33 posts in this topic

I was wondering if anyone has any experience making the fighting weapons for European/western martial arts groups?

I was approached by a group recently about the possibility of making some of the swords and pole arms for them. If you have made those types of weapons, is there anything that I should be aware of, such as a particular metal to use, average price for the weapons, specific thickness that the blades have to be? I will be hand forging them and want to avoid welding so as to keep the polearms more authentic.

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Don't forget the US$1000000 in liability insurance (I'm not joking, you should have at least a million in insurance!)  They should specify allowed alloys and designs, weights, edge thicknesses etc.

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Have you made any blades before? Are you comfortable assuming the liability of what might happen should one of your blades break during a sparring session?

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I have made a few blades before and have done some abusive testing on them. You both make a good point though about the liability as that is something that I have not considered. 

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You might want to spend a couple hundred bucks and talk to a lawyer about your legal exposure being the maker of such things. Remember what happened to McDonalds when a customer didn't have the sense to NOT put a cup of HOT coffee between her legs while driving a manual transmission car? 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Dear Frosty,

Please give some more details on this, it sounds so amazingly irrational. I'll be happy to have enough for a google search :)

Bests and thanks:

Gergely

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3 minutes ago, Frosty said:

You might want to spend a couple hundred bucks and talk to a lawyer about your legal exposure being the maker of such things.

I had assumed that is something I should do anyway before selling any of my knives. 

 

As as far as the breaking factor goes, since these weapons are going to be used more for blugening rather than cutting, should I do the heat treat at a lower temperature so that it would be more likely to bend rather than break?

1 minute ago, Gergely said:

Dear Frosty,

Please give some more details on this, it sounds so amazingly irrational. I'll be happy to have enough for a google search :)

Bests and thanks:

Gergely

Search "mcDonalds hot coffee lawsuit." Adam Ruins Everything covers the story best in my opinion. He at least covers both sides of the story accurately.

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mcdonald's coffee lawsuit

Bend is MUCH better than break! Pieces flying off into the crowd is a lawyers dream come true here in the USA

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Thanks guys! It looks like this was an important case... very sad though.  

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The ladies first name was Stella, I don't recall her family name.. That should help with your search.

You are only presenting one side of the story. I do not know the specific details but I do know that that coffee was found to be boiling hot.

The injured plaintiff underwent seven serious operations to reconstruct potions of her body.

She was subjected to derision and opprobrium in the press, and her lawyers were accused of bringing a spurious lawsuit.

It was nothing of the sort.

The damages were very real and McDonalds was found to be grossly negligent.

I should check the veracity of her bracing the coffee between her legs.

McDonalds changed their hot drinks practices drastically after that lawsuit.

SLAG.

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Before this lawsuit McDonalds discovered that if they kept there coffee extremely hot it still tasted fresh much longer so they did not have to throw away as much coffee. 

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Also word of warning about various groups, one 'live steel group' is legal quicksand, as a group they have the largest set of rules I ever seen for any time or place, and my experience is  that they sue anyone to make a gain. Example I asked if a person that was proposed to be given a high office rank was qualified, since they never held any other office before in return I was charged with treason, no joke .... they said that as an officer I was expected to support the other officers and not rock the boat..... My faction of 30 plus members left and stopped playing with them over this insanity,  beware the mother of the kid on the side line that gets hurt by a blade not used safely by another but you will get the blame by her lawyer for the  "home made blade" also last I checked one of the high officers is a lawyer,  they will protect themselves above all.

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the insanity of it all is beyond me..   The whole thing today about not accepting the responsiblity for ones own actions doesn't make any sense at all.. 

I was taught..  If you do this.. This will happen.. and then I was told if you want to use this or do that, if something does happen then there is no one to blame but yourself.. 

Of course at 8 years old i was forging on my own with no PPG.. and hunting and fishing and mini bike driving and riding in the back of pickup trucks oh and did I mention driving full sized tractors because I worked at a farm and got paid 10$ a week.. I loved it..   

