Hawgdirt

Interested in farrier work

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6 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

When I started this in 89 there were maybe 15 full time farriers in about a 75mile radius..  now there is maybe 60 or more.. Some part time, some full time but there are more horse today then have been in 30 years..  

The exponential explosion of people out there trying to do this is easily believable.  It's everywhere not just where you're from.

As to the claim of there being more horses...... Sorry, gotta call bs on that. Do you have any credible sources you can cite for that claim?

George

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out this way the number has been going down as it became more and more expensive to keep a horse correctly.  For a while they were practically giving them away on Craigslist!

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11 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

out this way the number has been going down as it became more and more expensive to keep a horse correctly.  For a while they were practically giving them away on Craigslist!

I believe it. Matter of fact does anybody under 40 even go horseback riding anymore?

On the issue of apprenticeships today's tip of the day on the other website was I think very good dealing with the subject, especially following the hyper link.

http://horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/1000-blacksmith-employment/

I would say to the OP.... DO NOT at any time for any reason EVER, work without pay. Those of us who are or were JHU would never stand for it. Don't do it and have nothing to do with anybody who won't pay you. You have nothing to learn from people like that.

George

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What I should have said is "in the northeast there are just as many or more than back in the 80's.."

There are a lot of places that got hit really hard in the recession and still are struggling..

Here most the culling took place about 3 years after the major collapse, but it stabilized and has been on a steady growth... 

 

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My next door neighbors teach polo down here, at church we have a set of kids, she's does barrel racing and he does roping, don't know if they are in their teens yet...its a culturally horsey area. However the drastic increase in costs to provide good  care is chasing a lot of the fringe folks away.  Up in Socorro I have a neighbor say he budgeted US$12000 a year per horse to cover good feed, regular shoeing and Vet bills. Of course he runs a paint horse stud farm and so keeps his horses very well indeed. 

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In just the last few years according to USDA:

http://www.drf.com/news/usda-census-agriculture-reveals-decline-horse-population

Also we have this from '92 to '02 http://www.igha.org/equids02.html

Interestingly enough, this one claims 6.9 million equids in the US. When I started shoeing for other people in 1980 there were almost 10 million and Lord knows a heckuva lot more farms.

We can conclude that in almost 40 years we've lost about 3 million horses. That's the unpleasant truth. Meanwhile we've seen the numbers of fly by night schools jump from only a handful to well over 60 at last count. They mass produce horseshoers in maximum numbers with no regard to what they do to the marketplace. Add to that some Barefoot Lunatic Fringe elements and fad shoeing gurus which create a perfect storm scenario and sadly although it never was something people got rich at, it's become something most people aren't going to make a living at anymore.

The unregulated free for all nature of it always was a problem but it was still doable in spite of it. The declining horse numbers are what's killing it. Literally choking the life out of the trade. I'm glad I caught the tail end of when it was still good. In those days it really was the greatest job in the world.

George

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Sounds like me. I got into blacksmithing on a whim (local forge meetup). I enjoyed working metal so much that I attended a 500 hour welding/fitting training course. Have had two job offers since, but recently decided to attend a horseshoeing school instead.

Like Hawgdirt, I have not spent much time with horses. I wanted to take riding lessons when I was young, but my dad was adamantly against it due to being kicked by a pony as a child. I've ridden a few times as an adult. My girlfriend's family had horses on their farm, but that stopped when a racehorse rescue kicked and killed the family dog. Their opinion on the trade is that there's a high likelihood of injury. They said the same thing when I went to welding school. I'm not on their good side right now, so maybe they're just airing their hopes!

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In regards to the increasing number of schools: Perhaps it just depends on the area. I personally have yet to meet anyone in person who wants to be a farrier, let alone an actual working farrier. I did meet one fellow who said he took to trimming his own horses because he could never get one to show up!

The same fellow claimed that in a nearby county, due to retirements there were now only 2 or 3 farriers in the area and they were all booked up. I'm doubtful as there's a horseshoeing school here within a two hour drive. However, I've heard many people attending school just want to learn to shoe or trim their own horses. Makes sense with the rising costs in horse care.

