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On 5/22/2017 at 7:45 AM, jlpservicesinc said:

 

As to certifications..  While certifications show the person has met a minimum standard the complexity of the horses hoof and how it actually works is still not taught.

In the absense of compulsory testing followed by state licensing, certification is best we've got. I wouldn't fly on an airplane with a pilot who hadn't passed his tests and earned his license. Should be the same for horseshoers. It's in the public interest.

On 5/22/2017 at 7:45 AM, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

. I went a few days ago to a person who called because they have a weekend camp trip to go to and their farrier has blown them off for months.. Anyhow I know the guy who had done them and is certified..  Icky... :(  Toes distorted, heels distorted, soles thin as paper. flairs all the way around. frogs narrow, heels to long, toes to long.. etc. etc. 

 So what exactly are you trying to say? Somehow or another because he earned his certification he lost ability to being worse than those without?:huh:

Issues you described are 100% caused by owner neglect. Have nothing to do with the shoer. Trashing someone else and their work is not only unprofessional but is also a major sign of insecurity.

On 5/22/2017 at 7:45 AM, jlpservicesinc said:

 

Sadly the same problems have plague horses for a few thousand years as they moved from open grazing into confined spaces.   Modern Stabling practices and modern traditional farrier training do not address any of these problems so the problems persist..   Navicular, laminitus, Founder and Cushings are human induced diseases..

Navicular- can best be prevented by keeping the stallion away from the mare. I'll grant you that one. Nothing to do with shoeing.

Laminitis, Founder- Essentially same thing. Bet you knew that. Been happening forever. Is only human induced when injections are given to induce as is done in research labs. Can happen anytime anywhere to shod or barefoot. Not only is shoeing not a cause but is often prescribed as a treatment.

Cushings- tumor of pituitary gland. Happens with age. Perhaps if we shot every horse on or around their 15th birthday we could eradicate it. Again, not caused by shoeing

On 5/22/2017 at 7:45 AM, jlpservicesinc said:

Horses kick for a reason, .. Not because they are not well trained.. But if someone hurt you every time you saw them would you stand there? 

Kicking is intolerable. Is a direct reflection upon the people. Ill broke pukes are made not born and any of them kick me they get more than just hurt.

On 5/22/2017 at 7:45 AM, jlpservicesinc said:

Anyhow the list goes on and on..   Horses feet want to be a particular shape.. They want a certain mass.. They also want a certain amount of sole, wall and frog pressure.. These create the ground or weight bearing surface on the ground.  Blah, blah, blah.. 

All easily achieved by any competent practitioner. No need to be trying to make the trade into something it's not.

On 5/22/2017 at 7:45 AM, jlpservicesinc said:

 

There are ways to apply horse shoes which are healthier than traditional methods which involve mapping out a horses foot..  This is a start and stepping stone but ideally finding a farrier to serve and apprenticeship with that wants to heal the problems vs just maintenance would be ideal..

Sorry, not all of us are impressed by drawing lines on a sole with a sharpie for purposes of bs'ing a gullible owner.

Trimming is work of a first week apprentice and is least thing a competent shoer ought to get right.

On 5/22/2017 at 7:45 AM, jlpservicesinc said:

This is a great place to start..  Gene and his son's run the place.. I got to work with Gene 1 on 1 and he really helped me to see there is more to farrier work than slapping a shoe on..  I used to be listed as a farrier on his site..

 http://hopeforsoundness.com/

Pete Ramey was a promoter of barefoot way back..  Great resource pages..  

http://www.hoofrehab.com/

 

Talked about these guys in last post. Question is why are you no longer listed?

Perhaps because the whole thing imploded and they have no active members to list anymore?

This book blows all of it out of the water:

http://www.centaurforge.com/The-Mirage-of-the-Natural-Foot/productinfo/BK2090/

George

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7 hours ago, George Geist said:

In the absense of compulsory testing followed by state licensing, certification is best we've got. I wouldn't fly on an airplane with a pilot who hadn't passed his tests and earned his license. Should be the same for horseshoers. It's in the public interest.

 So what exactly are you trying to say? Somehow or another because he earned his certification he lost ability to being worse than those without?:huh:

I'm trying to say that..  While certification sets a minimum standard it should only be a stepping stone to further understanding.  And with the same problems going on or taking place as long as there has been published Data.. Don't you think it's time that these issues are fixed instead of dealing with the problems once they exist and it's to late..  

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Issues you described are 100% caused by owner neglect. Have nothing to do with the shoer. Trashing someone else and their work is not only unprofessional but is also a major sign of insecurity.

   I wish that were the case.. That it was only owner error that is..   I've gotten 13 new customers since the 1st of the year with lame horses all in shoes..  I've gotten 30 new customers in the last 10 years all from bad shoe jobs.. 

it's only trashing someone if you mention their name..    Some people do good work.. Some people don't.. It's a matter of fact no matter what job you are in (some people are workers, some are system players and do the least they can do)..     Good mechanics, bad mechanics, Good plumbers, bad blumbers.. Good blacksmiths, bad blacksmiths, etc, etc.. 

     If you show a hoof to 15 different farriers and ask them to trim it.. You will get 15 different results..   If a foot is perfectly trimmed (what's a perfect trim?) there will still be someone wanting to trim it differently.. 

 

The positive nature of Mapping is you will get more consistent results..  And while you may not agree.. It levels those differences between a great number of people.. It also allows for groups to compare results as the process unfolds..   Better than, Your going to trim the sole till you get sole pressure, (IE pair away the sole until all the dead stuff is gone) then form a shelf, place nippers in shelf with about 1/8" above sole..  Now smooth and make level with rasp..   

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Navicular- can best be prevented by keeping the stallion away from the mare. I'll grant you that one. Nothing to do with shoeing.

Navicular is best prevented by getting the hoof balanced and getting the weight bearing where it needs to be from the day the horse is born. Not once there is a problem.. . Not all Navicular is gene pool related though certain breeds are more prone to it than others.. 

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Laminitis, Founder- Essentially same thing. Bet you knew that. Been happening forever. Is only human induced when injections are given to induce as is done in research labs. Can happen anytime anywhere to shod or barefoot. Not only is shoeing not a cause but is often prescribed as a treatment.

