Jay.bro Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 I see what you guys mean he said it was just something he had heard he may have been talking about low carbon or iron but he never really clarified it either way so I just have the memory from about 12 years ago him saying that to me as we were working on a truck. I'm still doing research though to try to figure out everything I can before just diving headfirst into muddy water. I'm sure my grandpa was just saying a rumor he'd heard about it. And bloomery is a new term for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I had a friend years ago who insisted that blacksmiths get their metal to forging temperatures by bending it back and forth until it heats up enough to glow red. People do get some funny ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay.bro Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 Lol never heard that one before but I have heard of quenching swords in the belly of a slave from back a long time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Another urban myth as doing so would almost certainly leave the blade warped past using. If you research it, it turns out that people always claimed their *enemies* did so! (It's possible to track it in a circle with one group claiming that they didn't do it but group number 2 did and group number 2 claiming that they didn't do it but group number 3 did and so on till group N claims that they didn't do it but group 1 did!) Now fresh blood works like a weak brine in a quench. Seawater would be better. Of course Theophilus in 1120 wrote in Divers Arts that you could quench in the urine of a small red headed boy or a goat fed ferns for 3 days. (at one time I almost qualified for the first but now am closer to the second!) I've quenched in a stale urine exhaust bath from an indigo dying project. It had such an amusing smell when the hot steel hit it... For more oddball quenchants from the Renaissance: Sources for the History of the Science of Steel, 1532 - 1786; C.S.Smith; has a list in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick15u Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 On 6/1/2017 at 3:53 PM, ThomasPowers said: Ahh you do know you should be able to ILL books at your local public library by asking at the front desk. I live in a small town in rural NM and I can get books from any of 90+ other libraries including several universities Where could I find these books on line at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Try bamsite.org & books. I believe they have them on the site. Better yet try this, http://www.bamsite.org/library/bamlibrary.pdf This is better, http://www.bamsite.org/books/books.html Or, Google "iforgeiron cosira" and you should get the site url for cosira SLAG. Forget hot urine, such as peeing on a campfire to "put it out". The odor is vile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay.bro Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 On 6/3/2017 at 7:18 PM, ThomasPowers said: Another urban myth as doing so would almost certainly leave the blade warped past using. If you research it, it turns out that people always claimed their *enemies* did so! (It's possible to track it in a circle with one group claiming that they didn't do it but group number 2 did Speaking of different quench mediums I tried searching this and the oil in this heater thing I have is silicone oil I've only found 2 threads on here that mention it I'm wondering if any of you guys have any experience in using it I mean it's in a space heater so in theory it should disperse heat well and be a decent medium but I'm worried about having a chemical explosion by introducing a hot blade to it and I'm going to be in a 6x7 shed I'm building for this forge but it's gonna have big windows and a big door so it'll have plenty of ventilation but basically I don't want to get blown up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 You know you can buy heat treat oils of different chill speeds and heat transfer oil works well too and is cheaper. I just hit the local supermarket deli for a 5gl. jug of fryer oil. They change it often and it's all canola. It helps a lot to be a likable bull shooter and tel them why you need it. Bring a clean 5gl. jerry can with a tag and stop by the day they change oil. You donn't want to make it hard or inconvenient for the nice folk. I wanted the donut oil but I got the stuff that makes the shop smell like: chicken, egg rolls, fish, mojo potatoes, etc. Oh well. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay.bro Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 I plan on going and talking to the fast food restaurants about getting some of their oil when they change it out I know some of the ppl that work at them and it's free lol I could just have them filter it first or I'll build a filter to strain the oil through. I'm on a bit of a budget that's why I was asking I have about 5 of these space heaters and they all messed up and won't work anymore so I was considering repurposing the oil for this since it's just sitting there useless at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanternnate Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Canola oil is pretty cheap, and for little things like knives a gallon is sufficient. Begging for used oil and dinkering around filtering it falls way above my worth it meter for what it costs to just buy some fresh stuff at the grocery store with no worries of contamination. A $4 empty paint can from the hardware store makes a great "quench tank" at this size with a nice lid. I guess theoretically the canola oil could eventually go rancid, but you're going to get a long while out of it. I eventually want to get some true heat treat oil just so I don't have to worry about pre heating, but my paint can of canola oil has been rolling issue free for a good bit for me. To pre heat I just get a railroad spike good and hot and swirl it in the oil before the quench. I'm waiting on getting the "real stuff" until I settle on some favorite steels so I can buy the oil with the right target speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 We're not talking about making bio diesel, filtering is a waste of time unless there are big chunks in it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Back to the oil in electrically heated "oil" heaters: I don't know anything about it and so worry about possible additions to it; like they used to do for transformer oil where PCBs were added to stabilize them. And, unfortunately, if the heaters were manufactured in China I'd worry more as they have a rather lengthy list of not following "Best Practices" in manufacturing and environmental safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 I'm with you Thomas especially where China made is concerned. They're just not so concerned with living long healthy lives as we are. Heat treat or heat transfer oils are designed for the job. Heat transfer oils like you find in tar post, etc. is a pretty common commodity. I'd lose the fryer oil if I did much heat treating. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Well, more precisely, their factory owners aren't held to the same kind of health-and-safety regulations as ours. That said, I entirely agree with Frosty and ThomasPowers that there are too many unknowns in your heater oil to risk using it as a quenchant. Canola oil is cheap, fryer oil is free, and manufactured quenching oils are easily obtained. Don't bother. (And that's the King of Unnecessary Salvage talking, so you know you'd better listen up.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 The only reason I'm not the undisputed king of scrounge is Deb won't let me. Truth is I know a few guys who out salvage all of us put together. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Well punishments in China for giving the country a bad name in the world wide press tend to be draconian; but getting away with things seems to be an accepted modus operandi. I've worked with an unnamed country about 20 years ago where we had moved our cable manufacturing there and had such issues we specified 100% test; every cable had to have a full test run on it before shipping. We still send 2 complete sets of cables to each location as even with 100% test we were getting around 50% drop out. (and these went to million+ dollar systems involved in a 3-7 Billion dollar *net* revenue stream systems! I did the upgrade for our lab machine and realized what problems they were having in the field when I called an error message in and the field support guy could tell me off the top of his head exactly where the problem was in the 640 backplane wiring changes...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colopast Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 On 6/3/2017 at 9:31 AM, JHCC said: Another aspect of the repeated folding and forge welding of Japanese steel was that it gave it a more consistent carbon content throughout, rather than with that content varying considerably in different parts of the original bloom. I agree. Aside from this, the Japanese sword blades are forged with different profiles and varying amounts of grind. They also use a mixture of clay and water in between heating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 You do not need tongs to make tongs. Get yourself sufficiently long stock so you can hold it in your hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay.bro Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 Okay cool I am going to start on building everything tomorrow afternoon so I'll upload pics as soon as I get everything finished I was told rebar makes good material for tongs and if nothing else I can find a long pair of channel locks or vice grips until I can get tongs built to do small projects but yeah first thing is getting my stuff built lol. Again guys thanks so much for the knowledge I'm going to continue combing the site to learn more I'm looking into lining the outside of my forge with a mud mortared stone for a decorative look lol since I'm making it cheap but I think I can make it work just fine. Hopefully the weather allows me to get this done fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Rebar does not make particularly good tongs. 5160 does if you like light springy tongs and don't let them get to critical temperatures and mild steel makes good tongs if you are liable to overheat them in use. Please read the threads on rebar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay.bro Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 Okay thanks ThomasPowers I'll probably go with mild steel for my first set I build until I get more knowledgeable then probably go to a 5160 later. I will definitely read the threads on rebar I know I was looking at rebar and rasp files as a potential source of metal for future projects so I'll definitely research it more thoroughly on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 One of the biggest problems with using rebar for smithing projects is the texture: you're going to be putting in a lot of extra work to smooth out all those bumps and ridges. You can save yourself a lot of unnecessary effort by starting with stock of the right size and texture. Many steel suppliers will sell you their extra cut-off pieces (called "drops") at a discount. Of course, if you incorporate that texture into your design, it can be kind of cool. The college where I work just had a major building project, and the construction company let me salvage the extra bits of steel. I forged one piece of rebar into a coiled-up rattlesnake as a thank-you to the company, and made another into a bottle opener as a farewell gift to our outgoing president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheechWizard Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 For more oddball quenchants from the Renaissance: Sources for the History of the Science of Steel, 1532 - 1786; C.S.Smith; has a list in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilwaukeeJon Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Torbjorn Ahman’s herb chopper is a great starter project and works great with 5160. Just beware of stress fractures forming at the base of the handle....teaches you hammer control and the need to keep up the heat when forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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