An uncited statistic I read: 1 in 10 practicing farriers continue with the trade after 1 year. As a comparison,  nearly every student at my welding school got job offers. Some companies were showing up and pulling people out of class.  Obviously that's a different scenario, but as a former independent contractor I know that many people do not last long in self employment. It is often difficult to do successfully on the side, both from an economic perspective and in terms of skill development.

Another thought: The Post 911 GI Bill has made it far easier for veterans to attend trade schools. I recall hearing once or twice that there used to be quite a few horseshoeing schools prior to the 1950's, but a huge number went out of business after the VA decided to stop paying for them. Maybe things are simply going the opposite way?

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On 5/16/2017 at 6:21 PM, ThomasPowers said:

out this way the number has been going down as it became more and more expensive to keep a horse correctly.  For a while they were practically giving them away on Craigslist!

A few years back I was purchasing a truck from a horse breeder. He told me he had been doing it for some time. I asked him what made him decide to get into it.

His response: "Well, I had a bunch of money and it seemed like a good way to throw it all away."

I started to laugh, but then noticed his family and employees were completely straight faced and silent.

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On 5/16/2017 at 8:20 PM, George Geist said:

In just the last few years according to USDA:

http://www.drf.com/news/usda-census-agriculture-reveals-decline-horse-population

Also we have this from '92 to '02 http://www.igha.org/equids02.html

Interestingly enough, this one claims 6.9 million equids in the US. When I started shoeing for other people in 1980 there were almost 10 million and Lord knows a heckuva lot more farms.

We can conclude that in almost 40 years we've lost about 3 million horses. That's the unpleasant truth. Meanwhile we've seen the numbers of fly by night schools jump from only a handful to well over 60 at last count. They mass produce horseshoers in maximum numbers with no regard to what they do to the marketplace. Add to that some Barefoot Lunatic Fringe elements and fad shoeing gurus which create a perfect storm scenario and sadly although it never was something people got rich at, it's become something most people aren't going to make a living at anymore.

The unregulated free for all nature of it always was a problem but it was still doable in spite of it. The declining horse numbers are what's killing it. Literally choking the life out of the trade. I'm glad I caught the tail end of when it was still good. In those days it really was the greatest job in the world.

George

That Barefoot lunitic fringe would be me.. Over 20 years now.. Still make less money than I did 20 years ago..  Real money is in the shoeing.. But I feel so much better about the job I do and so do the horses.. I see it time and time again..  

 

The statistics may show that there are less horses and I would agree overall but in that same token some places in this here USA are really still hit by the economics... It really depends on where you are located..  I'm working 6 to 7 days  week..  MInd you I get referrerls by Vets and as always word of mouth is the key seller..  Just in the last 12 years of living where I do there are 20 new back yard pony pens with maybe an increase of 40 horses.. Just down the road a person just moved in with 7.. 

As for knowledge.. The Farrier trade like any  has a huge spectrum of knowledge and differences between each person..  This knowledge if applied correctly can get you a better $ per hour.. 99.9% of the horses I do are barefoot..  I have a very small number of horses that get shoes.. These are new customers who come to me because the horses are lame..  99% of the customers I have are because they had lame horses and called me to fix the problem.. And well thats exactly what I do.. 

Anyhow,,    The customers who are new and want to ride during the summer their horses are usually screwed up enough that pulling the shoes with the level of work the people want would cripple the horse.(In Extreme cases of lameness the shoes always get pulled).. So the shoes get pulled first snow fall as the snow acts as a natural anti inflammatory and keeps swelling down..  A pair of shoes up to size 2 takes about 20minutes from start to finish including trimming the rear feet..  4 shoes about 35 to 45 minutes..    Trimming takes me between 8-12 minutes per horse.. YUP all 4 feet in 8-12minutes..  Used to take me 5.. Getting old.. 

Anyhow, there is always more money in shoes. At least till people really understand Barefoot and the advantages it offers..

Today I'll be putting shoes on an emergency call and will post pictures later.. 

 

6 hours ago, thewanderer said:

In regards to the increasing number of schools: Perhaps it just depends on the area. I personally have yet to meet anyone in person who wants to be a farrier, let alone an actual working farrier. I did meet one fellow who said he took to trimming his own horses because he could never get one to show up!

The same fellow claimed that in a nearby county, due to retirements there were now only 2 or 3 farriers in the area and they were all booked up. I'm doubtful as there's a horseshoeing school here within a two hour drive. However, I've heard many people attending school just want to learn to shoe or trim their own horses. Makes sense with the rising costs in horse care.