No they are not..  Laminitis is the inflammation of the laminae. Both acute and chronic.  Founder is when the tissues start to fail/shear/stretch and P3 rotates or Founders just like when a boat founders and was coined from that very thing..  While laminitus has many onsets,  Short term high dose exposure to sugars is a main culprit.. Obese horses when put into work can have a glucose reaction/release and get laminitus from such releases as the body can't process the sugars fast enough.. 

A horse (general term) can have laminitus and not be foundered.. But it can not be foundered and not have laminitus.. 

Long term exposures to Sugars is what leads to changes in the Pituitary gland. Young horse can get Cushings . This is what cushings is all about.. Again sugar related.. from overly sugared feeds, or excessive grassy turn out.  

www.Safergrass.org..  

Never said.. Laminitus was caused by shoeing nor cushings.. I stated these were mainly "Man made diseases".. And a lack of proper care.. 

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Cushings- tumor of pituitary gland. Happens with age. Perhaps if we shot every horse on or around their 15th birthday we could eradicate it. Again, not caused by shoeing

Age combined with long term exposure to sugars..     Cushings was relatively rare 20 years ago in my area.. As was laminitus unless the horses or ponies were exposed to sugar rich feeds or busted into the feed bin or on grass.. 

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Kicking is intolerable. Is a direct reflection upon the people. Ill broke pukes are made not born and any of them kick me they get more than just hurt.

YUP.. Your right it is a direct reflection upon people.. It's exactly what I said..           

Oh, lets see.. in the last 6 months I have been called for 5 horses that the owners claimed were bad and kickers..  2 stallion minis.. 1 Appaloosa, 1 QH. 1 Fjord.. 

One of the mini stallion in fact when the owner walked in the stall it was on it's hind legs trying to punch the guy in the face.. This went on for 5 minutes..    

The guy eventually got the halter on with a lead..  The guy walked the mini out.. I said I'll take it from here.. I then told the guy to go stand over by the wall about 10ft away.. 

I then dropped the lead on the ground  and trimmed all 4 feet with no incident.. took oh 10minutes I think.. I then brought both feet forwards 1 at a time and rounded them up..   I looked over to the guy and his jaw was just about on the ground.. He walked over and asked me if I drugged the horse when he wasn't looking.... He was astonished with how well the little fella stood....  They were all perfect..   He then told me the last 3 farriers had to fight with 2 of the minis.. I looked an asked why?  They are perfectly behaved..  I've been back 4 times..   This last time.. I walked into the paddock and one of the minis came over and I put the lead on.. Dropped it on the ground and did all 4 feet..  again perfect..   I had the mini Done before the guy even got to the barn from the house.  

The guy then thanked me and said" Ever since you have been coming the horses have just been more friendly and I don't need to fight with them anymore to get he halters on.. "       

Any new customers horses I do all behave the bascially the same way.. If you get poked in the eye everytime you see someone.. Guess what.. You won't want to see them anymore.. This type of bad behavior is gone within a few visits and not once do I yell at or correct the horse in any way..  It's amazing..  Really 100% of them..  

I've only worked on 3 real bad horses in 20+ years.. These 3 had a short circuit in the head.. All 3 of them ended up being put down.. 2 of them hurt people pretty badly.. 

All of the supposed bad horses have given me no problems from day 1.. They all stand perfect with no issues..   Never had to yell at 1 of them. And I don't believe on beating a horse.. Never have..   Back before I knew better I did reprimand a horse that had kicked 3 people just the day before I got there.. Was a 6month old filly.. I gave it a few yells and shuck the lead..  Problem solved.. 

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All easily achieved by any competent practitioner. No need to be trying to make the trade into something it's not.

Sorry, not all of us are impressed by drawing lines on a sole with a sharpie for purposes of bs'ing a gullible owner.

Mapping  While it's great for a beginner in certain environments it has to be adjusted and I found this in the wetter New England terrain and softer wetter footing..  

I also moved away from shoeing all together back in 2004 i think. I'd have to check records..   Or I should say for the most part..   There is so much more to a healthy horse than just feed it, water it and keep shoes on it..

Same with barefoot.. It's a process or a different way of keeping a horse..   It's not just a matter of going barefoot.. 

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Trimming is work of a first week apprentice and is least thing a competent shoer ought to get right.

That is scary if you meant it.. I think it might have been a typo.. 

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Talked about these guys in last post. Question is why are you no longer listed?

Turns out I am still listed..  When I do shoe horses I no longer use the EDSS mapping system and when I started with Gene's system mapping was just starting to be main stream.. ... I stopped using it years ago so no longer claim to be an EDSS trimmer or shoer.. I do refer people to the site when they ask me what I do with the note. That the website will explain better what it is I am doing but it's not the same..   
 

Your response to these posts just confirms more of what I see everyday..   You can read all about it in any of the journals on horse shoeing from back in the day. Wheelright and Blacksmith series or really any of them..   To still be having the same problems over and over and for hundreds of years.. It tells me something is wrong with what is being taught..  I don't want to be part of the problem.. I'm always in search for the cure or at least a more holistic way of treating the horses.. 

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Perhaps because the whole thing imploded and they have no active members to list anymore?

No, they are still going very strong as are most alternatives to traditional farrier schools.. and the reason why I posted the links..   Nothing has imploded..

 Despite all the traditional farriers balking at a change, there leaves a lot to be desired in traditional methods.. 

 

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This book blows all of it out of the water:

http://www.centaurforge.com/The-Mirage-of-the-Natural-Foot/productinfo/BK2090/

George

As to the book.. I'm glad you liked it..    

If you like that book (which I have not read nor will I be buying a copy).  Try Equine Podiatry..  If you like that kind of Lab text or case study then its right up your alley.. So is the stuff by Rick Redden..   

I have seen the same thing with Farriers and Veterinarians dismissing the difference between traditional trimming/shoeing techniques and a proper barefoot trim..

Really What i do is Observational trimming..  Yup.. I coined it myself..    I observe what is there and then remove what would naturally be worn, or broken off in ideal conditions.. While the shape of a naturally made hoof in nature is the best in the North east there are to many variables to getting the same results with defined sole callus.. Much more in line with what would happen in Nature but again I can't do a natural trim as again.. I am the one doing it..  Human intervention isn't really natural..   

