Jump to content
I Forge Iron

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 844
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • 2 weeks later...

Okay, I suffer from "embarrassing stand-itis" and need a stamdecromy.  I have hesitated while perusing my favorite steel monger for options because of design doubts.  I have read many differing opinions on the layout of the legs and I would like to ask.  If anyone posts their steel stand here could they include their opinions on the ideal angle for the slope of the legs?  

Im aware of the benefits of sturdiness with wider legs but they also get in the way.  I wanted to know if legs on a steeper angle (closer to upright) confer an appreciable increase in rigidity or if welding struts between wider legs is just as solid.

Finally, has anyone combined a steel stand with a box of stand on top?

Apologies if I should have posted this in a separate thread...I just thought the discussion might add to the pictures of the stands.

 

Lou

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lou L.  Anytime you move a straight piece of steel at a slope and put weight on it you will lose rigidity..  It's the reason I did a complete rebuild on the stand in the trailer.. Using all straight pieces (with major gussets) vs sloped.. 

some would argue that because of the mechanics involved with kinetic energy  and such that it becomes a moot point and from a strictly scientific study that may be the case.. Same reasoning with Ball bearng bounce on anvil faces.. 

I want as much rigidity in the stand as I can get and ideally the stand should be embedded in cement or bolted down solidly.. 

While a tripod stand will give you a non rocking setup on just about any surface a properly designed metal stand can be as rigid as solid but I don't see this in a tripod design no matter where or how I see the design..  You would have to reinforce the mounting plate with pre stressed girders with a huge amount of gusseting to stabilize the steel from flexing or bowing, springing with each blow as well as just supporting the anvil itself.

  Cement does very well in compression.. Say you have a  1/4" wall 3" sq tubing. 3ft long.  If you add weight on the end of it standing up straight there will be deflection until the steel is compressed and the sides are tensioned enough to stabilize.. Fill the tube with cement and it will achieve rigidity nearly immediately when the load is applied.. Lolly column..     Steel being springy or flexible needs gussets or diagonals to stabilize  any fabricated/welded item.. 

Both the black widow stand and the one in the trailer offer the stability and solidness I was looking for but both took a lot of desire and removal or design features I disliked vs ones I needed to have..  In other words I engineered out all the things I didn't like in a fabricated stand.. 

Again the problems with steel is how do you get rid of the spring..   The easiest way to minimize the spring is to get the legs straight up and down and gusset heavily to stop flexing of the side of the pipe, tube or solid.. 

 

 

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 10:41 PM, ThomasPowers said:

and every one of those interfaces sapping energy!

+1

Unless they are all welded together with no air gaps between them.. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

a properly designed metal stand can be as rigid as solid but I don't see this in a tripod design no matter where or how I see the design.

You including mine in that? It's a tripod of 4" x 8" I-beam with the webs joined in a vertical seam under the center of the anvil.

I suppose that theoretically there's some infinitesimal degree of flexing, but that thing is a rock. 

Here it is during fabrication, before the top plate went on:

IMG_20160322_112703186_HDR.jpg

(Please excuse the messy welding.)

IMG_20160323_112120289.jpg

(Although it is worth noting that the legs are wide enough that their inside faces are within the footprint of the anvil, so there is at least some force going straight down.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Scrambler82 said:

Why, other than the thicker the better ?

That's the height of my current stand. With a solid block of steel, I wouldn't have to worry about leg design!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Do absolutes matter in the real world? Seriously, how much effect do a few hundred thousandths of an inch compression have in a human powered system? It's easy to get caught up in the quest for the best possible but does it really make a difference? Steel isn't rigid, by it's nature it compresses and rebounds or it wouldn't ring at all. The harder the steel the higher the frequency, shorter the wavelength and higher the note. The more homogeneous of the steel the longer it will resonate. Can you tell how much longer it takes for the ring to stop between a wrought body steel faced anvil vs a solid steel anvil? Are your perceptions good to a couple thousandths of a second? From the Egineering toolbox steel m/s 4880 - 5050. and who's anvil is a meter thick?