An uncited statistic I read: 1 in 10 practicing farriers continue with the trade after 1 year. As a comparison,  nearly every student at my welding school got job offers. Some companies were showing up and pulling people out of class.  Obviously that's a different scenario, but as a former independent contractor I know that many people do not last long in self employment. It is often difficult to do successfully on the side, both from an economic perspective and in terms of skill development.

Another thought: The Post 911 GI Bill has made it far easier for veterans to attend trade schools. I recall hearing once or twice that there used to be quite a few horseshoeing schools prior to the 1950's, but a huge number went out of business after the VA decided to stop paying for them. Maybe things are simply going the opposite way?

While some really love the farrier job (it is extremely challenging both physically and mentally) It comes down to how hard someone wants to work..   Basically its a young persons job simply because as you get older you can't work at the same speed..   One certainly gets better and more efficient as one ages up to a certain point but you simply can't work as fast.. Other thing is the body starts to hurt.   If you have ample customers you will be lucky enough to hire and apprentice.    Lots of people go into farrier school  and get out and as stated can't get into the market or is extremely slow going taking years... so they do it part time.. 

Unless you know of a farrier going out of business and by his contact list and be introduced it's very hard to get a leg up.. 

I never planned on becoming a full time farrier..  I did it to add to the General Blacksmith moniker like the old time smiths..   I've done pretty much everything you can count as an early american blacksmiths skill set.. 

I had been called by one person when I was done with my apprenticeship.. I then got another.. And then out of the blue the guy I did my apprenticeship with called and gave me 10 customers he had no interested in doing any longer.. Said for me to call them..  I called them and I still have 50% of them as customers.. That was 25+ ago.. 

The guy who I served my apprenticeship with is still shoeing horses for a living..   

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I've known farriers who quit in their 60's due to injuries and farriers who quit in their 20's due to injuries---get good health insurance! Most self employed folks are 1 accident from bankruptcy.

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On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 7:39 PM, George Geist said:

Matter of fact does anybody under 40 even go horseback riding anymore?

Oh yes there are. I live about 4 miles from a large horse Assoc. here in VT I read this week they hold 200 events on their grounds from mid April to late Oct and that doesn't include individuals using areas for training.  these will be 80%+ under 40 and big $$.  Some weekends with a 3 day event there will be 100 or more Truck and large AC trailers go by my place all well over $100,000 and they aren't carrying E-bay horses either.  But at the same time we were driving around the surrounding area yesterday and passed 3 large horse "Farms" with large beautiful horse barns, round pins and fully enclosed arenas nicely fenced pastures and turn outs, empty and for sale. These aren't but 5-6 yrs old either multi Million $ places huge houses.  Dreams of somebodies down the drain. 

So there is a calling for Farriers and Vets but their degrees and certificates will be looked closely at before they pick up a hoof, right or wrong that is the way of the world.  Now keeping a backyard horse or two has  gotten prohibitive for the kids with costs of farriers, vets, Hay at $5 a sq. bale, grain to say nothing of tack.  I've heard of a couple horse 4 H clubs giving up because of so few kids with horses now that would  be in 4 H.  

Now this is just my corner of the world which has a lot of corners. 

As Thomas says there are Farriers of all ages who  have given up because of injuries short and long term not a matter of if just when. 

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9 minutes ago, notownkid said:

Oh yes there are. I live about 4 miles from a large horse Assoc. here in VT I read this week they hold 200 events on their grounds from mid April to late Oct and that doesn't include individuals using areas for training.  these will be 80%+ under 40 and big $$.  Some weekends with a 3 day event there will be 100 or more Truck and large AC trailers go by my place all well over $100,000 and they aren't carrying E-bay horses either.  But at the same time we were driving around the surrounding area yesterday and passed 3 large horse "Farms" with large beautiful horse barns, round pins and fully enclosed arenas nicely fenced pastures and turn outs, empty and for sale. These aren't but 5-6 yrs old either multi Million $ places huge houses.  Dreams of somebodies down the drain. 