Also I don't correct anything..  The foot as it heals does it's Own Correction and healing as the tissues get healthier and stronger..   The complexities of the horses hoof is amazingly simple.. But very dynamic.. 

Not sure you have noticed..  But "Natural Barefoot trim's"  are really a play on words..   The only "Natural trim" is one done in nature under ideal conditions on wild roaming horses.. 

There are wild heard's that don't have great feet.. They are land locked with human intervention or I should say interference.. 

 

 The argument for vs against and I can vouch it's just like myth busters..   LOL..          There is a big difference with someone who is a skilled practitioner vs someone who just does it to prove it doesn't work..   If someone tries to apply principals without understanding it's a moot point. While the results can be better than the alternative.  As an example on Myth busters they were going to use Mizogumo  to walk across water..  Any real practitioner worth a salt can tell you they are not used to walk across water.. They are used to walk across swamps.. Big difference.. 

I've looked at all the various information on more than just barefoot.. Equine podiatry, and others.. While each one propagates it's own thesis after reading all the titles I have,  I still came back to the same conclusion..  Which is proper support of the hoof wall, with proper support of the sole, and frog will offer the largest and most positive change to the hoof capsule..    This is what I am saying.. It's that simple and all I am saying.. 

Traditional farrier work is like Western medicine..  Fix it after the fact..    Barefoot trimming when applied properly is the simplest way to get to a healthier foot.. More like eastern medicine of not letting the problem happen to begin with.. 

I also think you misunderstood the reason why I posted those links..  It's to further ones education.. 

I would be happy to change what I do if something came along which I found was better..  

So far the result I get far exceed anything I have done previously and after 28 years the results are pretty impressive.. Thicker soles, thicker hoof walls (even on TB's) more hoof mass for a smaller hoof size.. Straighter hoof walls with very little flairing if any..  Heel mass is increased all on it's own while the tissues get fuller/healthier internally..  Nearly no toe distortion and well .. Just plain old Happier horses..   

I'm glad you are happy with the Farrier work you do..   For me.. I had way to many questions when I finished my apprenticeship and after doing years and years of research and testing and having excellent customers in my early days that would let me experiment on their horses only to find the results paid off.. 

Anyhow, I think we all are where we are supposed to be..  I personally will give up shoeing if I thought for a minute I was hurting a horse just for the sake of putting a shoe on.. Don't take that the wrong way.. Some horses need shoes..  Some horses feet are so bad that without shoes they are gonners.. ( was it the shoes or the horse, Egg/chicken)

Horses can and do amazing work while barefoot and with the proper conditions can develop amazingly robust feet..   

I can't speak as to any of the other people and the debunking you refer to..   Don't really care..  I can say each person who is looking for alternatives to problems that have been going on for centuries is all right in my book  and finding answers to the problems mentioned it would be a far better world for them critters which give us pleasure, work for us making work easier. 

People working together always find more answers..  

 

By the way.. I shared links that offer information..  Had nothing to do with debunking traditional farrier work..   Post up some links to farrier sites that you like and can help with more information in line with what you like. I'm always open to learn more.. 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

I'm trying to say that..  While certification sets a minimum standard it should only be a stepping stone to further understanding.  And with the same problems going on or taking place as long as there has been published Data.. Don't you think it's time that these issues are fixed instead of dealing with the problems once they exist and it's to late..

Not sure why you have so many cripples. You talk as if everything is lame. I've been shoeing a long time and haven't done any I can remember from birth to death but a few have been real close and most all the ones I've done stayed sound and healthy all their lives.

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

   I wish that were the case.. That it was only owner error that is..   I've gotten 13 new customers since the 1st of the year with lame horses all in shoes..  I've gotten 30 new customers in the last 10 years all from bad shoe jobs.. 

 Again, what exactly is their problem and what did their being shod do to cause it?

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

     If you show a hoof to 15 different farriers and ask them to trim it.. You will get 15 different results..

Wanna bet? Go to any parimutual track you care to visit. Look at them in the paddock before they run when they're all freshly done. I challenge you or anybody else to tell me who did who.

Shoeing competitions same deal. When folks set out to do them all the same they'll all be the same.

 

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

No they are not..  Laminitis is the inflammation of the laminae. Both acute and chronic.  Founder is when the tissues start to fail/shear/stretch and P3 rotates or Founders just like when a boat founders and was coined from that very thing..  While laminitus has many onsets,  Short term high dose exposure to sugars is a main culprit.. Obese horses when put into work can have a glucose reaction/release and get laminitus from such releases as the body can't process the sugars fast enough.. 

 Correct as far as acute and chronic but one thing you left out. Acute is a vet problem. Chronic is a shoer problem. Fortunately I've reached an age that I don't need to worry about doing this very much anymore as I have other better sources of income. Thus, I pretty much observe the hairline. Vets I know don't concern themselves with things below the hairline. That's mine. Anything above the hairline is theirs. They can have the whole rest of the horse. Not a bad deal huh?

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

Long term exposures to Sugars is what leads to changes in the Pituitary gland. Young horse can get Cushings . This is what cushings is all about.. Again sugar related.. from overly sugared feeds, or excessive grassy turn out.

 You'll find that certain animals will develop such maladies regardless of what you do or don't do for them. There is expensive medicine that's pretty effective in slowing it down, but eventually it will get them anyway.

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

 

 

     Cushings was relatively rare 20 years ago in my area.. As was laminitus unless the horses or ponies were exposed to sugar rich feeds or busted into the feed bin or on grass.. 

It's always been around. Was only about that long ago they came up with a name for it. Same with foundered ponies. Have been around since first 2 ponies stepped off of the ark. Old joke says there are only 2 kinds of ponies-those that have foundered and those that will.

You are correct in the increase in laminitis and founder in bigger horses though. That can be blamed on modern vaccines and dewormers.

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

YUP.. Your right it is a direct reflection upon people.. It's exactly what I said..

Then clarify, Good people. The kind that are good horsemen. The kind we all like to work for, tend to have good horses. When a bad one gets in their barn, next time you see it it's either good or it's gone. These kind of people consider it an insult to their horsemanship to have one that doesn't stand. Most of these people are unfortunately dead.

OTOH we have the others who are growing by leaps and bounds. The ones who really should give serious consideration to finding a different hobby. These people couldn't train a horse to eat carrotts. Usually all their horses are bad. If a good one has the misfortune to wind up on their farm it doesn't take them long to ruin it.

