General help on a brick forge/ needing info

[jeremy k]

Actually, I don't mind seeing the fast versions, due to the fact if your doing something repetitive, you can see the miss/extra moves that are not necessary.....more particularly watching videos of myself to see areas were I can improve movements. It is an eye opener sometimes to see things you are doing and don't realize them till you see them.

[JHCC]

 

I just wish people would stop including the speeded up footage, more than a couple seconds is just annoying it doesn't actually show anything useful. Again that's just me, I want meat, not fluff in a how to video.

YouTube gives you the option of watching at a slower speed, if you like. Click on the "Settings" icon at the bottom, and select the speed you want. I'll sometimes watch a normal speed video at a slower speed if there are details that I miss otherwise.

[Frosty]

Sure but do I want to have to change settings in the middle of a video? It's just a cutsie that's over used to no good purpose. ESPECIALLY with the sound ON!

High end editing isn't expected but why make it worse, as said already how about just cutting to the next meaningful part? I tend to just hit the progress bar and skip long speedies or episodes like drawing both sets of reins all the way down.

It's just another production values issue and I don't watch the things for production values. Please leave out the LOUD music, I'm pretty sure we don't listen to the same things.

Frosty The Lucky.

[old school blacksmith]

thanks guys for showing me a good video on making tongs now I may have very thing now! but I'm wondering still on the type of melting cup to use for iron and steel! do ya'll  know anty that are good??

[ThomasPowers]

Iron as cast iron or wrought iron?  The term you are hunting for is crucible and look at the temps involved!  Do you have the high dollar PPE?  Do you have the skills?

Melting steel is usually something to do AFTER you have lots of experience melting and handling lower temp metals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And remember what you put in the crucible may not necessarily be what you pour out of it so you have to be aware of how alloys react and how fluxes are used, etc and so on.

Or basically If you don't even know the correct name for a crucible you are NOWHERE NEAR READY TO WORK WITH MOLTEN STEEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Molten steel accidents tend to cause massively expensive hospital bills and maiming for life! (If you survive!)

[old school blacksmith]

Wow that was a odd answer!  But I do know where you are coming from though. And I understand but I'm talking about small amounts not like a litter of liquid metal. More like about 4'' (in.) in with and length cube size. 

[ThomasPowers]

4"x4"x4" is 64 cubic inches and is  just above 1 liter, (1.048772L), according to several conversion sites I checked.  Can you see why we worry about people who are sloppy with easy things wanting to work with very dangerous things? Molten metals are very dangerous things and many of the dangers are not intuitive.  Do you know why you don't cast the high temp metals over a concrete floor? What metal evolves toxic fumes just about pouring temperature? Why do we consider solid steel hundreds of degrees hotter than some metals are when molten to be safer than them to work with?

A cup of molten steel can kill you quite easily if you are lucky; if you are unlucky you can survive with a permanent Freddy Kruger look. I know people with permanent scars from a drop of sweat falling unnoticed into a mold as they were carrying it out to the foundry and that was just with brass!

 I strongly urge you to take a metals casting course and then work under a trained caster for a bit before starting up on your own with the high temp metals!

[Frosty]

OSB: That was an "odd" answer ONLY if you have no idea of what you want to do. 1 lb of molten iron, about a coffee cup's worth, has the explosive equivalent of a CASE of 40% dynamite if you drop it on something damp or sweat drips off your head into the crucible.

Thomas isn't joking when he says you'll be lucky if you kill yourself. Call a burn clinic and ask how much pain is involved in oh say 20% 4th degree burns, surgeries, treatment, therapy, etc. etc. Actually the 4th degree burns will be your favorites, the 3rd. and 2nd degree burns REALLY HURT. You'll be lucky to be able to kick the addiction to pain drugs once you're able to take care of yourself. If ever.

If you aren't puckering hard and tight just thinking about casting steel you don't know enough to be dangerous. 

We are NOT joking casting steel isn't in the home shop's capacity and NO, you are very unlikely to "show" us. Please take some classes and learn to cast the right way. I've been burned by molten aluminum from a blown mold about 30' away. What hit me was around 1,100 f. and fortunately didn't stick or get caught in my clothes or shoes so I only got 2nd degree burns down my back about as wide as your hand and a little longer. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[old school blacksmith]

well I'm glad you are telling me about this stuff. A I'll show you guys what I'm talking about in picture wise later so you know what I'm dealing with.

