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7 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Don't disregard any potential tool, technique or thought..  It's all about learning a craft or trade..  When I was very young I was pretty cocky because I was in great shape and forging 12 hrs a day for years.. I passed up on a lot of opportunities to learn because what I was doing worked perfectly.. 

Wise words.

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7 hours ago, Jasent said:

Looks like he Wields it just fine. Dosent even sound winded. 

Thank you sir. I have been blacksmithing for about 2.5 years. Of those 2.5 years, almost all of those weekends were taken up with the craft. Saturdays range from 8-13 hour days, and Sundays are about 6 hour days. I use that hammer all day, and don't seem to have a problem doing so.

3 hours ago, Frosty said:

Don't you fish mouth the end of your tapers by starting back from the end? You're using a fuller in both examples, the radiused edge of your anvil IS a fuller used like that.

It's not the tool you just need practice and a proper set up for the bottom tool. Put it in your anvil the "striking" anvil is too low for you to use without strikers. 

It's just a matter of the correct set up and practice. Have you watched and practiced Brian Brazeal's method of drawing tapers? He uses a radiused edge and moves metal like a machine. Well worth a try.

I give you high marks for video production values. Excellent lighting you can see everything clearly. Also excellent audio levels you can hear everything well without being deafened. 

It's a good job all round, the video just doesn't make the point you think it does. ;)

Frosty The Lucky.

I don't have any issue with fish mouthing. Cut the end with a hot cut for larger steel or grind a radius so that doesn't happen. Starting from the end of the bar and working back just sounds way awkward when making a forwards taper. when making a reverse taper or a bar using the near edge you work from the end back.

yes I understand that the edge works the same as a fuller, or maybe a fuller works the same as the edge....

sure, you could get efficient using a bottom fuller to draw out tapers. I already though found a way, the edge, and so that's what I use. I don't typically use my striking anvil like that. Its just that, that is the only anvil I have a bottom fuller for and could use to demonstrate.

I was using the same technique that Brian uses, or at least for what I can see. yes, I have practiced it, it is what I use to forge every taper. Like I have said in some other posts, I stand firm behind his methods.

Thank you! I didn't do anything different, other than talk a little louder, glad you enjoyed it!

yeah, don't really know what my point was. I guess all I showed was that I don't like using the bottom fuller, and for me it just doesn't work well with the limited practice I have done with it.

3 hours ago, Tubalcain2 said:

hey, LB. on a totally different note, your voice sounds almost exactly like mine, only higher. don't think i've heard a voice so similar before. must be the shared german.:P

Thank you I think, that's kinda cool, no ones ever told me that!

2 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

The argument as to which works better depends on what is being done..   I use and promote using the horn for drawing out all the time.. While the shape of most horns are not conducive to drawing out with such a sharp angle as the corner of an anvil face. This whole wives tale of metal twisting and having to be corrected is from lack of experience.. 

As with any tool there is a knack and practice to make it work properly..  I've used fullers for drawing out, rounding hammers, straight peens, large hammers, small hammers, etc, etc..  It really is like all tools.. A skilled person can make something seem easy.. It all comes down to experience and perfecting what skill set you have.. 

Personally i'd rather weld on reins to tongs.. I'd rather not spend my time drawing out reins or really thick materials by hand.. While Brian's method does work it's simply another tool in the arsenal to becoming a more effective and efficient forger which all tools offer when used properly.. 

Using the edge or corner of the anvil as fuller is not new..  How do I say it without soundling like a total you know..  There really is nothing new in forging.. In several thousand years there has been more forgotten than remembered most things are a rediscovery.. 

Surface area, is surface area..  For a given contact area the less material in touch with something is going to make the deepest impression with the same amount of force applied..  That's why we have power hammers in different sizes and hydraulic presses in 1000's of tons and why there are so many different methods to get the same job done.. 

Hay Budden anvils over 150lbs had slightly rounded faces from edge to edge.. 

anyhow. to disregard any potential use of a tool is a young or old persons folly..    The idea of minimizing the contact area in forging is not a new idea.. It's simple propagated in a much larger audience now with the internet and Brian Brazeal has perfected his method which is outstanding to watch..  

 

Don't disregard any potential tool, technique or thought..  It's all about learning a craft or trade..  When I was very young I was pretty cocky because I was in great shape and forging 12 hrs a day for years.. I passed up on a lot of opportunities to learn because what I was doing worked perfectly.. 

 

As for moving steel to far to fast.. Wives tail..  It just needs to be worked properly..  If forged properly you won't get shearing or un even working of the steels surfaces to the core.   In rolling mills the steel starts moving at 1" a minute.. At the other end it's move 1000" a minute.. being reduced all the time.. 

If the steel is being moved fast enough through its full thickness there is enough friction to keep it moving and generating heat all the way to the core then there is no boundary layers being separated..  Just like forging any small diameter it will forge fine if you can catch the temp before it drops off past the transition temperature.. 

