Why I stopped listening to experts

[rookieironman]

  Awhile back I thought I'd start hammering. Now that was more years ago than I'd care to divulge, but over the years I've acquired some knowledge about hammering metal.  And I've learned a few things about places where experts hold forth. 

     I've learned that the quickest to comment with an opinion often writes so much that there is obviously very little time spent at the anvil. Unless you call a keyboard your anvil.

      I have learned that engineering facts about heat transfer,  thermodynamics, and material dynamics are areas of knowledge generally misunderstood by those who hold forth as experts on those subjects in these threads. 

     I've learned to hold my counsel as I have been vigorously told that the facts I learned acquiring my degrees in engineering and years of work in the steel industry were wrong and misguided and foolhardy. And after all that I was graciously told it would never work the way I thought it would...by experts who don't understand that, although they claim to have experience, that doesn't mean that experience has done them any good.   Sitting in front of a keyboard spewing misinformation with an authority based on little besides self aggrandizement is apparently what is now considered "expert" . I have stopped listening to "experts".   Except, of course, when I feel like a laugh and want to read something truly ridiculous.  

"Inelastic rebound" indeed ha ha ha ha ha.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

As I've said before. "An expert is someone who studies more and more about less and less, until they know everything about nothing".

[jlpservicesinc]

HUH. Both of you guys sound like you have been reading my posts or watching my "How to" Videos..  

I'm so stuck in the past (mid 1800 to early 1900's)  that if there is anything new in terms of figuring out how to make metals particularly wrought iron, or any of the carbon based steels or Alloys work for me I'm in..  

it is funny as I feel like Rip Van Winkle..   But hey I"m an expert..  LOL..       

[Glenn]

Many times information becomes dated as new discoveries and new processes are found. 

IForgeIron self corrects and is encouraged to do so. If a discussion becomes heated we request that both sides provide references to back up their opinions. This way we can read the original reference and read from the original information for review. We also understand that there are times when experience is the reference. This experience can be provided and independently proven to be true.

IF you speak in generalities that is fine. If you have had a problem on the site, please provide me the details and I will look into the issue. 

[Ridgewayforge]

I think this is a good post, and a thought provoking one. One thousand words written by an 'expert' are no match for ten minutes trying, failing and repeating in real life. That being said, I think we can all recognize when people are speaking prudently and putting their own experience into what they write, especially here. Safety comes to mind- Even if science says that metal fume fever isn't a 'real' disease, personal experience of getting sick from welding zinc would still hold true. 

Its important to note, though, that when an 'expert' says that the steel won't move *this* way or *that* way, it can and should become a good-natured challenge to prove them wrong. That's how we advance! "You can't", "I will try" and then finding out that "Actually, I can!" 

 

Good food for thought!

[gote]

Dear rookie,

You can of course avoid listening to experienced people and insist on making your own mistakes but it is not very wise and your description of the curmudgeons as "spewing misinformation" tells us more about your personality than about anything else.

Inelastic bounce is perhaps not an accurate scientific description but I assume that Frosty means that the rebound is from something that does not yield much when subject to load. His wording may be more understandable to a layman than the exact scientific definition; which I - with a university level degree in mechanical engineering do not remember. Your way of writing does not make me look it up (besides it will be in a language you probably do not understand.) Those who contribute to IFI do not write for your eyes only. They try to write for a larger audience.

Now you yourself wrote "endgrain of stacked planks" Stacked planks are lying down (see definition of stack in dictionary) so mounting on the end grain would mean that you mount the anvil on a vertical surface. Your wording thus indicates that you are not familiar with wood working or framing so it is natural that the answers assume ignorance on your side.

I think you are confusing two issues here. A: Is the answer correct as describing what works/not works in the real world situation in the smithy? B: does the answer give a scientifically correct explanation with the perfect scientific wording?

