natenaaron Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Pardon my ignorance but what is Can Welding. Google keeps bringing up different kinds of cans and Aluminum welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Sealing the billet materials away from oxygen, contamination, etc by placing them in a "can" often a piece of sq tubing with ends welded on; but other methods of making the can work too. Once the billet materials are placed the can is fairly well sealed---a small pinhole will prevent popping during heating and a bit of paper or oil will scavenge any oxygen in the can, then it's heated and forge welded like "normal". The can will generally need to be ground off the final result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jclonts82 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Also try plugging in "canister welding" or "canister damascus" into google, can is more of a shortened cannister. *Edit: wow... question from Feb... Thought I saw a new post and commented... was it accidentally pinned to top of forum? yes, pin removed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Which brings up a question I never took the time to look up. On the FIF TV show, they always harp on canister welding using liquid paper as a coating on the inside of the can to prevent sticking. That just seems like a huge cludge of a solution. What would a proper option be to do the same thing? What/how is something like Liquid paper accomplishing that task? Burning off to form a graphite layer or something? Just smells like some bad idea from the past that caught on as SOP--but never having experimented or researched, it might be the cat's meow for the job for some oddball chemical reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 5 hours ago, Jclonts82 said: *Edit: wow... question from Feb... Feb. 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 White out or liquid paper forms a good resist for other processes like etching too. It forms a layer that prevents iron and steel from welding, guys been doing this for years. No, graphite might as likely make the layers weld more easily by upping the carbon content at the joint, reducing the melting temperature. One of our guys has been experimenting pretty successfully adding charcoal powder to anhydrous borax flux. I think he's adding too much but the stuff works really well now. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 5 hours ago, Frosty said: No, graphite might as likely make the layers weld more easily by upping the carbon content at the joint, reducing the melting temperature. One of our guys has been experimenting pretty successfully adding charcoal powder to anhydrous borax flux. I think he's adding too much but the stuff works really well now. Frosty The Lucky. Is that working by lowering the melting temperature (which isn't really relevant, since forge welding is a solid-phase process), or by scavenging oxygen from inside the weld, thus preventing scale formation? 5 hours ago, Frosty said: White out or liquid paper forms a good resist for other processes like etching too. It forms a layer that prevents iron and steel from welding, guys been doing this for years. I seem to recall seeing something in a 19th-century source (maybe Richardson's "Practical Blacksmithing"?) that talked about using a slurry of ground whiting (chalk) and a binder (varnish? shellac?) painted on to the part of your work piece that you didn't want to weld. That's practically the same as White-Out. Memory could be faulty, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 10 hours ago, Frosty said: White out or liquid paper forms a good resist for other processes like etching too. It forms a layer that prevents iron and steel from welding, guys been doing this for years. Frosty The Lucky. I was mostly curious as to why liquid paper was considered so "special" for this---it's not that cheap a solution and it seems like there should be either a specific product or a better targeted formulation to prevent sticking. I obviously haven't tried it or been around anyone can welding but from the little I've seen on FIF, it has a pretty high failure rate in that rushed situation. According to wiki, "Current MSDSs list Liquid Paper as containing titanium dioxide, solvent naphtha, mineral spirits, resins, dispersant, and fragrances" I'm guessing that it's the titanium dioxide which actually does the job in smithing and the rest is just to create a spreadable/drying carrier for the TiO2. Titanium dioxide is common and cheap--You can get a 5 pound bag for 30 bucks on Amazon including shipping or a single pound for about $ 16 USD. That would last an average smith half a lifetime if an appropriate carrier could be chosen. If you mixed as needed, you'd never have that frustration of your little bottle of liquid paper being dried out (they seem to last only a year or so in the shelf) Anyway--it was just a curiosity as I am not in the realm of can welding and don't expect to be any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Yes to both John, the carbon scavanges oxy reducing scale back into clean iron and CO2. Take a closer look at how a solid phase weld works and you'll see how lowering the melting temp effects things. If it didn't