So there is a calling for Farriers and Vets but their degrees and certificates will be looked closely at before they pick up a hoof, right or wrong that is the way of the world.  Now keeping a backyard horse or two has  gotten prohibitive for the kids with costs of farriers, vets, Hay at $5 a sq. bale, grain to say nothing of tack.  I've heard of a couple horse 4 H clubs giving up because of so few kids with horses now that would  be in 4 H.  

Now this is just my corner of the world which has a lot of corners. 

As Thomas says there are Farriers of all ages who  have given up because of injuries short and long term not a matter of if just when. 

Down in MA depending on where your located hay can be up to 13.00 a bale..   We pay 7.00 a bale..  

As to certifications..  While certifications show the person has met a minimum standard the complexity of the horses hoof and how it actually works is still not taught.. I went a few days ago to a person who called because they have a weekend camp trip to go to and their farrier has blown them off for months.. Anyhow I know the guy who had done them and is certified..  Icky... :(  Toes distorted, heels distorted, soles thin as paper. flairs all the way around. frogs narrow, heels to long, toes to long.. etc. etc. 

Traditional farrier schools don't really address the feet from a healing perspective. they address only usefulness. and the problems are just made to last longer.. Kind of like Western vs eastern medicine.. 

Sadly the same problems have plague horses for a few thousand years as they moved from open grazing into confined spaces.   Modern Stabling practices and modern traditional farrier training do not address any of these problems so the problems persist..   Navicular, laminitus, Founder and Cushings are human induced diseases..

Horses kick for a reason, .. Not because they are not well trained.. But if someone hurt you every time you saw them would you stand there? 

Anyhow the list goes on and on..   Horses feet want to be a particular shape.. They want a certain mass.. They also want a certain amount of sole, wall and frog pressure.. These create the ground or weight bearing surface on the ground.  Blah, blah, blah.. 

What ever you decide..   Going into farrier work while it can be a good living..  It is a tough gig and as pointed out the likely hood of getting hurt is very high.. As a new farrier lots of time you will be called because a horse has a bad track record and the owner landed on your number..  

There are ways to apply horse shoes which are healthier than traditional methods which involve mapping out a horses foot..  This is a start and stepping stone but ideally finding a farrier to serve and apprenticeship with that wants to heal the problems vs just maintenance would be ideal..

This is a great place to start..  Gene and his son's run the place.. I got to work with Gene 1 on 1 and he really helped me to see there is more to farrier work than slapping a shoe on..  I used to be listed as a farrier on his site..

 http://hopeforsoundness.com/

Pete Ramey was a promoter of barefoot way back..  Great resource pages..  

http://www.hoofrehab.com/

 

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I reckon for the time being I'm just gonna focus on blacksmithing and learning the trade. I'm rather exhausted from tracking down farriers.  Meet with one today,  after telling him I have 0 experience over the phone.  I drive 45 minutes to meet up with him. After I get there we chatted for a bit and said he can't really teach me on racing horses. He recommends I go to a school then call him.  Watched him shoe a horse,  sorta felt like I was wasting my time since he ain't gonna teach me anything, so I left.  It's possible maybe I missed something but I figured, maybe you could've told me over the phone that you can't teach someone with no experience? So with that being said gonna put farrier work on the back burner and just focus on blacksmithing. 

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18 minutes ago, Hawgdirt said:

I reckon for the time being I'm just gonna focus on blacksmithing and learning the trade. I'm rather exhausted from tracking down farriers.  Meet with one today,  after telling him I have 0 experience over the phone.  I drive 45 minutes to meet up with him. After I get there we chatted for a bit and said he can't really teach me on racing horses. He recommends I go to a school then call him.  Watched him shoe a horse,  sorta felt like I was wasting my time since he ain't gonna teach me anything, so I left.  It's possible maybe I missed something but I figured, maybe you could've told me over the phone that you can't teach someone with no experience? So with that being said gonna put farrier work on the back burner and just focus on blacksmithing. 

there are ways to get some education before you get exposure..      The links I posted will give you some info and if you are really interested it will serve as background info for when or if you start your training as a farrier. 

Sometimes, there are road blocks or obstacles to what it is that you want to do..    Sometimes those road blocks test to see what it is you really want..    

Old expression..  Where there is a will there is a way..  

Timing was/is everything..  and there is no such thing as coincidence.. 

 

what did you get out of watching him?   