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sound-speed-solids-d_713.html

Vertical legs flex less than angled ones. However the more narrow the base the less stable under side loads, say bending in a fork.

Filling the structure with something with poor elasticity and worse rebound doesn't make the structure harder it just damps the vibrations so you can't hear it flexing. It spends energy rather than returns it to the work. Doesn't bounce or make your ears ring though.

All materials flex but vertical vs. angled is a structural question, not material. Closed triangles are the stronger(est?) structures. Vertical legs with connected feet are rectangular structures and so very flexible, each corner is a hinge, bending with the maximum moment of leverage of the whole structure against it. Closed triangles are very rigid as no matter which direction you try to flex it one edge is under straight compression or tension, not flexion. This is why stiffeners, in many cases gussets are triangles welded across corners.Fish plates work in a similar manner.

I have two main reasons for using a steel anvil stand: 1, it's MUCH quieter because it has a different resonant frequency from my anvils and so damps the ring significantly.

2, I can work very close, literally against the anvil when I wish, I often work against the far side and in some cases have my knees against the anvil's.

Wait!, there is a 3rd that's important to me. it's WAY lighter and easier to handle!

A steel plate under the anvil. I've used a few steel stands most with plate and haven't noticed any difference. Mine is held by the angle iron that makes up the top frame of the stand. The anvil is wedged into the stand by angle iron hammer and tong racks. A solid plate would make sense in a world of absolutes but does the body of your anvil flex enough to need reinforcement? To make a difference even a solid block of steel anvil stand would have to be welded to your anvil to make a significant difference.

Speculating about the utility and superiority of absolutes is fun but does it really matter in the real world? 

Frosty The Lucky.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The top of my stand is a piece of the same I-beam, notched in the corners to fit around the anvil's feet. I don't think it's superior to angle iron, certainly, but it certainly made a difference in fabrication, as I could run welds along the entire width of the legs' flanges and webs where they intersected with its underside. (And given my significant inexperience with welding, that was a very good thing.) That gave the whole thing a lot of resistance to torquing under load.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Scrambler82 said:

I was thinking thickness related to attachment point for Tool Rack

There was a thread last May started by a guy who had a very thick top plate into which he'd milled the tool holders. Check it out, especially the photos in the first post. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I love this discussion.  I have to be honest, one of my major concerns is cutting all the steel to make the stand.  Logan steel, my supplier, will cut to specified lengths for you for $10 and that seems like a deal to me considering that I would have to labor for a long time with a cutting wheel on a grinder to get less accurate results.  Problem is, I never go in there with a set design.  I always go looking for the steel that speaks to me saying, "I want to be an anvil stand!"  

Link to post
Share on other sites

The steel stand I posted earlier doesn't show any noticeable flex when I use it - it's very solid built. (I posted another pic so no one has to scroll back). I understand the design theory and engineering being discussed, but I'm pretty sure steel flexing is the least of my problems in real world conditions. I think a steel stand that is portable has a much larger issue in its movement to the ground. I use my stand in a gravel driveway - and it takes a bit of hammering sometimes before the stand digs in and becomes really set - you can tell the difference in the anvil sound usually too. I can't really comment on using this stand on concrete or other hard surfaces since I don't do that currently - but if you lag bolt it to hard anchor it as most guys do, that problem is removed in my opinion. But, I still think a well built steel stand is only going to suffer negligible amounts due to flexing. I'd be more concerned with problems involving anvil weight compared to the work being conducted than flexing.

IMG_3318.PNG

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JHCC said:

You including mine in that? It's a tripod of 4" x 8" I-beam with the webs joined in a vertical seam under the center of the anvil.

I suppose that theoretically there's some infinitesimal degree of flexing, but that thing is a rock. 

Here it is during fabrication, before the top plate went on:

 

(Although it is worth noting that the legs are wide enough that their inside faces are within the footprint of the anvil, so there is at least some force going straight down.)

Hi Sorry about that.. I was thinking commercially made stand but a lot of the tripod stands are also weak in the knees.. 

