33 posts in this topic

So let me make sure I understand your position. 

If I'm doing something for profit and I know people are becoming injured, that's OK, because they should have been careful.
If I'm doing something for profit and people are becoming injured and I do nothing, because my profit might be lower, that's OK, because they should have been careful.

If I'm doing something for profit and people are becoming injured and I know that they don't understand the risks and I do nothing, that's OK, because they should have been careful.

Does that sum up your position?  Because this is pretty much what the McDonald coffee case was all about.

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Actually what I worry about is not the people involved in the activity but the "innocent bystander".

I know of at least one sword failure where a blade went flying off into the watching crowd; but taken to the extreme: if you are driving down the public road and a chunk of sword flies in the window and kills your spouse, that's OK because y'all assumed the risk when you drove down a road that people may be practicing HEMA near?

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32 minutes ago, Gerald Boggs said:

So let me make sure I understand your position. 

If I'm doing something for profit and I know people are becoming injured, that's OK, because they should have been careful.
If I'm doing something for profit and people are becoming injured and I do nothing, because my profit might be lower, that's OK, because they should have been careful.

If I'm doing something for profit and people are becoming injured and I know that they don't understand the risks and I do nothing, that's OK, because they should have been careful.

Does that sum up your position?  Because this is pretty much what the McDonald coffee case was all about.

Profit is irrelevant..   It's the act or the assumption of risk..   From age 3 I used to fetch coffee for both my parents from a cook house.. The walk was varied over different types of terrain..  I quickly learned to not spill the coffee they didn't even have covers back then..  All your life from the time you were born every parent I know tells there kids to be careful and explains the whole thing when it comes to being burnt and hot etc, etc, etc..  As children grow up or age they get more and more responsibility ideally as they get smart enough to understand what they are doing..  

If a person chooses to do something and is complacent in behavior  or rushing and then ends up getting hurt, based on there own decision it's no one's fault but there own..

If it is in the middle of snow storm and it's coming down 12" per hour and you decide to get coffee at dunkin donuts and step out your vehicle  knowing the snow is on the ground and it's going to be slippery as snow is. and you slip and fall and break your arm, pelvis, etc, etc   It's no ones fault but your own.  But guess what.. You sue because there wasn't adequate snow removal..  

 Now if it's winter and there is snow on the pavement and the walk way is clear and all the snow banks are back from the tar, but the day before was unseasonably warm and everything started to melt..  At night temps drops to -20F  and there is black ice that forms in a 2ft section.. The sanding truck came thru and laid down some salt and sand as you were parked there but the ice was blocked by your tire so it never got any sand or salt on it..  You see this and still choose to walk over it anyhow and you fall down and break your shoulder or arm etc, etc..   Who's fault is it..     

People do things all the time and they choose wrongly and then try to find blame else where.. 

There are such laws on the books which really are beyond common sense..    as a rough example: In MA if you have an 8ft high fence around your property with " no trespassing" signs up every 5 ft all the way around..  A person climbs over the fence and slips and falls inside the fence line and can sue..   To me this is ridiculous.. And while  the person may not win, its still costly..  

 

Again "No common sense"..    

 

We know how the jury found and what she was awarded..   It doesn't mean it's right..  while I feel very badly she was burnt..  common sense was the only victim.. 

24 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Actually what I worry about is not the people involved in the activity but the "innocent bystander".

I know of at least one sword failure where a blade went flying off into the watching crowd; but taken to the extreme: if you are driving down the public road and a chunk of sword flies in the window and kills your spouse, that's OK because y'all assumed the risk when you drove down a road that people may be practicing HEMA near?

Thomas,   These types of things are more common than one would like to acknowledge.. 

A car on roller coaster going off the tracks is a reason...  A plain crashing is a reason..  being ran over because of faulty brakes is a reason..  climbing a new ladder and a rung coming off is a reason..        All these things where the danger is minimized or controlled but then there is a failure which should not happen.. 

The assumption of risk is such that it is safe as we believe it's safe..   

As a martial arts instructor I used to train all my students in water, heights, fire, etc.. Anyhow, before any activity that the student had never seen.. I would explain what the dangers were.. I would also tell them it's very dangerous and they could loose their lives as there was no help readily available and that they need to understand they are responsible for continuing and that they might die and this should be taken seriously and it was not a joke or to be taken lightly..  I would tell them there is no shame in not doing it and there is no ego driving here..  If they are uncomfortable today it's perfectly fine to watch and relax and we will do it again another time..     I've had students not do it and I have told them how proud I am of them and because the upper students understood they also would show how great it is not to do it..   

One of the problems with doing blacksmithing is really the forces involved..  Most of it while we want to believe are controlled, there is so much going on for a given operation it can't be all controlled..  

Demo's are one of those places that what will go wrong usually will..   I used to do 5-8 demos a year some of them multi days..  I have had 2 incidents in 38+ years.. Once I was cutting a nail and it flew off into the crowd.. Stuck a kid in the leg and the nail blank fell out.. The kid went and grabbed it which was still hot and burned his fingers..  The wound was cortirized immediately and the burned fingers well they healed..  Luckily I knew both the Kid and his father and there was nothing ever said other than "I'm sorry it happened, is there anything I can do.." 

Second time was with my best friend at a demo and I was welding.. A speck of flux came off and got him right in the eye..  And eye wash later and he was fine.. 

Last year at a demo the guy demonstrating next to me and a smith for over 45 years and works at a living museum was doing some welding and the guy 10ft away took a piece of flux in the eye and I could see it burn in from 20ft away.. I knew exactly what had happened but the guy it happned to had no idea... 

As to driving down the road... 

