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Thin damascus project, pharmacy spatula


Jclonts82

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I have a colleague (pharmacist) who is moving in a few weeks, and I thought I'd make something nice for him as a parting gift. My idea is to make a 'counting spatula' ( What we use to count all y'all old cranky curmudgeons Flomax with) out of patterned steel. I have only made 5 or so damascus projects, all of them random simple folds for patterns, 1 being a knife. But never something this thin. Its about 1mm thick. My plan is to to get a billet made with ~70 (+/- 15) layers, then twist it to reduce the need to grind for pattern appearance. 15n20, 1095,  I plan to etch with higher concentration HCl (~20%) first for topography, then finish with ~7% FeCL3 for appearance.

 

My main concern is getting it as thin as it needs to be. I'm willing to go thicker than the standard, but want to keep it as close to these real examples as possible. How thin should I try to hammer out the steel?

My initial thought is get it to about 1/8 inch then grind to final dimensions. My fear is if I go any thinner and I have any scale, or a stray hammer blow in there I wont be able to grind through it and still have usable material left...

 

My second thought is heat treatment. I know that hardness affects pattern in the etch, but this being as thin as it is, I don't think I want to quench at all, plus the real thing is quite flexible so that property would be ideally retained.

 

 

I appreciate any thoughts on the matter from those with more experience and knowledge than myself. 

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not a pond and eye pattern? 

I'd experiment to see if you can flatten the twist to 1/2 and grind the rest.  If it shears when pounding it out you may have to go with more grinding.

Since you've said NOTHING about the carbon/alloy  content we can say NOTHING about the heat treat.

And No Flomax I had a TURP!

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8 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Since you've said NOTHING about the carbon/alloy

End of 1st paragraph... I'm pretty wordy in my posts, might have missed it. 1095 & 15n20

 

 

I have never tried a pond and eye, not entirely sure what that is, I will let Dr. google take over for that one.  

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The modulus of elasticity (flex for a given load) is identical for hardened and unhardened steel up to the yield point of the unhardened piece. Since you don't want the spatula to ever take a set (yield), I would harden it. The hardened steel will be able to flex farther without taking a set . 3/32" to 1/8" would be a good place to stop forging IME.

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14 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

I'd do a caplet and eye pattern.

I looked it up, that could end up looking really nice. I've never done it, but I'm willing to give it the old try.

 

The billet im starting with is going to be roughly 1" W X 2..5" long, and i think about 1.5' tall... Its all the leftover pieces of stock from a large knife I made for father's day. It should be plenty of steel to try a few patterns. I think I will get the layer count up first, then split the billet into 2-3 pieces and with each one try a different pattern. A twist, a caplet and eye... maybe twist then caplet? Make one for him... one for me! It will depend on how much steel I have to work with. Thank you for the input, this could be really fun.

 

11 hours ago, bluesman7 said:

The modulus of elasticity (flex for a given load) is identical for hardened and unhardened steel up to the yield point of the unhardened piece. Since you don't want the spatula to ever take a set (yield), I would harden it. The hardened steel will be able to flex farther without taking a set . 3/32" to 1/8" would be a good place to stop forging IME

 

Good points. Try to make it 'springy'. and thank you for the confirmation of thickness to stop at.

 

 

I'm going to start this thing tonight... and since he doesn't know about it, if its a total failure, nothing really lost  but experience gained.

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So update, have the billet welded up, 6>12, 12>48 layers... good enough I guess.

 

I've never done a twist, or raindrop for that matter. My plan is to try both with simple wrought Iron to practice technique, 1/2" square I bought for $3. My plan is to run the iron all the way through the forge, as I have a smaller opening on the back end of mine. I will clamp the back end in a vice then manually turn the other end with a large pipe wrench. I'm figuring that I can keep it in the heat while twisting, thereby avoiding the temptation to twist while at too low of a temperature? 

I have read and watched where people round the corners to avoid inducing inclusions/cold shunts. Would there be an advantage (or an issue) if I completely rounded it first, not just the corners or a hexagon shape but all the way round?

I will try drilling various diameter drill bits and see how easy (read not easy at all) it will be to hammer the stock all the way flat after that. All practice done on the iron in an effort to avoid an oops it on the 6hrs hammered damascus billet. 

To twist the real thing, I will weld on the same Iron to each end, with the billet sitting right in the middle of the flame in the forge. 