Right, I said that there are things that can be done to prevent the twisting, but I can do the same thing that is done on the horn using the edge at a lower ange, and also end with a cleaner finish. With the horn, if you are wanting to move more metal you have to go towards the tip, where there is less mass supporting it, where as with the anvil you just increase your angle, much easier to teach and to use in my opinion.

i find that I really enjoy drawing out, and that really the amount of time it takes me to upset a bar, and weld it, that there isn't too much of a difference that I find it worth it to me, but really that's just because I enjoy drawing out larger stock, something soothing about it. 

I know it is not new. please, If I said that I thought it was, show me were and call me out so that I can correct it.

I know that surface area is not new, or else physics would be new. Now how it is applied is something different. while its not knew, I think Brian should at least get credit for furthering the technique and creating a better understanding while making it known to many.

Moving too far too fast- I don't meant than it will screw up the steel if you forge it too quickly. I mean that it is difficult to put metal back where it was in some cases. It is easier to make a taper thinner than to make it thicker. So, holding a really aggressive angle will move metal quicker and you may not realize that you moved more metal than you were wanting to and made it too thin. Or when using a bottom fuller, the only way to have more surface contact is to use a bottom fuller. The time it takes to find a larger fuller, remove the smaller one and place the larger one in the anvil is time and heat lost, one of which you cant get back and the other of which cost you $$, it all adds up. In the video when I get closer to the tip while using the edge it lights up, and in another video I posted a while back it lit up, I am familiar with it, and use that to my advantage quite often.

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 8:50 PM, littleblacksmith said:

also, may I ask if you have a power hammer, press, ect?

 

Ok, what I don't understand, is why use a bottom fuller when doing something liked drawing out a taper in the video??? I still don't see why it is any better.

                                                                                                                            Littleblacksmith

 

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1 hour ago, littleblacksmith said:

Right, I said that there are things that can be done to prevent the twisting,

On 5/3/2017 at 9:50 PM, littleblacksmith said:

also, may I ask if you have a power hammer, press, ect?

 

Ok, what I don't understand, is why use a bottom fuller when doing something liked drawing out a taper in the video??? I still don't see why it is any better.

                                                                                                                            Littleblacksmith

This propagation that using the horn is twisting the metal is off the wall.. The twisting is because of un even hammer hits not because of something that needs to be fixed.. It's user error.. Not because a fault with the anvil or horn..  (A great well skilled blacksmith can make greatness on crappy tools) The tools are not the limiting factor..   As pointed out earlier don't limit yourself..  I find that people don't ever master horn drawing techniques..  It a worthy skill.. 

I'm all done as I sound like I'm harping about it..  I teach people multiple ways of doing things.. it will open doors or ideas when things seem bleak.. 

Yes, or I should say I have had a 200lbs Myers in the past and once shop is up will come back home..   As the stock gets bigger you need to swing a bigger hammer no matter how small the contact area.. 

I would imagine as you have gone on your journey you have found that with experience comes greater speed..     Forge welding creates short cuts in so many ways that no matter how you draw it out you can never achieve the same product.. 

I guess it was different for me in my early years as I was making a living at making custom hardware and the faster I made items the more money I made.. Each item was a custom item  as there was no stock list ( Every customer was purchasing custom hardware)   I would tell people go to " Early American Wrought iron" Figure out what they wanted and then let me know..  Working this way you figure out as many short cuts to efficiency as one can this involves every aspect of every corner, of the anvil including the feet.. 

And I do get there is a certain zen like state about drawing out bars.. I remember those days oh so long ago..  

 

 Keep up the good work.. I look forwards to seeing more of your items.. 

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Brian Brazeal draws tapers, long and short, starting at the end and and drawing back it's one reason he has the reputation of being so effective with a hammer. That's not the only technique for which he's earned the title but it's the one that applies to tapers.

Points about starting at the end of the bar: 1, It won't fish mouth because you drive the corners straight into the center till there are no corners. 2, after drawing the very end to the finished thickness you lay the bar a LITTLE flatter so it's resting on the "transitional" corner, between the taper and stock bar. Greatly reducing the sq/in concentrating the psi. exactly where it does the most good. draw the corner to match the current taper WITHOUT moving the blows farther up the bar! Lay it back on the next transitional corner and repeat. Blending the next taper into the last.

3, Just before reaching the final length plannish smooth extending the taper full length. 

4, There's no fish mouth to trim nor is the taper too long because you stop when it's done.

I don't describe it as well as Brian does but I learned the technique at the clinic he held here a couple summers ago.