As I said, is a direct reflection upon the people.

Another big red flag for me is folks who say they can't get anybody to come out there. Every single time I've ever heard that I've always learned pretty quickly there's a real good reason nobody wants that work. Anybody who says that now I don't waste the time. Isn't worth my turning the key in the truck.

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

          

 

All of the supposed bad horses have given me no problems from day 1.. They all stand perfect with no issues..

 Well crying out loud you're only trimming most of them! How much trouble do you expect in 10 minutes of work?

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

  Never had to yell at 1 of them. And I don't believe on beating a horse.. Never have..   Back before I knew better I did reprimand a horse that had kicked 3 people just the day before I got there.. Was a 6month old filly.. I gave it a few yells and shuck the lead..  Problem solved.. 

I don't beat on them either. Is not worth the wasted effort. Kicking is a different story. You ever see a horse kick another horse? They can fire with enough force to kill a man. What does the one who gets kicked do? Just trots off and eats from a different pile. I couldn't hurt one if I tried. For that reason They will NEVER EVER get higher than me in the pecking order. They try to kick me I try to kill them. They don't try it again.

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

 

  
 

 

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Your response to these posts just confirms more of what I see everyday..   You can read all about it in any of the journals on horse shoeing from back in the day. Wheelright and Blacksmith series or really any of them..   To still be having the same problems over and over and for hundreds of years.. It tells me something is wrong with what is being taught..  I don't want to be part of the problem.. I'm always in search for the cure or at least a more holistic way of treating the horses.. 

And what do you propose to do about ignorance, owner neglect, people having horses who really can't afford them? The industry is in a shambles. If you can solve any of those issues you'll be in a league with King Solomon. Jumping into bed with the parasitic self appointed gurus who profit off of the ignorant and gullible is not the answer.

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

As to the book.. I'm glad you liked it..    

If you like that book (which I have not read nor will I be buying a copy).  Try Equine Podiatry..  If you like that kind of Lab text or case study then its right up your alley.. So is the stuff by Rick Redden.. 

Not a big Redden fan either. Early on he had some interesting ideas but over the years has gotten more and more whacko. He's another one who should stay on his side of the hairline.

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

  

I have seen the same thing with Farriers and Veterinarians dismissing the difference between traditional trimming/shoeing techniques and a proper barefoot trim..

Really What i do is Observational trimming..  Yup.. I coined it myself..    I observe what is there and then remove what would naturally be worn, or broken off in ideal conditions.. While the shape of a naturally made hoof in nature is the best in the North east there are to many variables to getting the same results with defined sole callus.. Much more in line with what would happen in Nature but again I can't do a natural trim as again.. I am the one doing it..  Human intervention isn't really natural..

Ah Hah!!! Was waiting for that one! Sole Callous, Natural BS buzzword. No such anatomical structure It doesn't exist. It's a figment of Robert Bowker's fertile imagination. Read stuff written before 1990 you'll not see any such term.

Observational is your designer term? Sounds very nice. I usually do the barn aisle trim myself although sometimes I'll switch it up and do the hitchrail trim. When I was on the track I did the box stall trim which I favored over the shedrow trim. I might even have a picture of me somewhere doing to corn crib trim. Good grief it really is getting higher and deeper around here:rolleyes:

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

  

 

Not sure you have noticed..  But "Natural Barefoot trim's"  are really a play on words.

Yeah I mentioned it already. I used the term "sophistry"

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

  The only "Natural trim" is one done in nature under ideal conditions on wild roaming horses.. 

There are wild heard's that don't have great feet.. They are land locked with human intervention or I should say interference..

And the feral hoof studies that became the foundational basis for the natural BS dogma have been proven to be flawed. They give themselves an out by saying it's ever evolving and constantly changing. If you don't like it it's because you don't understand it. If it doesn't work it's because it wasn't done properly, on and on. At my age I have a very low tolerance level for bovine excrement.

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional farrier work is like Western medicine..  Fix it after the fact..    Barefoot trimming when applied properly is the simplest way to get to a healthier foot.. More like eastern medicine of not letting the problem happen to begin with.. 

You're assuming facts not in evidence. Some horses need shoeing some don't. What gives you this crazy belief that everything is lame?

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

I also think you misunderstood the reason why I posted those links..  It's to further ones education.. 

I would be happy to change what I do if something came along which I found was better..  

So far the result I get far exceed anything I have done previously and after 28 years the results are pretty impressive.. Thicker soles, thicker hoof walls (even on TB's) more hoof mass for a smaller hoof size.. Straighter hoof walls with very little flairing if any..  Heel mass is increased all on it's own while the tissues get fuller/healthier internally..  Nearly no toe distortion and well .. Just plain old Happier horses..

Is really no good reason you shouldn't have had that anyway. If not up to a certain point...you were doing something radically wrong from the get go.

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

Anyhow, I think we all are where we are supposed to be..  I personally will give up shoeing if I thought for a minute I was hurting a horse just for the sake of putting a shoe on.. Don't take that the wrong way.. Some horses need shoes..  Some horses feet are so bad that without shoes they are gonners.. ( was it the shoes or the horse, Egg/chicken) 

Don't forget the competitive disadvantages you put them at in the various competitions they participate in. Yes they've raced ran and jumped barefoot. Do they win anything? Not really to speak of.

City carriage horses, Amish buggy horses, Drafts, Just about any animal that works for a living. Not going far without shoes.

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

 

By the way.. I shared links that offer information..  Had nothing to do with debunking traditional farrier work..   Post up some links to farrier sites that you like and can help with more information in line with what you like. I'm always open to learn more.. 

,Well, Most of the horseshoers sites these days are dead. Go on them you can hear crickets chirp. Seems everybody has abandoned forums for facebook these days.

I'm also not sure if Glenn approves of that as I know there are certain sites he doesn't want mentioned on here. I used to have mine in my signature line and it got removed with the new format. Can't get it back on.

I'll send you some on a PM

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

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7 hours ago, George Geist said:

Not sure why you have so many cripples. You talk as if everything is lame. I've been shoeing a long time and haven't done any I can remember from birth to death but a few have been real close and most all the ones I've done stayed sound and healthy all their lives.

 Again, what exactly is their problem and what did their being shod do to cause it?