If you are more interested in B, you make yourself into the 'keyboard blacksmith' you are complaining about. The explanation given may sometimes be wrong but it might be worded in a way that people without a degree in engineering can understand. To reject experience gained by decades of blacksmithing on the grounds that you give in your post is IMO just foolish.  

I personally do not think that the properties of the stand are that important if the anvil is heavy enough. If you have an engineering education you should understand that the transfer of dynamic energy from hammer into the stock is highly influenced by the weight (and Young's modulus and possibly yield point) of the anvil and that the amount of elasticity in the stand is of very minor importance if the anvil is heavy enough compared to the weight of the hammer. If the shock wave in the anvil has not reached the boundary to the stand when the deformation of the stock is completed, the bounchiness of the stand has no influence at all. That means that stability and dampening of ringing are the important issues - not the elasticity of the stand.

In my opinion you were given very sound advice to your question in your post and I think that you are being ungrateful and abusive. I do not think that you should talk about  self aggrandizement  IMO it has kicked back.

[rboughton3rd]

Rookie, In an attempt to understand the context of your argument I started reading the posts in which you had previously responded and became very confused, first on your sense of time...

8 hours ago, rookieironman said:

 

  Awhile back I thought I'd start hammering. Now that was more years ago than I'd care to divulge, but over the years I've acquired some knowledge about hammering metal.  And I've learned a few things about places where experts hold forth. 

 

According to this statement you have been " hammering" for years, and yet if we look back to your previous statements...

On 10/4/2016 at 1:26 PM, rookieironman said:

So, I am preparing to begin hitting metal. I am starting to target and acquire tools. I have noticed that anvils are  often mounted on the end grain of stacked  planks.  This seems to me to encourage bouncing.  The mechanical properties of wood in this direction are spring like.  My thought was that mounting securely to a packed sand filled container would remove this bounce and probably decrease the ring.  Has anyone explored this?

just 7 months ago you were "preparing to begin hitting metal", not sure of much statement to hold true here, maybe you are standing next to a black hole and your perception of time is effected in some way...who knows.

Now lets more past the date at the top of your post and look at the rest of the text contained within, your first few statements are more a matter of opinion than fact so we can skip those and move to the 6th sentence

9 hours ago, rookieironman said:

I have learned that engineering facts about heat transfer,  thermodynamics, and material dynamics are areas of knowledge generally misunderstood by those who hold forth as experts on those subjects in these threads. 

Given that you did not site your source there is no way to prove or disprove this statement so it becomes moot. Looking at the rest of your post you continued without siting any specific sources, but you did use a quote in your last line

9 hours ago, rookieironman said:

"Inelastic rebound" indeed ha ha ha ha ha.

we now have hint at something other than indirect hints and opinions.  Using the search feature on this forum and using the words "Inelastic rebound" and applying it to the threads in which you participated we come up with this thread

specifically Frosty's post

I am not sure how you would find this post a source of amusement or how it could be described as

9 hours ago, rookieironman said:

knowledge generally misunderstood by those who hold forth as experts on those subjects in these threads.

You claim above

9 hours ago, rookieironman said:

I learned acquiring my degrees in engineering

Let us assume that with your "degrees in engineering" that you have at least a basic understanding of Physics, so we can take a look at your finding of the term "Inelastic rebound" as some how being "misunderstood" to the point of being funny. "Inelastic" does in fact apply to this( I will site my source in a moment), so we can move past that and look at the second word being "rebound". Here I think is where your issue lies, in the scientific community that word would not be used in that context, but we are on a blacksmithing forum were most people would understand the word "rebound".  I believe in this case Frosty used simple word substitution to convey his message in a way that the majority of his audience would understand. If we go back to the scientific community the word that follows "Inelastic" would most likely be "Collisions".  Why do I think this, because Elastic and "Inelastic" collisions are exactly what happens when you put hammer to anvil. Here I can site multiple sources the first being a simple breakdown of the Physics involved.http://www.tutorvista.com/content/physics/physics-iii/work-energy-power/elastic-inelastic-collisions.php

If you prefer something more than just a simple breakdown you can check this sourcehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inelastic_collision

While I don't generally use Wikipedia as a source, in this case it does list its own references on the subject including " Vector equations for engineers: Dynamics (Sixth ed.). McGraw Hill. pp. 794–797." ISBN 978-0070053663  which I think should be enough to let us assume that the information given is fairly accurate.