matter we wouldn't be welding in a forge. Kozz: There SHOULD be lots of things available, I'm still miffed the flying cars promised us by 1970, at the 1962 Seattle World's Fair haven't shown up. I'll bet nail polish would work especially if you mix a little garden clay with it. If you go by an art glass supply you can buy several types of release agent to prevent molten glass from sticking. From refractory papers to a paper like product I can't recall the name. Any should work. As hard as we need to work to make sure joint surfaces are clean tells me that all you need is something to get in the way and I like TiO a lot for the roll. Things don't work as expected on FIF because of time restraints, stress, pressure, HEAT, stage lighting, etc. While I've never used Whiteout as a weld stop I'd sure as heck let it dry before putting the stock in the can, even if I had to pass it in front of a forge a couple times. On the other hand the only time I've tried a canister weld I screwed it up on several counts. Wrong steel, and used my home brew borax and boric acid flux. I think you're right, Whiteout is too expensive, how about just buying some titanium white acrylic paint at the art supply, Ala Bob Ross? That's a good thought, thanks. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 I think Bob Ross painted with oils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 hour ago, JHCC said: I think Bob Ross painted with oils. Darn, you might be right I haven't watched Joy for a while, it comes on at odd hours when it does. I know he used acrylics but he used oils too, lots. Cant forget the water colors either. He listed everything you needed at the beginning of every episode. His name is on a line of acrylics, I have a set but it might not be what he used most of the time on the show. Darn we should vote someone who canister welds often see if any art paint TiO will make a good weld stop. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) JHCC & Frosty, You can buy high grade titanium dioxide powder at a large art supply store. The powder is used to make artist grade dry pastels. (dry as opposed to oil pastels.) It is mixed with distilled water and a binder such as gum Arabic, gum tragacanth, etc. etc. The powder can be mixed with other pigments such as lampblack to make a whole set of pastels of various values. Or it can be mixed with other colored dry pastel powder to make different colors. (for example titanium dioxide and cadmium red make pinks etc.) Of course titanium dioxide can be used for all manner of other purposes. All these different pigment colors can, also, be bought at the same art stores or on line. I have been making my own pastels for years. By doing so I can get the exact shade, tint, and value that I desire for art work. Bob Ross worked in oil media and also acrylic. His product line of materials are still available. But titanium dioxide powder is cheaper and you do not have to contend with the oil medium in the tubes of color. Frosty, Bob ross spent 20 years in the American air force. Most of that time in Alaska. SLAG. Edited June 17, 2017 by SLAG correcting atrocious penmanship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 7 hours ago, SLAG said: Frosty, Bob ross spent 20 years in the American air force. Most of that time in Alaska. SLAG. On one episode of "The Joy of Painting", Bob Ross observed, "God was having a good day when he made Alaska." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasent Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Just an FYI. White out can often be found at the dollar store Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 I knew Bob Ross lived here I didn't know it was as an Airman though. Most of his evergreens are Spruce a few Douglas Fir and most of his deciduous trees are Birch with a few Cotton woods. Just like forests around Anchorage. Funny how his mountains bear a strong resemblance to the type formations here too. Eh? I'll bet you can buy a bucket of TiO2 white for what one tube of Bob Ross brand would cost. What would be a good binder for a weld stop and not gas us out? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Mr. Ross, Spent most of military career at Eielson A.F.B. in the Fairbanks area. Has anyone tried using a dilute, sugar in water, solution as a binding agent? SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanternnate Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 White out is readily available for purchase without needing to find a specialty store. It might not be the cheapest route, but qualifies as cheap enough. It might not be the best, but qualifies as good enough. When something is cheap enough and good enough and easy to get, there is little motivation to find something slightly better or slightly cheaper but more of a hassle to find or have to make. That would be my take as to why you still see so many just use white out over having developed some replacement concoction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 Agreed but the price of White out came up and we started brainstorming alternatives. Sugar water might work as a binder and that'd be cheap and easy. I was thinking dlute wood glue, "Elmer's" Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.