Wanna bet? Go to any parimutual track you care to visit. Look at them in the paddock before they run when they're all freshly done. I challenge you or anybody else to tell me who did who.

Shoeing competitions same deal. When folks set out to do them all the same they'll all be the same.

 

 Correct as far as acute and chronic but one thing you left out. Acute is a vet problem. Chronic is a shoer problem. Fortunately I've reached an age that I don't need to worry about doing this very much anymore as I have other better sources of income. Thus, I pretty much observe the hairline. Vets I know don't concern themselves with things below the hairline. That's mine. Anything above the hairline is theirs. They can have the whole rest of the horse. Not a bad deal huh?

 You'll find that certain animals will develop such maladies regardless of what you do or don't do for them. There is expensive medicine that's pretty effective in slowing it down, but eventually it will get them anyway.

It's always been around. Was only about that long ago they came up with a name for it. Same with foundered ponies. Have been around since first 2 ponies stepped off of the ark. Old joke says there are only 2 kinds of ponies-those that have foundered and those that will.

You are correct in the increase in laminitis and founder in bigger horses though. That can be blamed on modern vaccines and dewormers.

Then clarify, Good people. The kind that are good horsemen. The kind we all like to work for, tend to have good horses. When a bad one gets in their barn, next time you see it it's either good or it's gone. These kind of people consider it an insult to their horsemanship to have one that doesn't stand. Most of these people are unfortunately dead.

OTOH we have the others who are growing by leaps and bounds. The ones who really should give serious consideration to finding a different hobby. These people couldn't train a horse to eat carrotts. Usually all their horses are bad. If a good one has the misfortune to wind up on their farm it doesn't take them long to ruin it.

As I said, is a direct reflection upon the people.

Another big red flag for me is folks who say they can't get anybody to come out there. Every single time I've ever heard that I've always learned pretty quickly there's a real good reason nobody wants that work. Anybody who says that now I don't waste the time. Isn't worth my turning the key in the truck.

 Well crying out loud you're only trimming most of them! How much trouble do you expect in 10 minutes of work?

I don't beat on them either. Is not worth the wasted effort. Kicking is a different story. You ever see a horse kick another horse? They can fire with enough force to kill a man. What does the one who gets kicked do? Just trots off and eats from a different pile. I couldn't hurt one if I tried. For that reason They will NEVER EVER get higher than me in the pecking order. They try to kick me I try to kill them. They don't try it again.

 

And what do you propose to do about ignorance, owner neglect, people having horses who really can't afford them? The industry is in a shambles. If you can solve any of those issues you'll be in a league with King Solomon. Jumping into bed with the parasitic self appointed gurus who profit off of the ignorant and gullible is not the answer.

Not a big Redden fan either. Early on he had some interesting ideas but over the years has gotten more and more whacko. He's another one who should stay on his side of the hairline.

Ah Hah!!! Was waiting for that one! Sole Callous, Natural BS buzzword. No such anatomical structure It doesn't exist. It's a figment of Robert Bowker's fertile imagination. Read stuff written before 1990 you'll not see any such term.

Observational is your designer term? Sounds very nice. I usually do the barn aisle trim myself although sometimes I'll switch it up and do the hitchrail trim. When I was on the track I did the box stall trim which I favored over the shedrow trim. I might even have a picture of me somewhere doing to corn crib trim. Good grief it really is getting higher and deeper around here:rolleyes:

Yeah I mentioned it already. I used the term "sophistry"

And the feral hoof studies that became the foundational basis for the natural BS dogma have been proven to be flawed. They give themselves an out by saying it's ever evolving and constantly changing. If you don't like it it's because you don't understand it. If it doesn't work it's because it wasn't done properly, on and on. At my age I have a very low tolerance level for bovine excrement.

You're assuming facts not in evidence. Some horses need shoeing some don't. What gives you this crazy belief that everything is lame?

Is really no good reason you shouldn't have had that anyway. If not up to a certain point...you were doing something radically wrong from the get go.

Don't forget the competitive disadvantages you put them at in the various competitions they participate in. Yes they've raced ran and jumped barefoot. Do they win anything? Not really to speak of.

City carriage horses, Amish buggy horses, Drafts, Just about any animal that works for a living. Not going far without shoes.

,Well, Most of the horseshoers sites these days are dead. Go on them you can hear crickets chirp. Seems everybody has abandoned forums for facebook these days.

I'm also not sure if Glenn approves of that as I know there are certain sites he doesn't want mentioned on here. I used to have mine in my signature line and it got removed with the new format. Can't get it back on.

I'll send you some on a PM

 

 

Over the years.. I've seen studies. I've seen what is being offered as new or cutting edge or traditional..  And while all the feet with shoes on them will look the same it doesn't mean it's the best job or to the same standard or even correct for the horse..  It simply means there is a group of people who still feel that it's the best way to get something done.. 

While I appreciate what you have written and for me it's actually been very neat as it's played out like a sounding board.. (Thanks for that).. 

I still feel as before..  And I'll wrap by saying it this way as I seem to keep saying the same thing but I am lacking the correct language to see it come through.. 

Where you are maybe every Farrier is top notch and all the feet are perfect and everything is where you think it should be.. Congrats to you..  

Ideally  it is what ever the horse needs for maximum comfort and just leave it at that..  

 

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On 5/27/2017 at 7:36 AM, Hawgdirt said:

I understand that someone with no experience should not be learning on a 100k+ horse. My point is if he had no interest in teaching me then a phone call would've been just fine. I didn't know he only shod race horses.  It's not that big of a deal I was just saying it was a little aggravating as soon as I get there he tells me he can't train me. But it's alright I'm not dependent on getting a job so it's really not an issue.

I managed to speak with a bunch of farriers at an event and watched them do demonstrations. There were several farriers there who had been to school and had been working alongside journeymen for a year or two. They were getting ready to get certified. They were still considered beginners.

If you really want to get into it, learn as much about horses as you can. I showed up with a metal working perspective and have found that is only a small percentage of farriery. In preparation for school, I've been studying anatomy and horse hoof care, and have taken basic riding/handling lessons. So far, it seems it is 95% about the horse, and only 5% about shaping steel.