 

If you are going to start a thread stating that you have issues with something that was said at least site your source, you may be wrong, the person who disagreed with you may be wrong, you both may be wrong and maybe someone else has the the right information or at least knows where to look for it. You will find in many threads that people specifically state that it is their opinion or how they prefer to do something( I will not site sources here because it would take up several pages).  The point of this forum is so that we can all learn from each other, someone who has been blacksmithing for 40 years may have completed then same task 10,000 times, does that mean he is always right, no, some 15 year old kid may find a more efficient way to complete the same task the first time he picks up a hammer, we each have our own perspective, our own experience.  Please use this forum to continue its original point, to learn and share knowledge. Arguments like the one you tried to start above are pointless. But that's just my 2 cents.

 

[Marc1]

10 hours ago, rookieironman said:

  Awhile back I thought I'd start hammering. Now that was more years ago than I'd care to divulge, but over the years I've acquired some knowledge about hammering metal.  And I've learned a few things about places where experts hold forth. 

     I've learned that the quickest to comment with an opinion often writes so much that there is obviously very little time spent at the anvil. Unless you call a keyboard your anvil.

      I have learned that engineering facts about heat transfer,  thermodynamics, and material dynamics are areas of knowledge generally misunderstood by those who hold forth as experts on those subjects in these threads. 

     I've learned to hold my counsel as I have been vigorously told that the facts I learned acquiring my degrees in engineering and years of work in the steel industry were wrong and misguided and foolhardy. And after all that I was graciously told it would never work the way I thought it would...by experts who don't understand that, although they claim to have experience, that doesn't mean that experience has done them any good.   Sitting in front of a keyboard spewing misinformation with an authority based on little besides self aggrandizement is apparently what is now considered "expert" . I have stopped listening to "experts".   Except, of course, when I feel like a laugh and want to read something truly ridiculous.  

"Inelastic rebound" indeed ha ha ha ha ha.

Very strange post.

You say you stopped listening to experts. Yet you acquired a degree by listening to them. And then you worked with others with more experience and again learned from them. 

So clearly you listen to experts and learn from them like any other mortal. 

Your problem seems to be one of trust. You don't trust or believe what you are told by those whose experience you discard as incorrect. 

We all do that, it is a survival mechanism. I have a very healthy mistrust of politicians, climate experts and financial advisers. 

But my mistrust is based on ignorance, because I know my knowledge of this subjects is basic at best, and I fear i will not be able to discriminate between what is truth and what is a loaded statement with a hidden agenda. So I apply a blanket bias and reject the lot as a survival strategy.

If I had an array of deep knowledge in a subject, and encountered someone else with a stack of experience in the same field I would welcome the opportunity to engage in intense discussions and exchange lots of  experiences and research results and would consider this a blessing to advance the topic that I have at heart. 

To get stuck in petty disagreement over very basic facts, or dissent over definitions or semantics happens when one or both sides have very little at hand to use and exchange and each party fears to lose something in the process, not least to lose face, something a scientist or expert has no fear to lose since he or she know well their own value and need not defending. 

I am sure I can learn a lot from an engineer or metallurgist and conversely I am sure you may be able to learn a thing or two from me, let alone from others way more astute than me. It's a two way street. No one is trying to convert you to something you don't want to be. This is like a conversation in a Pub, over a beer. Doesn't get much more serious than that even when what is discussed is life experience in some cases stretching many decades.

I am ready to learn something if you are. 

Cheers

[ausfire]

I'm not buying into this discussion, other than to say it seems odd that a rookie should question the years of experience of senior members of this site. I'm not a rookie, but I'm certainly no expert, and I value all the opinions and advice offered here.