 

The stand you fabricated is the best design for that sized and shaped anvil I have seen.. It uses the sides and webs of the I beam to reinforce and stablilize.. I would still add tie in's to all the feet to help with load spreading and then add a way to bolt it down solidly..  

The heel of your anvil is within the foot print of the stand thus any shifting of the stand under load is decent enough to help with torsional rigidity.. 

It's the best in a tripod stand I have seen..    

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Do absolutes matter in the real world? Seriously, how much effect do a few hundred thousandths of an inch compression have in a human powered system? It's easy to get caught up in the quest for the best possible but does it really make a difference? Steel isn't rigid, by it's nature it compresses and rebounds or it wouldn't ring at all. The harder the steel the higher the frequency, shorter the wavelength and higher the note. The more homogeneous of the steel the longer it will resonate. Can you tell how much longer it takes for the ring to stop between a wrought body steel faced anvil vs a solid steel anvil? Are your perceptions good to a couple thousandths of a second? From the Egineering toolbox steel m/s 4880 - 5050. and who's anvil is a meter thick?

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sound-speed-solids-d_713.html

Frosty I would disagree strongly.. I've worked on Numerous stands,, Steel, cast iron, wood, Pipe, sand, steel shot, trailer floors, dirt. etc etc.   We talk about ergrodynamic and why stand straight up and swing from a certain posture.. Etc etc..   

What fails to get recongized by most is..   Work output is work output... If I can make something in 3 swings vs 6 swings of the hammer it becomes so important to work smarter.. 

From and engineering stand point you can mathamatically prove that there is a best ratio for an object moving at a certain speed and at a certain mass what the object will in theroy do or act..  Problem is we are not machines.. We are flesh and bone.. The dynamics on how we swing the hammer, the way we absorb that impact makes a world of difference.. 

1/100000 of an improvement in how I can effect the metal I am moving means for 100000 swings of the hammer I have done that much more work..   LOL..  Every bit of energy I can put into moving the metal becomes so important at the end of an 8 or 10 hr forging day.. Also don't forget it's not just one day or 2 days.. It's hundreds of days with millions of hammer swings..   :)   

And yes, I can tell the difference between a good base/stand and a not so good one in 2 hits.. 

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Vertical legs flex less than angled ones. However the more narrow the base the less stable under side loads, say bending in a fork.

Filling the structure with something with poor elasticity and worse rebound doesn't make the structure harder it just damps the vibrations so you can't hear it flexing. It spends energy rather than returns it to the work. Doesn't bounce or make your ears ring though.

All materials flex but vertical vs. angled is a structural question, not material. Closed triangles are the stronger(est?) structures. Vertical legs with connected feet are rectangular structures and so very flexible, each corner is a hinge, bending with the maximum moment of leverage of the whole structure against it. Closed triangles are very rigid as no matter which direction you try to flex it one edge is under straight compression or tension, not flexion. This is why stiffeners, in many cases gussets are triangles welded across corners.Fish plates work in a similar manner.

I have two main reasons for using a steel anvil stand: 1, it's MUCH quieter because it has a different resonant frequency from my anvils and so damps the ring significantly.

2, I can work very close, literally against the anvil when I wish, I often work against the far side and in some cases have my knees against the anvil's.

Wait!, there is a 3rd that's important to me. it's WAY lighter and easier to handle!

A steel plate under the anvil. I've used a few steel stands most with plate and haven't noticed any difference. Mine is held by the angle iron that makes up the top frame of the stand. The anvil is wedged into the stand by angle iron hammer and tong racks. A solid plate would make sense in a world of absolutes but does the body of your anvil flex enough to need reinforcement? To make a difference even a solid block of steel anvil stand would have to be welded to your anvil to make a significant difference.

Speculating about the utility and superiority of absolutes is fun but does it really matter in the real world? 

Frosty The Lucky.