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I take a middle ground as to shoeing vs bare foot, I see shoes as a therapeutic appliance. As we have bread horses for everything but good feet, most working and performance horses do benefit from proper shoeing, wile most weekend wearers benifit from proper trims and boots as needed. 

Not a fan of certification or licensing, as one association is more concerned with competitions and neither realy pays much attention to best practice. Honestly, if you tell me I have to forge and apply a heart bar on a lamitic horse I will tell you wich end of the horse to kiss, and either forge a square toe egg bar, make up a frog pad and inject silicon under it or just buy an EDS package. I will also tell you to stick your head in the slack tub if you expect me to trim the frogs and soles down. I do that only when absolutely necessary, infact I leve the frogs long if I shoe. What is taught and expected of for certification is 90% unnecessary and 50% bad practice. 

As to old blacksmithing, horseshoing and farrier manuals ( pre copyright) their is some excellent information coming from peaple who's only form of traction was animal. Some of that good advice? Don't touch the sole or frog wih a knife ( like every thing there are exceptions). There are also some excellent bio engineering and anatomical studies also came out in the last year, especially the effect on different styles and intervals of trimming and shoeing on tendon and joint stress. 

Not all what came out of bare foot trimming is bunk, but any one who wants $50 every 2 weeks is either a grass eater or a con artist. Then again anyone who insists on shoeing every horse is either ab idiot or a con. It balances out.

as to the OP, horses need trimmed or shod every 4-8 weeks ( depending on the horse, feed quality and weather) all year round. This is not a seasonal job. If you only want to work seasonally, do the festival cercut.

oh, and one more note, any one who tries to "kill" my horse, if she dosnt kill you first ( she is an App) I will apply my rounding hammer to the bald spot atop your head. I can break a horse from kicking at me with out cruelty. 

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Well I do appreciate all the responses as it helped me make a very good informed decision.  Three months of blacksmithing experience and I love it.  It truly is satisfying to forge a piece of art or a useable tool. I know nothing about horses and got interested in it because of blacksmithing.  From what I've seen and read I would be getting into it for the wrong reason and just end up frustrated and quit anyway.  So I'm just going to focus on blacksmithing and maybe set up a booth at a fair one day or an etsy shop.  Don't think I'd make a very good farrier if my sole reason for doing it is blacksmithing.  I appreciate the eye opener as it has saved me a lot of time and money. 

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2 hours ago, Hawgdirt said:

Well I do appreciate all the responses as it helped me make a very good informed decision.  Three months of blacksmithing experience and I love it. [...] Don't think I'd make a very good farrier if my sole reason for doing it is blacksmithing.  I appreciate the eye opener as it has saved me a lot of time and money. 

Always good to understand your own true desires and motivations and to act accordingly -- γνῶθι σεαυτόν!

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16 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

 

Honestly, if you tell me I have to forge and apply a heart bar on a lamitic horse I will tell you wich end of the horse to kiss, and either forge a square toe egg bar, make up a frog pad and inject silicon under it or just buy an EDS packay 

Why is that? First off what have you got against heart bars and why would you choose the method you described? Would you always do this each and every time? If so why and if not why not?

Quote

 

I will also tell you to stick your head in the slack tub if you expect me to trim the frogs and soles down. I do that only when absolutely necessary, infact I leve the frogs long if I shoe.

Again, every time? Even when they're forming a nice rock trap? How about when full of thrush? Do you ever get retained sole? If so what do you do about it?

Quote

What is taught and expected of for certification is 90% unnecessary and 50% bad practice. 

Might you be certified perchance? If not have you ever stood for a certification?

Quote

 

 I can break a horse from kicking at me with out cruelty. 

I'm sure that's the case. I'd highly doubt we'd ever find an ill broke puke in your barn.

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I mis spoke. Young Bar. Unless you come out and adjust a tung bar every week or two the hoof grows out reducing the support on the frog, EDS reduces both the stress on the flexor tendons. Reducing the odds of rotation, and the frog pad produces a more normal frog support. I use foam board and tape as first aid, and some times ply wood rockers.

as to trimming soles and frogs, read what I wrote

tho qualified to stand to be certified I do not agree with many of the methods methods deported by either of the bodies, many teckniches they insist you know and be prepared to use are either outdated or simply unreported buy classical or modern reserch. 

Lastly I deal with kickers in my practice, certainly don't at home.

i do not apretiate your greater than thou attitude and condescending attitude. Just because jlp and I disagree with you dosnt invalidate our experience or expertise. Your obvius prejudice and close mindedness gives me pause. 

 

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8 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

I mis spoke. Young Bar. Unless you come out and adjust a tung bar every week or two the hoof grows out reducing the support on the frog, EDS reduces both the stress on the flexor tendons. Reducing the odds of rotation, and the frog pad produces a more normal frog support. I use foam board and tape as first aid, and some times ply wood rockers.

Interesting. Have you had a lot of success with it?

8 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

 

 

tho qualified to stand to be certified I do not agree with many of the methods methods deported by either of the bodies, many teckniches they insist you know and be prepared to use are either outdated or simply unreported buy classical or modern reserch. 

Not sure which bodies you refer to here. AFA? BWFA? Essentially all they ask is for you to pass a pretty easy written test, make a shoe display and shoe two feet with keg shoes. Is really not that big a deal. I'd say if it were administered properly, and not run by a bunch of knuckleheads as it often is, I'd highly recommend anybody who couldn't pass that test to give serious consideration to a different career choice.

That's my opinion on it. What would you change about it to make it better?

8 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

 

Lastly I deal with kickers in my practice, certainly don't at home.

As I said before I'd highly doubt you'd have an ill broke puke on your place. Bad horses are a direct reflection upon the people. In case it went over your head that was a compliment.

 

8 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

 

i do not apretiate your greater than thou attitude and condescending attitude. Just because jlp and I disagree with you dosnt invalidate our experience or expertise. Your obvius prejudice and close mindedness gives me pause. 

 

Never said it did unless we're talking about spelling maybe? The questions I asked you were very open minded actually. Is in an attempt to learn something. I've dealt with a few founders. I've won some, I've lost some. So have you so has she. So has everybody. Hard as we may try, it will continue to be something that confounds horsemen as it has since the first two horses stepped off the ark. I've seen heart bars work and I've seen horses die graveyard dead no matter what was done. I've seen some helped by shoes, I've seen plenty helped by being left bare.