[jlpservicesinc]

I'd like to put a hold on this for a second first everybody...

 

What I have learned over the years is this....

 

When someone is stuck on an idea whether it's theirs or someone else's.    Yelling at them to see it differently doesn't work...

I've had my share of discussions with several members on here (demos, hardening steels and matrix as the most recent) whom are very smart and well versed and have the knowledge at or in hand....

The point is discussions or the ability to talk about different takes on the same thing is what furthers the information and sometimes it's just the difference in language or how we perceive the meaning in the words we see or say...

I'm old..  set in my ways and have way back in the day did lots of book learning and getting all book smart and then practiced till it was done...  while a lot of the information now is out dated to a certain degree it can never be completely useless even if it is wrong.   Again because its a discussion format..   

While I understand all that is brought up.. If we look at this from a learning stand point only then it becomes a wealth of information..  

Some techniques work for some people and for some others they don't..  Ideally while teaching it's not only teaching the curriculum but also figuring out how to teach each student to the best of their ability since everybody learns differently.. 

Ideally not attacking someone will lead to a greater knowledge for all..   Or it can become a  "I'll show you" and documents why their methods work.. 

I to have found a lot of experts who weren't that bright but hey, that got that passing grade and diploma.. 

 

 

[jlpservicesinc]

5 hours ago, gote said:

 

I personally do not think that the properties of the stand are that important if the anvil is heavy enough. If you have an engineering education you should understand that the transfer of dynamic energy from hammer into the stock is highly influenced by the weight (and Young's modulus and possibly yield point) of the anvil and that the amount of elasticity in the stand is of very minor importance if the anvil is heavy enough compared to the weight of the hammer. If the shock wave in the anvil has not reached the boundary to the stand when the deformation of the stock is completed, the bounchiness of the stand has no influence at all. That means that stability and dampening of ringing are the important issues - not the elasticity of the stand.

 

I would have to not agree with this one..     As for stands.. I think from a beginners or even an advanced skills person doing blacksmithing it would apply..   With my experience I can tell you there is a huge difference between a solid mount, a bouncy mount or a bad mounted anvil just from the way the hammer hits and the metal moves..  Even an anvil mounted solidly to the base but just sitting on the floor vs buried or anchored makes a difference.. 

Of course once you get up to a certain sized anvil it will feel solidly mounted unless on rubber  simply because of the kinetics of it all..  small hammer, larger mass.. etc, etc..  But your talking in the 600lbs range or larger... 

The reason why I can tell this is because of the different stands and mounted methods I have used over the years.. Heavy wooden block, light steel, pipe steel. Trailer mounted, ground mounted. small stump, large stump,  etc, etc..  The more solidly the anvil is mounted to a solidly mounted stump the more work will be produced for a given hammer blow and while on paper it may seem trivial if you run the numbers..  One has to remember we are not numbers but flesh and bone and we change the equation into many variables..

Working in a trailer after working on a real stump and anvil will give all the reference needed and while the new trailer has the anvil mounted on the ground I can still feel the whole stand compress with each hammer blow simply because of the length..  estimated weight would be about 375 to 400lbs.. 

[beammeupscotty]

I'm very happy to see some articulate push back on this post.  Personally, I discounted it immediately simply based upon it's idiotic premise.  Other's research into the OP has revealed that his "years" of hammering metal are in reality less than 1 year.  After that revelation, everything else he states becomes nonsense, but absolutely in line with the what I would expect in an era where facts no longer matter.

[SmoothBore]

I have no interest in the opinions of self-appointed experts.

But would contribute this to the discussion .....

 

Perhaps a part of the difficulty experienced by some beginners, ... as-well-as quite a few experienced practitioners, ... lies in the inevitable disconnect that arises when attempting to apply archaic techniques, to modern materials.