It's just another technique among many, I use my horn as a fuller more than anything else though I have fullers, top bottom and spring die. I was told by the instructor a couple clinics ago I need to radius my edges more. I may have to pay attention and do some grinding. In his opinion Soderfors anvils are the best, he REALLY knows his stuff. :)

Everybody has a favorite technique, tool, shade of color, etc. It's a mistake to ever think you actually know the best. . . Anything. Never stop looking for better, skills especially knowledge is the ONLY thing that can never be taken from you. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

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13 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

As for moving steel to far to fast.. Wives tail..  It just needs to be worked properly..

 

I thought that referred to the risk of getting the stock too thin by sheer enthusiasm. But I do agree with you. Learn as many ways as possible and laarn about their disadvantages as well as advantages.

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10 hours ago, littleblacksmith said:

 The time it takes to find a larger fuller, remove the smaller one and place the larger one in the anvil is time and heat lost,

Ok, what I don't understand, is why use a bottom fuller when doing something liked drawing out a taper in the video??? I still don't see why it is any better.

        

 

I switch hardy tools when the stock is in the fire so I loose no time at all. I further make all hardy tools in such a way that they are a thight but loose fit in the hole and that the force is transmitted to the face of the anvil. I can remove all of them by lifting between thumb and fore finger but they do not move sideways more than a tenth of a millimeter or so.

I do not think that anybody has said that a bottom fuller is better. It is said - and very true in my view - that skill is more important than the tool but a bottom fuller is one of the tools that CAN be used.  

On 2017-05-05 at 4:47 AM, littleblacksmith said:

 I mean, with the flat side, it wont stay perfectly straight, and you will have to straighten it anyways.

Yes it does but this may depend upon who holds the hammer. But you are right, it is necessary to correct  but this is more because even over the edge, there is a certain amount of unwanted sideways squeeze.

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10 hours ago, JHCC said:

Just another person who's never tried a Mousehole....

Sadly I have never tried a Mousehole either.. Trenton(german), PW, HW, Columbian, Vulcan, Eagle, Mankel, Delta Future, NC,  My favoritevintage because of how they are made is still HB..   

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41 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Sadly I have never tried a Mousehole either.. Trenton(german), PW, HW, Columbian, Vulcan, Eagle, Mankel, Delta Future, NC,  My favoritevintage because of how they are made is still HB..   

 Not to worry. Frosty and I are always teasing each other about our respective preferences for Soderfors and Mousehole. 

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I feel like I should apologize, I may have rubbed some of ya'll the wrong way. Sorry for my false sense of confidence in thinking that I knew what was best, when what I should have been saying what works best for ME, and for in jlpservicesinc words, being cocky.

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 7:04 PM, jlpservicesinc said:

Keep up the good work.. I look forwards to seeing more of your items.. 

Thank you very much!

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 7:25 PM, Frosty said:

Brian Brazeal draws tapers, long and short, starting at the end and and drawing back it's one reason he has the reputation of being so effective with a hammer. That's not the only technique for which he's earned the title but it's the one that applies to tapers.

ok, I think now I know what you are talking about. you are saying, forge a short taper on the end of the bar, not on the edge, and then coming back and extending the taper using the edge of the anvil. That would make much more sense, as I thought you were saying about forging from the tip back using the edge of the anvil! haha!

15 hours ago, gote said:

I thought that referred to the risk of getting the stock too thin by sheer enthusiasm. But I do agree with you. Learn as many ways as possible and laarn about their disadvantages as well as advantages.

yes that was what I was reffering to, thank you for putting it in much simper words.

15 hours ago, gote said:

I switch hardy tools when the stock is in the fire so I loose no time at all. I further make all hardy tools in such a way that they are a thight but loose fit in the hole and that the force is transmitted to the face of the anvil. I can remove all of them by lifting between thumb and fore finger but they do not move sideways more than a tenth of a millimeter or so.

Right, but when forging that taper in the video, when I started out and didn't need to move much metal because it was the base of the taper it would have been helpful to switch to a larger bottom fuller during the heat, but with the anvil you could have just lowered your angle.

15 hours ago, gote said:

I do not think that anybody has said that a bottom fuller is better. It is said - and very true in my view - that skill is more important than the tool but a bottom fuller is one of the tools that CAN be used.  

right, without skills tools mean nothing.

what I forged out of those tapers I made in the video.

                                                                                                                  Littleblacksmith

 

IMG_6251[1].JPG

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these are very good looking whatever they are. May I suggest that you do something about the fixing. If home maid nails are out you can always get a screw with a hexagon head and bash it up so it gets in style with the rest.

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10 hours ago, littleblacksmith said:

right, without skills tools mean nothing.

what I forged out of those tapers I made in the video.