Again I disagree.. But you also have to keep in mind I look at this kind of thing from all facets of what or how I use the anvil..  I work with heavy hand hammers on the side of the anvil hitting back towards myself.. A 175lb anvil on a 230lbs stand will walk its way around the shop easily when working on the horn or heel.. :) 

Bending forks, long heavy bars, fulcrum points, only one arm to hold stuff while forging, small hammers, large hammers, 

For most newbies or intermediates it probably won't make a bit of difference.. But does this mean sloppy mounted anvils and stands should be the norm.. I know for a fact if you take a student who has only forged on a floppy anvil and you give them a solidly mounted one.. Which they will like better.. YOu will also see their work go up.. 

Now take them and put them on a solid stand, with anvil mounted soildly and again there is another increase..  

What one has to ask themselves is"   How much longer does it take to make a very well made stand  vs making it again" once I figure out what I want or like?

And again,, Yes, it does matter, flex and spring does matter..  If someone only uses a 1lbs hammer it won't make much difference but my largest hand hammer is 9lbs, my normal work hammer is 4lbs because I'm out of shape.. My normal work hammer once I get back in shape even though I'm 14years old I hope is a 6lbs hammer.. 

It certainly makes a difference..   Work smarter.. Not harder   and yes it can be argued to buy a power hammer..  Ah, sounds like your working harder with big hammers.. 

LOL..  

It really comes down to each there own..   Lead by example.. Work done, and speed which the work is done starts to show knowledge..   There is always someone smarter..  It becomes can they apply that being smarter to something that is applicable to what it is that is being done.. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, JHCC said:

Thank you!

(And to think folks accused me of overbuilding....)

Not quite sure what I want to do for anvil stands design wise when I get the school up and running but your design is the leader of the pack.. Simple in design, offering decent rigidity..   

I have 40 i beams which might fit the build when the time comes.. Ideally I want to offer both wood and steel stands as well as gas, coal and wood fired forges with both electric or hand crank so people can experience the differences.. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Not quite sure what I want to do for anvil stands design wise when I get the school up and running but your design is the leader of the pack.. Simple in design, offering decent rigidity..   

I have 40 i beams which might fit the build when the time comes.. Ideally I want to offer both wood and steel stands as well as gas, coal and wood fired forges with both electric or hand crank so people can experience the differences.. 

And the three legs are essentially identical (apart from needing different beveling on the flanges), so easier to mass produce. If you have a flat top plate instead of I-beam, you can simply cut that to shape, weld it on, and drill bolt holes to mount the anvils in place.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Did I say a sloppy stand is okay, anywhere EVER? If I did, please link me and I'll correct it immediately.

You once said in reply to a post of mine, justifiably admittedly, that you don't like to argue. However you don't mind interpreting numbers in an exaggerated manner to try to make a point. You seem to equate a millionth of an inch in increased deflection as one blow in a million or was it one part in a million. That is just argumentative to no point. It doesn't equate except in . . . . Nevermind.

I certainly can tell the difference in stands, good ones to good ones, good anvils from great anvils. What does that mean? Or are you trying to imply by differing with you I lack the experience to judge?

If your anvil wanders when you use the ends or sides, sweep your floor. Or, mount it on a round plate and wipe a bit of silicone calk on the bottom. NO don't glue it to the floor, squirt a bit on the bottom, wipe it around with a rag and let it dry. It won't go anywhere without lifting it off the floor.

I'm not taking any of this personally, you just trigger my debate mode and I used to eat your kinds of argument for snacks. You argue angels dancing on pin heads and I say we don't live in that world. Even CNC machine shops don't usually work to the mil and we're talking about hand hammers and eyeballs.

If a person REALLY wants to know if their anvil stand compresses under a 5lb. hammer driven by a human being. Clean the floor and cut a glass rod to fit between the anvil or stand and the floor, give the anvil a smack and see if the rod breaks. If it breaks then cut a soft aluminum rod to fit, measure it, place it, give it a smack and and measure how much it's been compressed.

If anybody wants to know how to actually measure this stuff rather than fantasize about absolutes give me a shout I'll drag out the materials lab references on testing and equipment design. Field testing should do for most but . . . let me know.

I wish we could sit at a coffee shop or work together in the shop Jennifer we both enjoy arguing, it'd be fun. B)

Frosty The Lucky.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Mod34 pinned this topic

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...