 

The techniques utilized and promoted by experts in traditional Ironwork, were developed to most successfully manipulate that particular ( Heterogeneous ) material, that we know as "Wrought Iron".

Applying those same techniques to ALLOY steels ( a Homogeneous metal ) is going to yield somewhat different results.

Quite often, those differences don't affect the desired outcome, ... but on occasion, they can create "issues". 

 

This is why so many experienced toolmakers and blade-smiths eschew "mystery metal" in favor of "known alloys".

Those folks tend to be "results oriented", ... while others of us enjoy the "mystique" and "adventure"  associated with "scrap" metal.

-----------------------------------------------

 

And while I'm on this "soap box", ... a few words about choosing "scrap" metal for your intended purpose .....

A common question arises on these forums, that goes something like, ... "Can I cut this 200# chunk of steel into blanks for making nails and paper clips" ?

Well, ... of course you CAN, ... but why would you WANT to ?

When I want to make, ... let's say, a small punch, ... I'm most likely going to make it from a slightly larger "struck tool".

( Used punches and chisels can be found at every flea market, ... for a pittance. )

The point being, ... that similar tools will be of an appropriate size and material.

You don't have to "reinvent" the wheel, every time you light up the forge.

 

But, if that's what you WANT to do, ... then you've got to expect a high percentage of failures.

[gmbobnick]

I am as new as they come to blacksmithing.  I am also an engineer with a Masters degree and 33 years of experience.  I believe everyone can teach me something - experts and non-experts alike - by making me think.  I just need to listen.  Thanks to everyone who has the courage to share their ideas and mistakes so we all might learn.

[beech]

I would have to agree though, that I'd rather listen to a real expert with plenty of real experience (which many of those here are, and which I most certainly am not) instead of a self-declared "expert", whose "expertise" is in error.

14 hours ago, rookieironman said:

  Awhile back I thought I'd start hammering. Now that was more years ago than I'd care to divulge, but over the years I've acquired some knowledge about hammering metal.

I note that though it seemed to be implied, he does not say that he has been hammering steel for years.  He says that it has been years since he thought he would start hammering, and that over time he has acquired some knowledge, but he does not state that he acquired it by experience.  I have learned many things here myself in the same way, though I have found that my head "knowledge" and skill are two very different things...

While I disagree with the attack on much of the knowledge here, by the same token I hate to see someone get dumped on. I just hope that this reply isn't more oil on the fire...

[JHCC]

1 hour ago, beech said:

I note that though it seemed to be implied, he does not say that he has been hammering steel for years.  He says that it has been years since he thought he would start hammering, and that over time he has acquired some knowledge, but he does not state that he acquired it by experience.

That's a good point, beech, and it also highlights the need to acquire a certain amount of experience in order to be able to realistically evaluate the degree of others' expertise.

[gote]

3 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 With my experience I can tell you there is a huge difference between a solid mount, a bouncy mount or a bad mounted anvil just from the way the hammer hits and the metal moves..  Even an anvil mounted solidly to the base but just sitting on the floor vs buried or anchored makes a difference.. 

Of course once you get up to a certain sized anvil it will feel solidly mounted unless on rubber  simply because of the kinetics of it all..  small hammer, larger mass.. etc, etc..  But your talking in the 600lbs range or larger...

I do not disagree with you at all but did not want to elaborate the point too much in an already long post. What I mean is that the elasticity in a block of wood is unimportant if the anvil is heavy enough compared to the hammer. (And that the so well educated and learned poster should know all about it in the first place). I try to say that stability is more important and I think you are agreeing to that. By the way my hobby horse is that anvils should be supported along the rim because that silences them and gives stability. I asume you know that some people do put rubber under their anvil to silence them and seem to be happy. The rookie seems to call a solid block of wood "bouncy". Just as there are degrees in a certain hot pace there seems to be degrees in bouncing. By the way I myself and all blacksmiths  around here use anvils that weigh in well above 200 pounds and these do not rock or bounce even if not clamped to the stand. And, as you write, it is a question of kinetics. My anvil may rock if hit obliquely with a ten pound sledgehammer but I do not do that.