By the way I love seeing you at the anvil in the video..  All the new young blood coming to blacksmithing and having a skill set to boot..  Puts a big smile on my face.. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Nice work but not quite sure what they are for?  If they are to hold doors closed  only having one hole will become a problem as the pin will want to twist.. 

well, they are actually more for holding the doors open, I'll be making a latch later to keep the doors closed. open the doors, and that drops into a piece of tubing because I didn't make them long enough to go into the ground. Not the first time, and hopefully not the last, but I'm not sure what you mean by the last part?

                                                                                                                        

6 hours ago, gote said:

these are very good looking whatever they are. May I suggest that you do something about the fixing. If home maid nails are out you can always get a screw with a hexagon head and bash it up so it gets in style with the rest.

will do. I didn't even think about that even though I have a pile of them from warm ups every day!

51 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

By the way I love seeing you at the anvil in the video..  All the new young blood coming to blacksmithing and having a skill set to boot..  Puts a big smile on my face.. 

 

 

Thank you very much,  it means a lot coming from someone with more skill than me! I'll try and put out more videos!

                                                                                                                                   Littleblacksmith                                                                                                                              

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24 minutes ago, littleblacksmith said:

Thank you very much,  it means a lot coming from someone with more skill than me! I'll try and put out more videos!

                                                                                                                                   Littleblacksmith                                                                                                                              

If you use nails be sure to clinch them on the other side of the door.. drill hole undersized.. Make the nails 1/4" longer then all stacked up materials combined.. 

 

Make sure the nails are soft..  Here is a simple sketch of the better way to do it  or make 2 brackets like you made and make sure the locking rods are long enough.  

20170507_084722.jpg

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Greetings Littleblacksmith, 

         You are a very skilled young smith and I think the reason some of the older smiths offer you comments is that we see your potential. Just my 2c..   I do not see why the speed of drawing out a bar is so important. I encourage my students to work slower and more detailed first. Looking at your finished parts you started with square bar and the scroll portion on one stayed square and the other transistioned into round. What's the rush? Quality first quantity last.. I only wish you lived closer to spend some time in my shop. I'm sure I would learn a thing or two from you. Keep up the great work . 

Forge on and make beautiful things 

Jim

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11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Nice work but not quite sure what they are for?  If they are to hold doors closed  only having one hole will become a problem as the pin will want to twist.. 

22 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 Here is a simple sketch of the better way to do it  or make 2 brackets like you made and make sure the locking rods are long enough.  

 

I understood that the tubing in the ground was what kept the pins vertical/rigid. So the single loop was all that was required. Interesting reversal of the normal arrangement.

Alan

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1 hour ago, Alan Evans said:

I understood that the tubing in the ground was what kept the pins vertical/rigid. So the single loop was all that was required. Interesting reversal of the normal arrangement.

Alan

wont keep rigid as they are tapered so unless they are going into tapered sockets..  Well you get it.  If not supported in more than one place or a tight fit at the receiver.. the finial to shank being a v around a rounded eye will act more like a hinge than a lock..   It needs more support.. Besides that when a door catches  wind it will take quite a bit to keep in from pulling or snapping off the screws..  I'm sure just pushing a little bit on the doors would show how the leverage effect would be in full application.. 

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3 minutes ago, Frosty said:

How much do the Mousehole people pay you to say such silly things John?

Frosty the Lucky.

The payment was made between 1830 and 1835, and I've been collecting the interest since 1983. 

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Thank you very much jlpservicesinc I see what you are saying now!

12 hours ago, Jim Coke said:

 You are a very skilled young smith and I think the reason some of the older smiths offer you comments is that we see your potential. Just my 2c..   I do not see why the speed of drawing out a bar is so important.

Thank you! Why do something slow if you can do it faster? I prefer to get as much done as I can and work at my full potential, and if I was to go slow and just work the bar flat on the face it would end up taking more work, and well, I'm lazy!;)

12 hours ago, Jim Coke said:

Looking at your finished parts you started with square bar and the scroll portion on one stayed square and the other transistioned into round. What's the rush? Quality first quantity last.. I only wish you lived closer to spend some time in my shop. I'm sure I would learn a thing or two from you. Keep up the great work . 

Yes I start with square, then go to round, and then go to a flatten round, so it was flat on to sides and then rounded on the other two giving me a capsule shape. they are both like that, which one were you thinking was different? I'll see if I can get a better picture.

yes, I wish we all lived closer, as my favorite thing to do is forge with other smiths! I would pay somebody to forge with me!

                                                                                                             Littleblacksmith

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28 minutes ago, littleblacksmith said:

 which one were you thinking was different? 

                                                                                                             

What kind of question is that?!! :lol:

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3 minutes ago, C-1ToolSteel said:

What kind of question is that?!! :lol:

What do you mean?

                                                                                                                         Littleblacksmith

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3 minutes ago, C-1ToolSteel said:

If there are only two, then they are BOTH different from each other.

Oh I see now! :P wow, that sure is something!  I thought I was using bad grammar or something.

                                                                                                                         Littleblacksmith

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