Hello if its hot and you touch it you will get burnt..  LOL..      

I used to teach martial arts (Ninjutsu) and I made eveybody sign waivers and it wasn't till they were in the middle circle that they would get to handle live weapons. But at that point it was well established what the rules were.. 

Never had one student with more than a sliver.. 

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As someone who practices HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) or WMA (Western Martial Arts) most clubs / groups won't allow bluntnpractice swords from anyone who can't show a long series of strenuous tests on multiple weapons. There is a blacksmith in a town not too far away who wanted to sell custom practice weapons to several of the groups in several Canadian cities, and we all provided him with a list of requirements and a need for evidence of the requirements being met,l. He spent a year and a half making about 100 different practice weapons before he provided us the final products for our testing and inspection, we then sent them back with a list of changes that needed to be made so he made 20 more with said changes and send them to us and that resulted in his gen. 1 practice messers and feders. In total he spent over $10000 developing the weapons and the tools he needed to make them properly. He was also advised to increase his insurance coverage to $5000000.

 

The blunt practice weapons we use need to be very flexible with out taking a set, and need to be very tough because there is constant steel on steel contact. One of the best manufacturers, in my opinion, is http://regenyei.com/. Check out their products if you want to know more about what is required by hema practitioners.

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On 5/1/2017 at 10:31 PM, Frosty said:

You might want to spend a couple hundred bucks and talk to a lawyer about your legal exposure being the maker of such things. Remember what happened to McDonalds when a customer didn't have the sense to NOT put a cup of HOT coffee between her legs while driving a manual transmission car? 

Frosty The Lucky.

Frosty, you might want to read up on that case, because everything you think you know about the case is because of one of the most effective PR campaigns by McDonalds.   In short, some of the details:  She wasn't driving, she was a passenger, they got the coffee and went to park the car.  The coffee was so hot, she received third degree burns on her legs and crotch.  McDonalds already know there was a problem, as they had already had 100's of cases about burns from their coffee and defective lids, one of which had been settled for $500,000 (I think I'm correct on the amount)    What got McDonalds in the end, was their own reports: they knew that sometimes the coffee was so hot as to be dangerous, but decided occasional burning people was worth the risk, because folks like hot coffee.

Make sure to see the photos of her burns,

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

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Granted my memory is too bad anymore to make statements that positively. I apologize and yes, McDonalds  coffee was dangerously hot, that was why most of us bought their coffee it wasn't because it was good. 

I cede the bad example. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

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It wasn't your memory, I thought the same thing until I saw "Hot Coffee" and took to the internet to read more.  The PR campaign by McDonald's was incredible effective, that's why it was the focus of the documentary of how we're being manipulated, controlled and lied to by big business.

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10 hours ago, VainEnd84 said:

As someone who practices HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) or WMA (Western Martial Arts) most clubs / groups won't allow bluntnpractice swords from anyone who can't show a long series of strenuous tests on multiple weapons. There is a blacksmith in a town not too far away who wanted to sell custom practice weapons to several of the groups in several Canadian cities, and we all provided him with a list of requirements and a need for evidence of the requirements being met,l.

Thank you very much for this information vainend, it confirms a lot about what I was feeling in regards to getting in to that particular market. I am sure it may have turned out to be lucrative for that blacksmith, but I think for myself who does not quite have a full year of blacksmithing under my belt, it will be best to leave it for when I am far more experience and in a position to take that risk. 

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Glad I could provide some info, and it has become somewhat lucrative for him, but he had nearly 20 years experience in making blades before he tried making practice weapons

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1 hour ago, Gerald Boggs said:

It wasn't your memory, I thought the same thing until I saw "Hot Coffee" and took to the internet to read more.  The PR campaign by McDonald's was incredible effective, that's why it was the focus of the documentary of how we're being manipulated, controlled and lied to by big business.

