Alan Evans Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 I remember hearing somewhere that the power station turbine spindles took weeks rather than days to cool down after forging. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, Glenn said: Once you get your head wrapped around the size of the stock, then ask yourself what size fire do they use to heat that much metal to forging temperature, and how long dies it have to remain in the fire to soak up that much heat? Yeah no kidding!! I was just thinking that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 You ever seen a driveshaft for an aircraft carrier or battleship? I remember how impressed I was the first time I saw a metal lathe where the tool holder included a chair for the operator to sit on during use---WWII era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Well the bit of the lathe he was travelling on is called a saddle! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 18 hours ago, Alan Evans said: When you say "most people" you need to qualify it, unless of course you have evidence to support? Maybe most people on this forum, or most beginner blacksmiths, or most part-time blacksmiths, or most hand-forging blacksmiths. Most of the blacksmiths that I know around the world are full time professionals using power hammers, and tongs that size are definitely everyday. For example, here is my everyday tong rack...on the post on the right foreground are a 3/8" to 3/4" set of Off Centre Forge tongs and some Hofi tongs for size comparison. I presume those are the size you consider normal people use. As I said earlier, I generally hold larger pieces by other means, but these tongs are certainly not just "for decoration". You are stating the obvious. Tong is proportional to stock size. If the blacksmith forges large stock he needs large hammer/power hammer and large tongs. That changes nothing, it is still the exception and not the rule. Most blacksmith use average size tools. Some doing sculpture or industrial stuff use large tools. Not sure what your point is short of a size contest. And just in case, the size of the stock does not make for a better professional. Just like you wouldn't use a 3" tong to forge a rose, you don't use a 1/2" tong to manipulate a 3" shaft. Is the blacksmith that forges 1/2' stock a beginner, part time or "hand forging"? Says who? Is the one forging 3" a professional? Not from what I can see forging in China. All is relative and size contest is ... well ... not very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 You seem upset with my posts for some reason. What makes the information I shared a size contest? You appear to have taken it as boastful. I have simply stated and showed what I use in answer to the OP question. And yes, it is obvious to me which is why I wrote it. Would you prefer me not to share my experience with the forum as it is evidently at odds with yours? In spite of the images I showed, and my saying that most of the blacksmiths I know/have visited/met commonly work pieces larger than 1.25", you state again that it is exceptional. Please do tell us how you know this? Who devised the rule to which you refer? I begged to differ with your sweeping statement that it was not what "most normal people" use. I do not see myself as abnormal, that was the joke. I gave my reasons to say it is normal...that in my experience the smiths that I have met around the world are not restricted to pieces of metal smaller than 1.25". How many Damascus knife billets are smaller than this as one example? I asked you to give me evidence to support your statement in return. And you have not yet done so. You now make a statement that "Most blacksmiths use average size tools"....Well yes of course I agree...that is how an average is loosely calculated. But what is that average size you have decided on? I have given my (anecdotal and pictorial) evidence that 1.25" is well within the range of normal. Where is your evidence that this average size does not include 1.25"? I am sorry to read that you find the size of other blacksmiths' work a contest rather than interesting. I have always been fascinated by it, whether larger or smaller scale than mine. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Most blacksmith use average size tools. Of course they do If not. they would not be average. Is this a joke?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Well I hope it was a joke. Given that Marc1 also claims to somehow know what most blacksmiths do (if there was an international survey it did not include me for one) I rather think he meant it seriously, hence my serious response asking for information. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 in logic it would be a Tautology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrambler82 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Had to lol that one up, "tautology - saying the same thing twice but differently" ! So I learned a new word today, no Blacksmithing info but a new word ! Why are so many people getting on the defensive side... I can't or won't quote what I am referencing for posts but tend to feel it in the words people are using. Let all take a step back, breathe deeply and relax, we are here doing the same thing, learning from others experiences and helping others. OK, newbie is done, get xxxx off if you want to ban me for putting in the "xxxx" word but slack off we only have so much time on this earth and why waste it getting angry at someone or just complaining ! If I have misinterpreted what is being said here, PLEASE except my apologies ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 ,T. P., Correct! The statement is surely a tautology. But it is also JEJUNE. Just my inane two cents worth. Regards to tout la gangue, SLAG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 tautological? pleonastic? circumlocutory? prolix? Maybe I am using too many words in this post meaning much the same thing? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Yes, yes, all very funny. The fact remains that to reply to someone that posts a larger than average tool with "that is not large, mine is larger", is clearly dumb, contributes nothing, is a deterrent to others and this regardless of attempts to be witty after the fact. If you guys can not see this ... well, I can't help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Do you not understand from my photos and posts, the fact that in my experience and from my point of view, the OP's is not a "larger than average tool"? Why was it "clearly dumb" to contribute my work practices and my knowledge of those of the smiths I have met, in direct response to the OP's query? Who are the others my post deterred, and how do you know there were any? Why single out and describe my contribution as dumb and meaningless and not dismiss the photo that Glen posted of an even larger holding device? I shared my experience and showed examples. You have made sweeping claims of having knowledge about the scope of all other blacksmiths' work which you are patently not in a position to do. Nobody in the world is. If you can't see this...well, I can't help you. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Yes Blacksmithing is so varied that to one person 1" sq stock is very heavy and to another 12" sq stock is extremely light! The range is large and I certainly would not want to claim that there is a specific "general blacksmithing". When I started out I pretty much knew only knifemakers; but I would not claim that most blacksmiths are bladesmiths...or that most bladesmiths make swords, and I have seen a number of "swordsmiths" that were more attempting to make a using sword than succeeding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Alan, I'm late getting into this thread. The picture of you in front of the shop looks like you are holding a pair of post hole diggers. The ones that I can buy in the box stores seem to ware out to quickly. That pictures makes me think that I may have to forge a set from some 1.5" 440c that I have on hand. Of course, then I will have to get my son to use them. I'm just to old to be doing that any more. Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 @ Wayne My dad always told me that's what sons are for! He gave me the impression his dad had told him. You can tell your son that at least he won't have to push them into the ground as hard as the store bought wooden handled post diggers. Of course lifting them out plus soil will be slightly more problematic, so I would let him find that for himself. I will measure them tomorrow and see if I can figure out what section they started from. You are right, it was certainly around 1.5" Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Just let him be guys. I don't know what's up his 3rd point of contact but it does nobody a service to argue with attitude. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Or what I say when folks are trying to sell me mangled sledgehammers at the fleamarket: "looks too much like work to me" (Gets a laugh in Spanish down here too...) They do a lot of stonework down here, almost every new house around here has a 4-6' stone wall around it. So a lot of beat to pieces sledges, I've been very sad to find old Atha sledges with destroyed faces. (If they are cheap enough I get them for the cast steel for other projects.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 16 hours ago, WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith said: Alan, I'm late getting into this thread. The picture of you in front of the shop looks like you are holding a pair of post hole diggers. The ones that I can buy in the box stores seem to ware out to quickly. That pictures makes me think that I may have to forge a set from some 1.5" 440c that I have on hand. Of course, then I will have to get my son to use them. I'm just to old to be doing that any more. Wayne I did dig them out and measured them up...they are a lot bigger than I remembered! The joint flat measures 1.5" x 3.5" the rectangular section at the base of the Vee jaw is 1.75 x 3.125" Reverse engineering forging going by the tell tales (largely that curved shadow line on the edge between the jaw and joint) it looks like they started out from square section. Forged the joint area down first and then knocked the jaw lump on the end down; dressing back the taper and cleaning up the joint offset. Then tapped the radiused edges of the end lump back to rectangular (forming that curve/shadow line); fullered it out sideways; then used Vee top tool on the anvil to chop the Vee centre in and then put it in between top and bottom Vee tools to form the shape. So allowing for the gain from the punched hole the cross sectional area of the rectangular bits after forging is around 5.25" so I would think it must have been between 2.5" and 2.75" square to start with. Interesting. Anybody analyse it differently? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Anyone remember that Quad-State where a load of industrial tongs showed up and they were making coke/beer can holders from them? I rein into the ground and the other one spiraled up so it would close on a can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Alan, with the new pictures they wouldn't do very well as post hole diggers. Here in the US post hole diggers have about a 6" diameter bits and thin. I make fire place shovels from 1" square and have a shovel face about 6" wide, So I think maybe a little bit larger than 1" would make bits beefy enough to work well. I may try making some and let you all know. I would probably draw out the handles though normally they are wooden which tend to break after a while. Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 9 hours ago, WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith said: Alan, with the new pictures they wouldn't do very well as post hole diggers. Here in the US post hole diggers have about a 6" diameter bits and thin. I make fire place shovels from 1" square and have a shovel face about 6" wide, So I think maybe a little bit larger than 1" would make bits beefy enough to work well. I may try making some and let you all know. I would probably draw out the handles though normally they are wooden which tend to break after a while. Wayne Although I had forgotten just how heavy they were, I knew they were too heavy for post holing and thought you were joking...hence my jokey response! It was good exercise for me yesterday nonetheless!...physically to get them out into the sunshine...and mentally to try and figure out the making sequence. Quite a different set of shapes to the traditional "near anvil edge; quarter turn-far anvil edge; quarter turn-far anvil edge" hand forged tong process. I guess the reason the store bought wooden handled post hole "hinged trowel devices" are lightly built is that they are intended mainly just for lifting out the spoil loosened by a bar or pick. They are certainly no good for digging in the stoney ground round here. Depending on the post size I have used an auger with a Tee bar as opposed to hiring a powered one. But even they struggle with our Cotswold Brash. But often as not for the occasional hole just use a bar and a single blade post hole spade and my hand! A few years ago I did repair a tractor mounted post hole hammer for an agricultural contractor...that was a brutal device...but very quick if you are fencing a field. Alan Talking of Post Hole bars reminded me of the beautifully balanced blacksmith made one I have inherited from my father....I have started another thread with a couple of photos. https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/51374-forged-post-hole-digging-bar/#comment-543801 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 Well I dare say that my question has been answered and my horizons broadened and for that I thank you all! I find it very interesting that there are still smithing operations in use today that are making things that big (and bigger). It's refreshing to see that not all "old world skills" are dying out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Hinsman Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 The largest tongs I have are about 27” long, but with some really odd jaws: 58698029287__65549A62-080E-4B0F-8B71-E2A6AB3F2BE2.MOV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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