16 hours ago, rookieironman said:

     I've learned that the quickest to comment with an opinion often writes so much that there is obviously very little time spent at the anvil. Unless you call a keyboard your anvil.  

 

And so what? People with very long experience in the field sit down at the end of the day or after retiring from professional blacksmithing and try to be helpful. Besides, Who is calling himself an "expert" on this forum? I have not noticed anyone and even the most abrasive curmudgeons say thank you when they receive new relevant information.

[Latticino]

Well I was not going to add any comments to this discussion, but after reviewing rookieironman's previous posts I guess I have to.  In one of them I attempted to assist him in his design for his first gas forge (along with several others).  While I would never promote myself as an expert in smithing, I do have a fair grounding in gas forge design, and in particular with use of forced air burners (P.E. specializing in HVAC design with years of experience designing, building and using forced air burners, both for off hand glass blowing and for the last couple of years for ironworking).  I find his continued negative feedback for folks donating their time to try to help him inappropriate.  I have a very, very short list of "ignored" members.  He has now joined it.

[WNC Goater]

Interesting post. I am a certified Master Bench Jeweler. One of only about 135 nationwide. That is a certification process that is managed by the trade organization Jewelers of America.  Perhaps that is similar to becoming or achieving a bladesmithing title like journeyman smith or master bladesmith from ABS.  Perhaps there is something similar from ABANA, being new at blacksmithing, I don't know.  It is mostly a test for aptitude and precision. So what does that mean? Does it make me an "expert" at a jewelers bench? Few get this certification because like anything else it requires a commitment of time, money, and the base and advanced abilities to pass the required testing of skill sets necessary to prove you CAN do master level work. So again, does this make me an expert?

I have learned you can research, read, study, and do everything possible to learn a craft or skill, maybe even attend some classes or workshops, and that is all very valuable but no way will you ever achieve any level of competence and certainly no "master" or "expert" level or even proficient at a craft, until you actually DO it. And do it A LOT, over and over. By that I mean likely years of trial & error and making mistakes and breaking things and learning from those mistakes.  One can shorten those years and errors by relying on those who have already honed those skills and acquired a certain level of proficiency, whether we call that a master or and expert.  This is why people USED to learn a skilll or craft by working as an apprentice....for years. 

Blacksmithing has been around for centuries and when we take up a hammer, steel, forge, and anvil we're not exactly doing something new.  I suspect more knowledge has been lost through the centuries than most modern blacksmiths will ever possess. Not exactly new "cutting edge" technology going on hammering hot steel at an anvil! That certainly in no way diminishes the skills necessary and time required to "master" the craft or become what could be considered an "expert".  Just this is a craft that is thousands of years old.

And I've learned, some people just don't have it. Just cannot do certain things or at least, not at a required level of proficiency or quality.

The most valuable thing I've learned through the years? 1. I don't know it all. 2. I don't have all the answers. 3. There's more than one way to skin a cat, i.e. more than one way to do things...usually.

And most important, 4. There is ALWAYS someone, who has information or technique that I don't know and I'm always willing to learn a new way or new skill.  Prideful thinking that I "know it all" is really foolish.  "The way of a fool seems right in his own eyes but a wise man listens to advice." 

Anyway, I'm rambling with these musings...

[jlpservicesinc]

6 minutes ago, gote said:

I do not disagree with you at all but did not want to elaborate the point too much in an already long post. What I mean is that the elasticity in a block of wood is unimportant if the anvil is heavy enough compared to the hammer. (And that the so well educated and experienced poster should know all about it in the first place). I try to say that stability is more important and I think you are agreeing to that. By the way my hobby horse is that anvils should be supported along the rim because that silences them and gives stability. I asume you know that some people do put rubber under their anvil to silence them and seem to be happy. The rookie seems to call a solid block of wood "bouncy". Just as there are degrees in a certain hot pace there seems to be degrees in bouncing. By the way I myself and all blacksmiths  around here use anvils that weigh in well above 200 pounds and these do not rock or bounce even if not clamped to the stand. And, as you write, it is a question of kinetics. My anvil may rock if hit obliquely with a ten pound sledgehammer but I do not do that.