Questions I asked of you are in an attempt to spur on some critical thinking among everybody. My apologies if you think I was showing you disrespect. That was certainly not my intent.

What happens that gets folks like me started on being a pain in everybody's butt is absolutist statements. The words "always" and "never" should not be in our vocabulary when discussing the trade. When folks do make such statements they should be prepared to defend them.

George

 

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I for one.  Am not a debater.. I simply won't do it.  I share what i know and do and the results speak for themselves.  The few pictures I have posted are a true representation of 98% of the wide range of horses I do both in shape and proportions with very little distortion anywhere..

 

This is not the case with a new customers adding that 2% horse as the feet are so distorted with major imbalance. From others work or lack of work.

 in just a few trims thier feet look like all the others and its not because I file any flares to look that way.. ( I do not model or change the feet to look like an ideal example ((Picture perfect))) They change all on their own..  Heal them from the inside..if you will.

 I trim for balance only...(  they naturally evolve on there own simply from balancing the foot and weight bearing..)) and recognizing where to leave stuff and where to take it..

So while I have found what I do to be very effective, the traditional trimming models and mentality of many a Farrier is stuck in the dark ages.

After George posted his comments I did go online and started looking at what is being discussed and shown as more modern traditional farrier work and I have to confess there are some farriers out there now looking at different alternatives..  

But a lot I looked at including the barefoot trim vs the shoers trim and all the arguments came back to the same conclusion for me...

Which was /is...  traditional farriers are reluctant to see the benefit of what the more natural hoof trim mechanics offer..  until they started to see profits going down and losing customers to farriers specializing  in barefoot.

With this being said I then saw where most traditional farriers down played what the barefoot guys have been saying for years...

But adopting a more barefoot approach to show customers..

From my stand point..  the only time I remove sole or flare is when it's necessary to get to a proper supportive structure that is non invasive.

 

Depending on where you live has a huge effect on what the feet need for a trim..   So to say there is only one way is stupid.... But there are better ways.. not to acknowledge this is fool hardy..

Like I said before..  I've posted pictures of my work and can post several hundreds more that look pretty much the same from 5 states that I work in... 

I video each and every horse I do so I keep a running record from day 1..   

I used to be able to watch 2 minutes of the video and know who's feet they were because of distortion and such...

Today I have to say the customers name at the beginning of each session because all the feet look great....  not because I shaped them externally by removing flares of filing down hoof wall to achieve that look..  but because that is the shape the hooves want to be since they are balanced and getting proper sole/frog support..

Mr Stevens I am with you as to certifications.  And you taked on sole trimming etc etc..

While they do offer a set standard which is better than no standard .  I myself don't follow what those standards are because I don't believe in their methods..  Making shoes and fitting them is easy..or I should say the requirements are not difficult for a well trained shoubg farrier.  That's not the problem. 

The problem is by doing so it means you support the organisation....  

George by you posting what you did and while thinking most of it was a traditional farriers stand point. It did lead me to look around at the industry and it did give me hope for change as every where I looked people are asking the same questions I was asking 20 years ago and found most of those question could be answered barefoot...:) 

While I think and feel there can be a time and a place for shoeing i don't think it should be option #1..  

It's is truly amazing how resilient the horses feet really are.

And. Again the only real consideration is how happy and sound the horses are.. Do what you must to get them there..

By the way.. George.. no one is attacking you or what you do..  its a discussion..  

Proving or saying this person or that person is a quack means little to me as I've been called stupid and an idiot by Vets and farriers 20 years ago who now refer me all the time to horses with problems...

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11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

This is not the case with a new customers adding that 2% horse as the feet are so distorted with major imbalance. From others work or lack of work.

 in just a few trims thier feet look like all the others and its not because I file any flares to look that way.. ( I do not model or change the feet to look like an ideal example ((Picture perfect))) They change all on their own..  Heal them from the inside..if you will.

Asked before. For some inexplicable reason you never answered.......What is balance?

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 I trim for balance only...(  they naturally evolve on there own simply from balancing the foot and weight bearing..)) and recognizing where to leave stuff and where to take it..

So while I have found what I do to be very effective, the traditional trimming models and mentality of many a Farrier is stuck in the dark ages.

I kinda like how it was done during the Renaissance and Enlightenment periods. Not really sure how much it differed during the Dark Ages but I'll check on that for you:P

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

After George posted his comments I did go online and started looking at what is being discussed and shown as more modern traditional farrier work and I have to confess there are some farriers out there now looking at different alternatives..  

But a lot I looked at including the barefoot trim vs the shoers trim and all the arguments came back to the same conclusion for me...

 With the exception of radiusing the wall with a bevel just what do you find different about one trim versus another? We needn't mention Strasser butchery.

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Which was /is...  traditional farriers are reluctant to see the benefit of what the more natural hoof trim mechanics offer..  until they started to see profits going down and losing customers to farriers specializing  in barefoot.

Hmmmmm, can't help but wonder who it was that taught these super trimmers how to trim? Nah, I'll stand by what I said before. First week apprentice work.

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

With this being said I then saw where most traditional farriers down played what the barefoot guys have been saying

See above.

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

From my stand point..  the only time I remove sole or flare is when it's necessary to get to a proper supportive structure that is non invasive.

Live sole isn't wittled away at by anybody competent that I know. Why is it talked about as if it's a widespread problem? Flares if not dealt with can and will cause much more complicated issues to develop. Ever see a Heavy Horse with hooves split like three leaf clovers because of flares? I'd contend that when you see them you better get pretty aggressive about dealing with them. If horses are kept on proper schedules such issues should be minimal though.

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

Mr Stevens I am with you as to certifications.  And you taked on sole trimming etc etc..

While they do offer a set standard which is better than no standard .  I myself don't follow what those standards are because I don't believe in their methods..  Making shoes and fitting them is easy..or I should say the requirements are not difficult for a well trained shoubg farrier.  That's not the problem. 

The problem is by doing so it means you support the organisation....

Doesn't mean anything of the kind. Those excuses are pretty sorry. On this forum we have a lot of welders. Welding certs require a test. They're also tested at every job by every contractor. If they don't weld for 6 months they need to re-test. It's pretty redundant but they do it. Is there a law requiring certs to operate an arc welder? No. It's the JOB MARKET that demands it. Do they whine about it or the testing bodies? No. They just do it. Truck Drivers take a State test then are re-tested at every job. Do they whine about it? No. They just do it. Any occupation you want to name. The JOB MARKET demands it people do it.