[Buzzkill]

OBS, this doesn't seem to be getting through to you.  We'll be happy to look at a picture, but the main issue it molten iron/steel.  It's NOT just a slightly more advanced version of casting aluminum.  I've done a minor amount of that and I would not dream of attempting casting iron or steel at home.  The size of the project is irrelevant.  Even if you only wanted to cast a steel ingot the size of your thumb it's still something that requires far more knowledge and far better PPE than casting most of the common non-ferrous metals.  Can you do it at home without killing or maiming yourself?  Maybe, but the risk factor is far higher than with the aforementioned metals.  At the very least if you don't know what you're doing you'll probably just end up burning the iron or steel and making it completely unusable.  Melting and pouring steel is in a completely different category than heating steel up into its plastic state and moving it around with a hammer, and it's also way different than casting non-ferrous metals with significantly lower melting points.  We're not trying to discourage you from reaching your goals.  We're trying to convince you not to tackle something you are unprepared to handle which will likely result in injury or death to you or others around you.

[old school blacksmith]

Hey guys this is what I was talking about it's the silver-ish cube on the right of a coffee mug you may get a better description of what I was trying to say.

 

I'm trying to melt down metal into the cube like object because I'm going to practice with aluminum foil and soda cans to make knives when I get it up and running 

That's why I was kinda miss put it in to words  also it's going to have a very low melting point so I can get injured still I know but it's alot more saver than working with steel and iron.

[Buzzkill]

That's not anywhere near a 4 inch cube unless that is one massive coffee mug.  If you're talking about using aluminum foil and/or soda cans for casting aluminum ..... well, you should probably do a little more research first.  I'm not saying those things can't be used for casting, but they are far from the best options.  The points people made about liquids that can flash to steam in molten metal become very relevant when you talk about using aluminum cans.  I'm not sure how the subject relates to knife making either.

Regardless, can you explain why this needs to be cast steel rather than milled, ground, forged, forge welded, or other means that are far less likely to disfigure you, require a fraction of the energy, have far less chance to fail, would cost only pennies on the dollar (comparatively) to produce, and require only a small amount of PPE?

[old school blacksmith]

Look right now I am trying to tell you that I'm going to Practice with those items to train /teach myself on melting metal then put it in to a cast for a cube or in a rectangle so I can shape it into a knife OK?

[ThomasPowers]

Casting steel in Europe didn't come around till almost the American Revolution, (1740's Benjamin Huntsman) So have you decided to go modern on us?

[Buzzkill]

Got it.  What I'm telling you is:

1. Forging aluminum is not good practice for forging steel. They don't forge at the same temperatures, they don't have the same color spectrum to judge when it's ok to hit with a hammer, and they don't react the same way under a hammer.

2. Casting aluminum is not adequate practice for casting iron or steel.

3. There are many other ways of creating a cube of steel, if that is your preferred starting shape, for forging knives.

4. Cast iron or steel is almost certain to be less than ideal for making knives.

5. Steel that is suitable for forging (or stock removal) knives is readily and cheaply available - especially compared to melting steel.

That's a short list.

If you are really interested in what's involved in melting chunks of steel to a well-crafted steel weapon - in this case a sword - I suggest you look up and watch Secrets of the Viking Sword.  Our own Ric Furrer is featured in that program.  It was produced by Nova, but I believe part or all of it is on Youtube.  That will give you an idea of what it takes. 

[old school blacksmith]

Look I'm only changing the  physical form of the metal not casting that's what I'm trying to say so please get it right because that's what blacksmith did in the Medieval era when they had scrap metal laying around. It's like taking iron ore melt it down that has been cooled off and then melted back down to make a bar of iron! If you get what I mean. 

[Buzzkill]

I can only use the information that you've given us.  You've specifically said you wanted to know about a "melting cup" for iron or steel.  Melting is not just changing the physical form, that's changing its physical state.  If you just want to re-shape bits by getting them hot and hitting them with a hammer, that's forging.  If you want to take 2 or more pieces of steel and turn them into one piece of steel without them becoming liquid, then that's where forge welding comes into play.  Either of those two options are much easier to achieve and much less dangerous than taking them from the solid state to the liquid state.  I would strongly encourage you to look at those options to get what you want rather than trying to deal with molten iron or steel.

Thomas Powers can tell you about the medieval ways probably, but I'd guess they were much more likely to forge weld scrap pieces together than they were to melt the pieces.

[Frosty]

 

Look I'm only changing the  physical form of the metal not casting that's what I'm trying to say so please get it right because that's what blacksmith did in the Medieval era when they had scrap metal laying around. It's like taking iron ore melt it down that has been cooled off and then melted back down to make a bar of iron! If you get what I mean. 