Any thoughts or comments will be appreciated before I give it a go.

 

Thanks

Jason

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Twisting in the forge works well. I managed 15 full twists on this 1/2 square test piece, mild steel. On the real thing I will only go about 10 or so... I guess?

I cut off 1/3 of the billet and drilled holes for the pattern. I tried 2 different sized drill bits, at varying depths just to see how it works. When my arm relaxes a bit I will go back out in the heat and get it as thin as I dare.

The other 2/3 will get the twist treatment, 1/2 of it will be hammered to final shape, the other will get the drill in the twisted pattern... might be neat, might not be noticeable at all. I guess that is what the fun of learning is all about.

 

 

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Thanks for the ideas. Metalmangler, if there is enough steel I will try that for the plain twist pattern. 

I finished the metalwork on the drilled pattern, going to set it in some mesquite in a few hours or so. @ThomasPowers, thank you for that idea, I would have never thought of trying that. I learned quite a bit while doing it too. It was much easier than I anticipated to hammer the topography flat. I think I did it in 4 heats.

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The twist pattern differs depending on the amount of stock removal.  Most good bladesmithing books that deal with the twist pattern have a set of drawings of wjhat you get depending on how deep you grind.  I know Hrisoulas' books do!

As this was going to be a directed custom blade I though the pill counting blade should have a "pill" design in the metal; glad it worked out for you!

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On 7/23/2017 at 6:52 PM, JHCC said:

Elmo seems impressed. 

Elmo should be impressed!I I only fired up a forge for the first time on/about March 1, 2017.

 

Finished the first spatula project today, I will give it to him tomorrow. Rain has kept me out of the forging area, mainly because I would have to walk to and from in the mud to get there. But I live in the desert, rain is always welcome. So no new progress on the other 2 patterns. BUT at least I finished one. c

Set in mesquite wood, pinned with SS corby fasteners that screw together, vacuum impregnated with boiled linseed oil.  Im very happy with the results.

My own self critique: Had a few small spots of slag/crud that I didn't want to grind more stock for a few fairly insignificant spots. Holes for pins didn't line up centered... I measured twice and marked a line to drill on, but I guess the bit wiggled the steel, but close enough. Spatula not completely centered with handle, like 5-7 degrees off. In all, I'm satisfied with the success, and the flaws, more to learn from.

Thanks for looking

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I'm scared to REALLY try to bend it, but I can flex the whole thing until the tip is about 1" off center and it comes back true, the bend doesn't 'set', The stamped stainless ones we use at work are much more flexible, but they take a set very easily.

Since this thing doesn't need to hold any edge, I tempered it a little higher at about 400 F (well... according to the toaster oven I used...) until it was a dark straw, almost brown-ish in color. 

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I had the same thoughts, but that's as far as the little toaster oven would go. I considered taking a small propane torch, the kind that screws on to a little bottle, and heating it until blue, but its more of a show piece to put on your desk than a functioning item.

 

With the remaining billet I will try to temper higher with the other 2 Items I make. Would a blue color, from gradual passes with the propane torch, be more appropriate in this application? In my research and learning, the tempering cycle has a 'time at temperature' aspect to it too. I suppose on something that's more of a pretty novelty item that time isn't as important? I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

 

He loved it by the way, gave it to him last night and bid my farewells. He is off to Georgia to work for the CDC 

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Time at temperature has very little effect on thin pieces unless it's a very long time.  Two tempering cycles with quenching at the correct color will do a LOT more than one tempering cycle holding at the tempering temp for an hour.

I would try blue and see if it works.  This is the sort of thing you may want to do a test piece and then do your "good pieces"

For my presentation pieces it's important to me that they be *real*  and  usable.  

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1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

For my presentation pieces it's important to me that they be *real*  and  usable.  

I like that approach. I will emulate it in the future. 

 

With these spatulas however, Unites States Pharmacopea standards insist either plastic, or stainless steel having non-porous surfaces. Though minimal, porosity created by topography differences in the patterned steel would make this not up to par, especially for those unannounced state board inspections... unless I could seal the surface somehow and remain flexible... *brain gears start spinning* So real world use is not practical. But its just a good standard of practice to do everything correct, even if its gonna just sit on a desk as something pretty to look at. 

 

Thank you for the input and Ideas. Quite helpful.

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