As opposed to being manipulated and lied to by the media and lawyers going after the deep pockets? We live in a litigious society where folks are conned into suing Big business every other commercial, everybody wants a cut of what you have. "Dewy Cheatem and Howe" has been a (not so much) joke since vaudeville or earlier. 

The open dishonesty of the News, politics, legal system, etc. is getting so blatant nothing surprises me anymore except maybe the number of people who fall for it. 

So, no I don't doubt McDonalds did their best to beat the case honest or not. Nor do I doubt her "legal" team bent everything they could get away with to maximize their cut. The injured party's % was significantly lower than her lawyers. 30% maybe? And McDonalds' lawyers made millions. Prices under the golden arches went up a few cents BEFORE the settlement and never went back down. Who won?, Not the public and the coffee isn't as hot anymore, no reason to make a special stop.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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42 minutes ago, Frosty said:

 the coffee isn't as hot anymore, no reason to make a special stop.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

It wasn't worth drinking before the lawsuit; it isn't worth drinking after.

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35 minutes ago, Frosty said:

So, no I don't doubt McDonalds did their best to beat the case honest or not. Nor do I doubt her "legal" team bent everything they could get away with to maximize their cut. The injured party's % was significantly lower than her lawyers. 30% maybe? And McDonalds' lawyers made millions. Prices under the golden arches went up a few cents BEFORE the settlement and never went back down. Who won?, Not the public and the coffee isn't as hot anymore, no reason to make a special stop.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

That's really not fair to her, look at the photos of her groin and remember, McDonalds knew that their coffee was this hot and just accepted the burning of customers as part of business as usual.  Then put those burns on a loved one and think how you would feel if you found out that McDonalds knew it could happen.

And she didn't start out with a big law suit, she just wanted McDonalds to help with the medical bills.

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Bottom line is no one accepts responsibility for themselves..

Coffee has always been a hit beverage and some like their coffee hooter than others.

I am a blacksmith do I sue the metal maker because I get burns from scale coming off..

Do I sue a horse owner because I get bit or kicked by a horse..

There are many scoundrels out there looking for a quick buck and really all it dies is keep people from being able to branch out with the fear of being sued at any given time..

The thought of being involved in any combat type fun sport and the possibility of being sued to me is beyond stupid.. as its based on combat..  

In 25yesrs of teaching high level eastern martial arts  I have only had 1 student get hurt 2x..  once was with a partial dislocation of his elbow and the other was he got stabbed with a stick about 1/8" deep..  

 

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Did you read the information about this incident and look at the photos of third degree burns on her groin and upper thighs?  

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I was taught from a very early age..  be very careful when holding anything hot...  when running a bath or shower to test the hot water with a finger quickly ran under the facet vs a whole hand stuck in it..

How many guys work out in the cold put as hot a water or coffee into their thermos as they can.. stays warmer longer..

I would never, ever put something that is hot in between my thighs if there is ever a chance of getting burned...    the skin and other tissues in the area burn super easy...  

It's like I posted in another thread about using the back of the hand to check for warm steel..

Ain't no way...

People needs to start using their brains..

While I feel badly she got burnt and or disfigured.  Common sense dictates..

Where did all the common sense go?

We all make stupid or lazy or plain old idiotic decisions everyday.... we just get lucky enough to not get bit..  I do dangerous things all the time at least 30 or 40 times a day, It's part of the job....   But I am also making the decision and accepting the responsibility. 

I eat oatmeal every morning.  And it's hotter than the sun..  I eat it on my lap watching TV and over the years I figured out pretty quickly its hot..  so I put a magazine on my lap so my legs don't get burned....  But,  if I spill it and get burnt , who's at fault..  the oatmeal maker..  it says to add to boiling water.... lol...

complacency is the number 1 injury factor..

Yet we all do it....  

 

Assumption of risk is a defense in the law of torts, which bars or reduces a plaintiff's right to recovery against a negligent tortfeasor if the defendant can demonstrate that the plaintiff voluntarily and knowingly assumed the risks at issue inherent to the dangerous activity in which he was participating at the time ...

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