Mtn_Troll Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 I am looking for the potential viability of starting a smith/fabrication shop in Southern Alberta. I have a background in Industrial fabrication, metallurgy and my family did a lot of custom fabrication. I have been working metal and welding as well as creating things since I was 8 years old. In my current role I do not get a lot of exercise and the process of creating software for someone else is really unfulfilling. My intent is to branch when i get my own place this year and to start to work up to a fabrication shop. I would like to explore smithing as well because this is something apparently my Scandinavian family did a lot of and was known for in Norway. I have a forged visa which dates back a couple hundred years. So I am on here to determine viability and how a person starts down this road? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 a big part of it is what type of forging you will be doing. industrial, decorative, tool making.....? I know of more successful smiths than smiths who have failed at there business. Only know of one smith who wasn't successful. Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 First learn how to run a small business. Here in the USA we have a branch of Government that will help you nad various programs to help you get started. I'd check for something similar in Canada. Also is there a market for your work? Do you have enough capital built up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 On 7/4/2017 at 10:27 AM, littleblacksmith said: I know of more successful smiths than smiths who have failed at there business. Only know of one smith who wasn't successful. Littleblacksmith I think that's an incredible statement that very few people could truthfully make. It's my considered opinion that the vast majority of entrepreneurs fail within two years. I have yet to encounter an established industry without a thriving market for two year old used equipment. My background is in construction estimating. Construction industry statistics for start-up's are at a 95% failure rate over their first two years. I see people consistently approaching a business in terms of what they feel like doing. Their enthusiasm for a particular vocation leads them to believe that "Build it, and they will come" is a cogent business strategy. It's not. Half-understood economic concepts will cost you full price tuition in the school of hard-knocks. Take supply and demand for example. Let's say there's no local blacksmithing shop in your area. The enthusiastic entrepreneur wants to see this as an under-supplied market which means their services will be in strong demand. This overlooks the possibility that there may be no local market for a blacksmiths products. In 2017, that will be the reality in most places. It's been my experience that hard work, honesty, and intelligence are admirable qualities that have little to do with business success. Spotting an opportunity and timing your efforts are the keys to success. The first shop to market has to overcome a lot of inertia to build a reliable business. Often that requires debt, patience, and humble pie. The second shop to market can walk in knowing who the paying customers are, what the going rate is, and how to offer a better value for more profit. With less uncertainty, there's less risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 1 hour ago, rockstar.esq said: I think that's an incredible statement that very few people could truthfully make. Well, lets see, face to face I only am friends with 5 full time blacksmiths. The one that I had mentioned who failed was an ornamental ironworker who did no forging but ordered the parts and welded them together, more of a fabricator, so I guess I lied some by saying it was a blacksmith. Hope that helps back up your statement about me not being truthful when I said that. I then know of plenty full time blacksmiths from the internet. I don't know of any who have tried and failed, though I'm sure there is plenty on here and elsewhere. I never said that there are more successful smiths than non successful, I said that I KNOW of more successful smiths than failed ones. But, we obviously know different people, obviously. Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 Rockstar; did you take in account his age? He hasn't had decades in the craft to meet folks who ended up failing out of it. Not dissing him; I wish I had started smithing that young! The crash of the 90's hit folks hard; LBS, how old were you during the dotcom bust? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 As Thomas said, I'm sure as I continue I will meet more people. I had to look up the dotcom bust, what I found was it was from around '97-01, and I was born in 2001, so when I was born it was starting to pass over. I'm pretty sure now that's what ended it for you the ironworker I know, I remember him mentioning a collapse and how it was what put him out for good. Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 I don't think that rockstar was hinting that you were not being truthful, just that you might be making a statement subject to misinterpretation. I think you will find that not all that many folks who have failed businesses talk about it that much. Also, you need to qualify what is a failed business means to each of us. Is it dropping into bankruptcy or just realizing that the lifestyle you lead in that business is not the one you desire. For example I ran a small hot glass studio for many years and always kept in the black, but had I not had a supportive wife who picked up more of her share of our living costs I would have been living pretty rough. Eventually the stress, uncertainty, and physical toll took me back to my earlier career as an engineer. Was that a failure, or just a career choice? I think that you will find that while there are a lot of smiths on the forums, it is only a small percentage who make a living as a full time smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 Most people would be surprised to find out that statistically, the average after tax profits of business in the USA (sorry, I don't have Canadian numbers) for the classification of "fabricated metal products" is about 3%. It's one of the lest profitable businesses you can plonk your money into. Obviously smithing is a subset with a potentially higher return (especially when your salary is considered part of the profit) but the numbers still aren't very good. As a craft business, it's also feast or famine so you need to be able to cover long drought periods of no cashflow. The problem with this business, as with most small businesses just starting up, is that assumptions for sales are almost always inflated in the mind of the person starting that business. Many give advice to assume at least 2 years with zero income..I would probably say 5. Doing better than that is simply a gift from the ether. Having a spouse who makes good money in a "real" job helps a ton..but they have to understand the nature of the thing so you don't get accused of just playing at the forge all day while they do the real work. The other common mistake is underestimating the time which needs to be put into sales and marketing. Figure 50% minimum doing the same boring "bookwork" which one is trying to avoid to spend time at the forge. Nothing happens without a sale (in business terms) so the focus needs to be on making the SALE, not the part. If that doesn't appeal to a person, they really need to work for someone else instead of running their own. On the other hand, sometimes things do work out--they do come by word of mouth because your stuff is desirable. That basically means you have a hobby business and it happens to grow. You can't rely on that rare occurrence, though. There are only so many family members, friends and friends of friends you can sell a knife to before that base tops out (same thing happens in amway and avon. I bring those up because they are pretty easy examples of the concept of running out of easy people to market to). In short, I wouldn't. I would start a hobby business and try and make it work but would keep the other income in the meantime. You'll know when and if you can cross to full time on your own. It isn't when you start doing well, its when you consistently do well for a VERY extended period. FYI, I'm in fabricated metal products with about 20 employees and worldwide sales. It aint easy and its awfully hard to make "fun"when it has to be a real business and you need to make sure 20 families have stable lives and paychecks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 Little blacksmith, I did not mean to suggest you weren't telling the truth. I meant no offense and apologize for the misunderstanding. As Latticino and Thomas have both eloquently pointed out, different experiences over different periods of time handily explain both points of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 Well said! I always tell folks I run my forge at a dead loss so I don't have to make a business of it and can enjoy it as a hobby. I have a number of friend who tried to work their craft as a business and it was not a fun thing at all. (Most small craft businesses are 1 medical issue away from bankruptcy here in the USA.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 14 hours ago, rockstar.esq said: Little blacksmith, I did not mean to suggest you weren't telling the truth. I meant no offense and apologize for the misunderstanding. As Latticino and Thomas have both eloquently pointed out, different experiences over different periods of time handily explain both points of view. Apology accepted, and I apologize for responding in a somewhat jerky way, though I hope you understand where I was coming from, In that I misunderstood and took what you said the wrong way. As I said already, I'm sure over time I will see your side more. Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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