NIce..   Great reply..    yes I do know people use rubber.. I don't fault them for it.. It's what they choose and I'm happy for them..  I think sometimes I come off gruff..  I don't judge anybody for what they do..  There is no BAD or shouldn't..  Try it out.. You like it,  good for yah..  I just choose otherwise.. 

 

 I still choose to mount the anvil solid.. Usually ferrous to wood, or ferrous to wood to ferrous,, Or ferrous to leather shim to ferrous..  I also aim to make as much direct contact between the anvil and it's mounting base as possible.. Ideally the stand or block should be leveled to the anvil feet/base.. Barring this leather shims can be employed as these will take a set over time and become hard as rock..  

 If an anvil is securely bolted down the ring is just about removed as the vibrations (which are the ringing) are damped because of the changes in wave length through out the anvil, mount, bolts and stand,  without having to have a resonance destroyer which is what any rubber does.. Just touch the anvil while hitting it and you can feel the resonance.  Even compressed with the anvil on top the rubber it will still give (compress) somewhat.

Engineering types can argue by the time the hammer hits and the pressure from the hammer compresses the hot steel against the stationary block because of the mass  it doesn't matter that it's loosely mounted or not.. And on paper they would be correct.. If it was an instant hit..  

Personally even with a 200lbs anvil it still to light for  me to not move around when I'm working..  I had a 330lbs that used to walk across the floor in use.. Anyhow,  If the 200 or heavier works for you without being secured.. Good to go.. It's all good.. 

I bolt all my anvils down..   I started doing that in the late 80's..  Here's the video of the 368HB.. It's just about dead quite.. Not like an Eagle or cast iron anvil but like a well silenced forged anvil..   

 

9 minutes ago, WNC Goater said:

Blacksmithing has been around for centuries and when we take up a hammer, steel, forge, and anvil we're not exactly doing something new.  I suspect more knowledge has been lost through the centuries than most modern blacksmiths will ever possess. Not exactly new "cutting edge" technology going on hammering hot steel at an anvil! That certainly in no way diminishes the skills necessary and time required to "master" the craft or become what could be considered an "expert".  Just this is a craft that is thousands of years old.

And I've learned, some people just don't have it. Just cannot do certain things or at least, not at a required level of proficiency or quality.

The most valuable thing I've learned through the years? 1. I don't know it all. 2. I don't have all the answers. 3. There's more than one way to skin a cat, i.e. more than one way to do things...usually.

And most important, 4. There is ALWAYS someone, who has information or technique that I don't know and I'm always willing to learn a new way or new skill.  Prideful thinking that I "know it all" is really foolish.  "The way of a fool seems right in his own eyes but a wise man listens to advice." Proverbs 12:15

Anyway, I'm rambling with these musings...

Well said and totally agree.. 

[Smoggy]

16 hours ago, rookieironman said:

I have stopped listening to "experts".

I am somewhat perplexed to see that no one has thus far taken the time to comment on your choice and comviction, so I shall. Good on you, I am always impressed by individuals who are prepaired to make their bed and lie in it.

[SLAG]

Mr. Rookieironman,

You state that, (& I quote),

"I have stopped listening to "experts"  "

So why do you continue to visit this site?

SLAG.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I always listen to "experts" and learn from other's mistakes because I will never live long enough to make all of the mistakes on my own.

[Glenn]

Surround yourself with folks more knowledgable than you are. They know where the potholes in the road are located and how to avoid them. They also know the direct route from A to B and the short cuts when they are needed.

[Alan Evans]

A wise man learns from his mistakes...the lucky man learns from the mistakes of others...

Alan