question earlier in a conversation so I will as you , on account it was not recommended .  I am assuming you said this because I would be welding the horn on after HT keeping in mind to mount the horn low enough to not overheat the faceplate when welding.. If this is so I figured it should be fine due to the fact that I would be in essence tempering the body down while welding.. I'm I correct ? If this will work is IYO I should be able to HT only the face, Having the body already assembled Place the faceplate in said water weld the faceplate to the body without HT ing the entire piece Leaving the body softer than the faceplate. Then as noted above weld on the horn. I could set up the water tray with a pump to circulate the water from a larger source to enabe the water to stay cool while welding..  If this is a good idea It will save a lot of time and my back..  Let me know your thoughts on yhis or if I misunderstood and should abandon my thoughts as mentioned in this post and just HT the entire piece as planed then weld the horn on and so on using the previous mentioned method.

 

Be safe at work and get back with me at your convenience, Martin   

[ThomasPowers]

The anvil will self quench and may have HAZ cracking if it's not properly preheated before welding. This preheat should be BELOW or at the tempering temp of the face---check welding recommendations for the steel used!  They should also cover how to let it cool after welding.  As a LARGE mass it may be OK with an air cool.

If you are worried about preserving the hardness of the face, the pan of water trick should help.  If the horn is mounted far enough from the face then it is probably not needed---you might get a temple stick for the face as a warning just in case. (note if you use the pan of water do not set the face against the bottom but place a piece or two of 1/2" sq stock in the pan to set the anvil on allowing water circulation.)

If you need more help than this I suggest you consult a professional welder; preferably a welding instructor at a local community college.  Who knows they might do it as a class project!

[Beatsy' s Forge]

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

The anvil will self quench and may have HAZ cracking if it's not properly preheated before welding. This preheat should be BELOW or at the tempering temp of the face---check welding recommendations for the steel used!  They should also cover how to let it cool after welding.  As a LARGE mass it may be OK with an air cool.

If you are worried about preserving the hardness of the face, the pan of water trick should help.  If the horn is mounted far enough from the face then it is probably not needed---you might get a temple stick for the face as a warning just in case. (note if you use the pan of water do not set the face against the bottom but place a piece or two of 1/2" sq stock in the pan to set the anvil on allowing water circulation.)

If you need more help than this I suggest you consult a professional welder; preferably a welding instructor at a local community college.  Who knows they might do it as a class project!

Mr. Powers,

     Thank you very much for your share of knowledge and you taking your time to answer the many complex questions that I had. Along with any warning notes that have been noted .

     Thank you for your time, Martin