OSB: Your frustration is showing. Telling US to get it right is really out of line, YOU are the one who has zero idea what you're talking about. We should go curmudgeon on you and make you sit in a corner or write on the black board for a while. Mind your manners young man. 

From what you're saying you don't seem to know the difference between forging and casting. During the medieval times scrap metal was NOT laying around everywhere, steel was more valuable than gold. A sword like one JPH can make in an afternoon was worth a King's ransom. EG Excaliber or Albion. Blacksmiths did NOT melt scrap or anything into a bar to forge anything with. That is NOT how it is or was done.

We don't want to discourage you from making things and you REALLY NEED to learn something about the craft. Get off your smart phone and go to the library. Iforge has a pretty inclusive reading list. Do some.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

As previously mentioned they didn't melt iron/steel until the 1740's, (cast iron was earlier but it's quite different and they only went to the indirect process near the start of the Renaissance).

As Buzzkill mentioned the method of reusing little bits of iron/steel scrap was to forge weld them into larger chunks and then forge those out as needed.

[Tubalcain2]

OSB,  as a fellow non-expert i would suggest that you come back to earth before you have the curmudgeons bustin grade 8's, which i think is coming purty soon. this is dangerous stuff. it's not like some computer game where if you die you just go back and try again. this is real life with real death,  and death by molten steel (or anything else) is a real rough way to go. 

[old school blacksmith]

Look frosty I not on a smart phone I'm mostly on a computer but that doesn't matter.  What does is I'm trying my hardest to understand and if you go off on me then how I'm I to learn? Meaning yes I haven't started up my forge and trying to get the proper tools but the best way to help someone to learn is to give them the knowledge that you or someone has! and you guys are giving me some extreme knowledge that I can use when my forge is up and running. So please don't get all upset about me getting the eras wrong just correct me then I'll not get them wrong but here and there I will but I will try my hardest to remember remember that my brain works differently than your guy's does. 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

The first thing you need to learn is the difference between forging and casting (melting) metal. You can start here.

http://blog.cmworks.com/forging-vs-casting-which-is-better/

[Frosty]

OSB: We're not going off on you. We're giving the best help we can to a young man who apparently isn't willing to listen.  We aren't playing some kind of game with you, this is SERIOUS business, even for hobbyists. We've been trying to tell you what you need to know but you evidently won't even look up what we've been trying to tell you. 

It's not humanly possible to TEACH anyone something. The BEST anybody can do is present YOU with the information, where to find it and offer corrections when you have something wrong. The rest is on YOU. You have to LEARN, we're more than happy to help but you have to stop arguing and pick up a book. When I said put the smart phone down I was referring to playing online games. The internet makes more information available to any human than all humanity could access just a few years ago. Unfortunately a lot of it is junk uploaded by people who's only goal is to be read.

I don't have the titles to mind. Thomas, can you suggest a book or two our aspiring young friend can read to get started? Not a lot of tech details, sound basics in lay terms?

The ONLY thing you lack is knowledge and that is not gained by trying to make the world fit what you think. Don't sweat it it happens to everybody. There is NO rush to do any of this. The only thing you do in a rush is make mistakes permanent faster. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[old school blacksmith]

Guys I may be stubborn but I'm a stubborn young man who does listen to people who do have the right experience. Look,  how about a compromise. Give me some names of books that are basic 101 rules for newbies for beginner swordsmithing and the difference between casting and forging. So what do you guys think is this a good compromise?? 

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning, Class,

OSB, The fella's are trying to ask you to understand, Forging is not Casting. You keep talking about casting and it is driving the neighbourhood CRAZY.  Forget your cube, that you think you want to start with. Think about using Play-Doh, Forging steel or mild steel works identical to working Play-Doh in your HANDS. You are not adding or taking away, you are moving the existing molecules of steel or mild steel, to a different position than what they used to be. This is Forging!! Whatever you can make with Play-Doh, you can Forge. The advantage to using Play-Doh, is you can experiment in your HANDS. You can try something and see what is going to happen, if you pinch it, it gets thinner and longer and wider. This is called 'Drawing out your material'. If you push it back together, this is called 'Upsetting'.

A book that I use when I teach a beginners Class is, 'a Blacksmithing Primer' by Randy McDaniel. Randy sometimes pokes his nose in the "iForge" door. Randy writes the book in very easy to understand language. One of the first understanding's you should accept is the phrase "S.O.R.", Square, Octagonal, Round. This is an absolute must to understand, before starting your Forging exercises.

Enjoy the Journey, don't shoot the messenger. These guys are trying to HELP YOU!!

Neil