Crying out loud this is the only occupation I can think of that the practitioners of fight to the death to keep any kind of standards from being introduced to their industry.

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

George by you posting what you did and while thinking most of it was a traditional farriers stand point. It did lead me to look around at the industry and it did give me hope for change as every where I looked people are asking the same questions I was asking 20 years ago and found most of those question could be answered barefoot...:) 

To what question is that which you refer?

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

While I think and feel there can be a time and a place for shoeing i don't think it should be option #1..

Correct answer is "it depends". Clarify what situation you're referring to.

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

 

It's is truly amazing how resilient the horses feet really are.

And. Again the only real consideration is how happy and sound the horses are.. Do what you must to get them there..

Agreed

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

By the way.. George.. no one is attacking you or what you do..  its a discussion..

Exactly, nor am I attacking anyone else. Just encouraging folks to use a cauliflower shaped object located behind their eyeballs.

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 

Proving or saying this person or that person is a quack means little to me as I've been called stupid and an idiot by Vets and farriers 20 years ago who now refer me all the time to horses with problems...

Truth be told they probably still trash you behind your back same as they always did and probably sent you stuff they didn't want 20 years ago same as today. Me too

As long as we're not running for office or asking for any of their votes we really don't need to give a fiddlers fart what anybody thinks of us do we?;)

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16 minutes ago, George Geist said:

Crying out loud this is the only occupation I can think of that the practitioners of fight to the death to keep any kind of standards from being introduced to their industry.

Don't know many fundraisers, do you?

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The problem isn't so much about having standards. I am all for insuring that we learn to trim, and when nessisary shoe horses in a manner that is healthy for horses. The issue comes when some one tries to dictate to me that I must trim or shoe in a manner I know is not the best for the horse. A lot of old wisdoms was lost, both in shoeing and training when the model T and tractor displaced the horse, we are just now rediscovering that wisdom and subjecting it to scientific study. 

As to EDS, I don't usualy buy their package, I forge shoes and make frog pads with sole leather, barge cement and cobbler tacks. Buy removing the stress from the toe, insuringthe  sole and frog are subjected to ground presher and stress is reduced (some bio enginiring papers suggest 40%) on the flexor tendons with square toes set back to the white line and egg bar heals. Raised heals only provide 5%. So yes, for most theropudic shoeing we only need one package. Now medical shoes, EDS dosnt replace as many shoes, but often the same package can be adapted. Certainly not a one size fits all, I wouldn't want to put it on a pigion toed adult horse as it would interfear with his break over, but te same basic therory of moving the break over back, and ckmbined with the eggbar heals reduce the tendon stress and a frog pad now mediates one off showings biggest flaws, the frog no longer touches the ground. 

I probably ended up projecting some of my bad experiances with horseshoers on you. Not likening how my horses wher treated got me in school for this, the local betts got me doing other peaples lame horses, but it took a long time of research and practice to unlearn the stupid, harmful things I was taught in school. 

has sertification changed that much? 15 years ago one had to have so many hours apprenticeship or training with a "certified instructor" show your shoe board and shoe a horse in under 2 hours with handmades of the type specified by the tester (even if you didn't belive that was the best for the horse) you could demand that the tester forge said shoes. Obviusly if he couldn't he wasn't qualified to inspect yours. 

Dont get me wrong, manditory licensing and certification would meen I would triple my prices, and my accountent would like that.  

 

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14 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

The problem isn't so much about having standards. I am all for insuring that we learn to trim, and when nessisary shoe horses in a manner that is healthy for horses. The issue comes when some one tries to dictate to me that I must trim or shoe in a manner I know is not the best for the horse.

Can you give any examples of any such individuals or groups who might be doing that?

14 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

 

A lot of old wisdoms was lost, both in shoeing and training when the model T and tractor displaced the horse, we are just now rediscovering that wisdom and subjecting it to scientific study. 

Very true. Is why I said there is nothing new in the trIe. Twas all known by 1900.

14 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

 

As to EDS, I don't usualy buy their package, I forge shoes and make frog pads with sole leather, barge cement and cobbler tacks. Buy removing the stress from the toe, insuringthe  sole and frog are subjected to ground presher and stress is reduced (some bio enginiring papers suggest 40%) on the flexor tendons with square toes set back to the white line and egg bar heals. Raised heals only provide 5%. So yes, for most theropudic shoeing we only need one package. Now medical shoes, EDS dosnt replace as many shoes, but often the same package can be adapted. Certainly not a one size fits all, I wouldn't want to put it on a pigion toed adult horse as it would interfear with his break over, but te same basic therory of moving the break over back, and ckmbined with the eggbar heals reduce the tendon stress and a frog pad now mediates one off showings biggest flaws, the frog no longer touches the ground. 

Ok, assuming you've had some good luck with this, do you do a resection on the toe in combination with this package? If not, what do you do about the inevitable abscesses?

14 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

 

I probably ended up projecting some of my bad experiances with horseshoers on you. Not likening how my horses wher treated got me in school for this, the local betts got me doing other peaples lame horses, but it took a long time of research and practice to unlearn the stupid, harmful things I was taught in school.

That I find easily believable. Too many of the schools merely prostitute the trade with no concern to the destruction they bring on the industry.

14 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

 

has sertification changed that much? 15 years ago one had to have so many hours apprenticeship or training with a "certified instructor" show your shoe board and shoe a horse in under 2 hours with handmades of the type specified by the tester (even if you didn't belive that was the best for the horse) you could demand that the tester forge said shoes. Obviusly if he couldn't he wasn't qualified to inspect yours. 

Not sure which certifying group you're referring to. If you're talking about AFA you're incorrect.

I think both of you would like the Unions test. Is a better way to do things.

Aside from that I think best thing about certification is legitimacy. I don't know either of you from a can of paint. If you were certified Id be sure you'd made the grade and earned your place in the trade. Without that, all I can be sure of is that you folks are some people on the internet.

14 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

Dont get me wrong, manditory licensing and certification would meen I would triple my prices, and my accountent would like that.  

 

Another good point. Certainly nothing wrong with earning a living wage.

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