Many years ago.. I was driving down a major 2 lane road and all of a sudden I had hit a flock of partridge.. I had 4 inside the car, one in the windshield and one siitting in my lap.. I nearly crashed as the one that hit me was like a cannon. or at least I can believe it was.. Yes, I have never been shot by a cannon ball.. I can only assume what it's like and it was like being hit by that partridge at 55 miles and hour..

What then..   Who fixes it? Who do I sue..   again i didn't know it was about to happen, there was no previous knowledge that it could be dangerous.. I'd driven that road 1000's of times before.. 

If someone knows something is inherently dangerous and does it...      How many of you guys have been burnt by hot coffee? Or hot food.. 

again, we all ready know which way the judgement went..  Pee on an electric fence,,    Drink and drive,  Smoke cigarettes,  work hot metal,   Electric arc weld.  Lick paint brushes with trillium or is it tritium on them..  

Knowing what the dangers are and then doing something is an Assumption of risk.. Driving a car is an assumption of risk..  

Nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day. An additional 20-50 million are injured or disabled. More than half of all road traffic deaths occur among young adults ages 15-44.

 

In 2014, 9,967 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (31%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States. Of the 1,070 traffic deaths among children ages 0 to 14 years in 2014, 209 (19%) involved an alcohol-impaired driver.Jan 26, 2017

 

 Anyhow,   Common sense is lacking..   There are times when if it's not your fault and it happened to you anyhow there should be compensation.. But to know or to claim you didn't know it was dangerous after being educated as a child..  then sue your parents because they were terrible.. 

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  • How many deaths by cigarettes:
    Dr. Michael Roizen, MD , Internal Medicine, answered
    There are 440,000 in the United States and four million worldwide yearly. It is the leading cause of death in the world higher thanMore

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Question: why do you write so much and yet not talk about the subject at hand.  It's like you have a point, but it doesn't apply to the subject.  Maybe you never actually read the case, because little of what you wrote is relevant to the case.  McDonalds loves you.

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I admit, I feel strongly about this case, because I remember it and I remember the PR campaign McDonald's waged against this lady.  I remember a bill board ad attacking the lawsuit as frivolous.  I mean REALLY, you spill some coffee on you and now you're suing?, I made jokes about this.  McDonald's easily convinced me that this was an case of frivolous lawsuit.  Why?, because of two things:  McDonald's made sure (having the money to control the information) that I never learned the extent of her injuries.  And never in my imagination, did I think a company would sell me coffee from a drive-thru window so hot, that if spilled, could and in this case did, cause third degree burns and McDonald's knew I didn't know that.  



 

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I get it.. really I do..

Corporation get away with a lot more than people realize.. Just look at all the areas completely poisoned by GE, or Monsanto.  Etc etc.  

The merits as to what took place and how or why are what I'm taking about..  instead of passing the buck and not accepting responsibility for our own actions just transfers over to larger laws, more government regulations or deregulation depending on who it benefits...and the costs are just passed onto consumers... the corps never even feel it..

The topic at hand is "how does someone get into making and distributing "  reenactment pieces without getting ones life sued from underneath ones self..

Small business.. working for your self is always a gamble. Any given day of the week can be my last day..  

As to swords or other weapons breaking in use.  It's been happening for thousands of years..

There are no guarantees..  Just best guesses so having a willingness to dot all the I and Tees. Carry plenty of insurance with the hopes of never being sued and keep plenty of money in an shoebox for the what if...

Keep all the documentation on heat treats, metal batches (so you can sue the metal company if you get sued)  and follow all information to the letter..

Any variation of listed heat treating recommendations if done more than once can be seen as negligence.. or a pattern and can be argued in court.

Sadly, it's easy enough to make anybody look like a bad guy... some one comes for a visit and trips over a single stone on the walk way which is a perfect otherwise...

Given enough assets anybody is fair game..

Crazy....

 

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19 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

I was taught from a very early age..  be very careful when holding anything hot...  when running a bath or shower to test the hot water with a finger quickly ran under the facet vs a whole hand stuck in it..

JLP, I have read every word in this thread, and re-read quite a bit of it.

On 06/11/2017 at 9:31 AM, Gerald Boggs said:

That's really not fair to her,

I have quoted two exceptionally intelligent members here at the risk of liability for my own humiliation, but here it is.

JLP, my older brother is a genius of extraterrestrial proportions - you remind me of him in some ways. 

One of his difficulties is that everything is easy for him. He gets flustered with the PHD's he works with, and is vexed by the "lack of native intelligence" (common sense) demonstrated by his BS and MS-degreed subordinates.

I acknowledge that you understand that it's OK that some of your students were not equipped to advance to the more hazardous levels of combat.......

I submit that the vast majority of people do not attain to your lower threshold for common sense.

I, too, am a passionate advocate for personal accountability.

I will rely here upon Mr Boggs assertion that the Defendant knew that it had inadequate safeguards in its distribution to the public of an inherently hazardous product.

I uncomfortably support this position.

I flout local ordinances when I install my own water heater - the median public intelligence does not comprehend that a water temperature above 120F presents a scalding hazard.

I despise the fact that it is unlawful for me to install my own light fixture, let alone a sub-panel, and yet I have a in-law who fancies himself an electrician, because a "real" electrician told him, "You don't need no meter, alls you got to do is lick your fingers"

Then there are the perfectly average normal people who want help reversing rotation on their motors, whilst having not an inkling about the house-burning, People-killing latent potential lurking in every household outlet.

While I find this litigious paradigm nauseating, but similarly, (sic)  trade unions were or may be a noble concept.

Darwin is indeed delighted at this age of technology in which we now dwell.

Respectfully,

Robert Taylor

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