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It definitely looks like something I'd enjoy doing part time. Seems like it'd be easier to make a little income on the side from farrier work then blacksmithing.  Just gonna go with the flow,  stop trying to force things and learn all I can about blacksmithing. 

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It's steady work and with having the same customers every month or so it creates a steady cash flow..  But like anything.. If it isn't done on a regular consistent basis ones work can get pretty sloppy or take a really long time.. Both are bad habits to get into and the horses will let you know and get impatient.. 

 Takes 5-12minutes for a trim all 4 feet, 20-30minutes for front shoes including trimming and shaping shoes.. 40-50minutes for 4 shoes..  These are how long it takes me generally on horses up to size 2 shoe..  When you first start shoeing it will take maybe 1.5hrs until you develop enough muscle to stand in the proper position.. 

anyhow, keep at it..    

As for the blacksmithing and income..     Your time is worth something and if producing nice stuff should be charging accordingly.. 

 I want to say is: don't low ball your work just to sell something..    It will come back to bite you in the end. 

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10 hours ago, Hawgdirt said:

after telling him I have 0 experience over the phone

After telling him you had 0 experience and him meeting you and Chatting with him while watching him shoe he knew fast on you had 0 experience.

Coming from  a family of former race horse owners I would not have been happy with a farrier that was teaching an 0 experienced person  farrier work on one of our horses.  We the  owners would know fast on as well of your experience.

So the bottom line here is you need experience with horses so  go  get some, it should be easier to get a post working around horses than finding a farrier but plan on entering this at a less than desirable position usually cleaning stalls at the end of a shovel and handles of a wheelbarrow.  It truly is starting at the bottom and working up. 

1 hour ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 But like anything.. If it isn't done on a regular consistent basis ones work can get pretty sloppy or take a really long time.. Both are bad habits to get into and the horses will let you know and get impatient.. 

jlp is soooo right here, any farriers I've tried to use that were part time were hard to schedule, they only wanted to hear from you when they needed money not when the horse needed attention, they took forever and hardly ever had what they needed to  do the job, one even asked to "borrow" some nails half way through the shoeing as he had "run out", to me that is sloppy work.  In this case I loaded the horse half shod drove 125 miles to a former farrier who had moved away to get the job done and he  had to remove the two shoes the part timer had put on as the hoof wasn't level and not trimmed correct.  If your going to be a farrier be one and train to be the best.

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I understand that someone with no experience should not be learning on a 100k+ horse. My point is if he had no interest in teaching me then a phone call would've been just fine. I didn't know he only shod race horses.  It's not that big of a deal I was just saying it was a little aggravating as soon as I get there he tells me he can't train me. But it's alright I'm not dependent on getting a job so it's really not an issue.

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51 minutes ago, Hawgdirt said:

I understand that someone with no experience should not be learning on a 100k+ horse. My point is if he had no interest in teaching me then a phone call would've been just fine. I didn't know he only shod race horses.  It's not that big of a deal I was just saying it was a little aggravating as soon as I get there he tells me he can't train me. But it's alright I'm not dependent on getting a job so it's really not an issue.

A lot of the time..  You might not realize it but you are " Being interviewed".        Someone calls me up and says they want to apprentice.  First thing I ask is "What is your experience?  ..  Next question is  "Why"?        

I really don't care about the first question..   I care about the second one..    

I tell the person to come watch me work..     If they are willing to take the time out of their day to come watch and they start asking good questions.. It makes a world of difference.. 

It tells me they have done some research and are really interested in the farrier science..  Not farrier money..      To me the health of the horse is the primary Concern all else means snot..     I want a person who takes the health of the horse, and the feet above all else and is looking for the knowledge to gain both..   

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1 hour ago, Hawgdirt said:

I understand that someone with no experience should not be learning on a 100k+ horse. 

i think a horse is a horse, regardless of price tag. shoot, the first 2 horses i shoed solo were a stunt drivers horses contracted out to 20th century Fox, and my boss had no problem. and He didn't even have insurance....

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5 minutes ago, Tubalcain2 said:

i think a horse is a horse, regardless of price tag. shoot, the first 2 horses i shoed solo were a stunt drivers horses contracted out to 20th century Fox, and my boss had no problem. and He didn't even have insurance....

PLus 1..   Thumbs up.

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14 hours ago, Hawgdirt said:

I reckon for the time being I'm just gonna focus on blacksmithing and learning the trade. I'm rather exhausted from tracking down farriers.  Meet with one today,  after telling him I have 0 experience over the phone.  I drive 45 minutes to meet up with him. After I get there we chatted for a bit and said he can't really teach me on racing horses. He recommends I go to a school then call him.  Watched him shoe a horse,  sorta felt like I was wasting my time since he ain't gonna teach me anything, so I left.  It's possible maybe I missed something but I figured, maybe you could've told me over the phone that you can't teach someone with no experience? So with that being said gonna put farrier work on the back burner and just focus on blacksmithing. 

Good plan, fact of the matter is you really don't have much to learn from most contemporary racetrack shoers. Especially guys who do running horses. If you have the time and money the best way to really learn it is out of the country. England and Ireland probably being at the top of the list. Germany requires people to be an accomplished smith before they let you touch a horse. This is also good.

As far as stuff to read, with the exceptions of Gregory and Miller's excellent books I'd recommend not reading anything written after 1990.

George

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33 minutes ago, George Geist said:

Good plan, fact of the matter is you really don't have much to learn from most contemporary racetrack shoers. Especially guys who do running horses. If you have the time and money the best way to really learn it is out of the country. England and Ireland probably being at the top of the list. Germany requires people to be an accomplished smith before they let you touch a horse. This is also good.

As far as stuff to read, with the exceptions of Gregory and Miller's excellent books I'd recommend not reading anything written after 1990.

George

Thats funny..    I find the old stuff fun to read but they still talk about the same problems they have been having for 100's of years.. Doug Butlers book was good.. So were the old Calvary books..  But they are great from vintage stand point..    

they address or talk about problems that exist because of how the horses are shod..   Heel corns, hoof ravel. navicular, flairs.. Sesamoid bone fractures, Ring bone, side bone..  The insanity of it all..  these ( partially or lesser degree Sesamoid bone fractures, bad breeding and early stabling) are culprits of imbalance.. Or a lack of proper hoof balance and support.

Understanding what each tissue in the foot does and how or what it is responding to is far more important and is addressed in much more recent papers, articles, and places Like EDSS.com and the like..

http://www.abchoofcare.com/

https://www.aanhcp.net/

https://www.edsshoofcare.com/

Every horse for any given terrain will have different needs..  Hoof function becomes the key to soundness..  Supporting the tissues that need it, leads to a horses longevity.. 

In Europe for many disciplines, they consider a horse of 20 to be of prime...  In the USA a 20 year old horse is just about considered over the hill.. 

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1 minute ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Thats funny..    I find the old stuff fun to read but they still talk about the same problems they have been having for 100's of years.. Doug Butlers book was good.. So were the old Calvary books..  But they are great from vintage stand point..  

Being as that 95 to 100% of what is known about the trade was known by 1900 they're excellent reads.

Like I said nothing before 1990 as that is when the waters were muddied by a lot of slick marketing sophistry so common in the land where a good line of bull goes farthest.

 

1 minute ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

they address or talk about problems that exist because of how the horses are shod..   Heel corns, hoof ravel. navicular, flairs.. Sesamoid bone fractures, Ring bone, side bone..  The insanity of it all..  these ( partially or lesser degree Sesamoid bone fractures, bad breeding and early stabling) are culprits of imbalance.. Or a lack of proper hoof balance and support.

Ok, up till now I've let all this go but being as you have no intention of ending this drivel anytime soon I just wouldn't be me if I didn't nuke some of this crap. Not a single thing you mentioned in that list is or ever has been caused by shoeing.

Before you go into any diatribes about balance first define it for us.

1 minute ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Understanding what each tissue in the foot does and how or what it is responding to is far more important and is addressed in much more recent papers, articles, and places Like EDSS.com and the like..

I'm kinda surprised to still be seeing this. 10 years ago this kind of stuff was all over the internet ad nauseum. All of it has been debunked even by former followers of it. Gene O was successfully sued by Duckett. Ramey failed as a shoer so went into business of peddling boots. LaPierre was proven to be a fraud who never mastered pulling a clip.

First rule of being successful is not to listen to people who have failed at what you're trying to do. These people are failures. They never shod horses for a living and have no rightful place in the industry.

Wanna get me started on Strasser too?

George

1 minute ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

 

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