Rounding hammer or no

[gote]

Hope ypu are soon back at the anvil Thomas (I mean allowed to be)-

There is one thing about using hammers that not often is mentioned. It is easier to put the stock exactly on the anvil edge/horn or on a fuller than to hit exactly right with the hammer. So when working on the edge it is easier to hit right with a flattish hammer than with a rounded. If the rounded hits a little to far away or to near, it will tend to bend the stock; something the flat surface does not. Also there is no need to turn the hammer when planishing the dents made by the edhge of the anvil. A flat hammer working on the edge will also spread a little less sideways; which spread you will need to hammer back, which again is best made with a flat surface.   

This does not mean that I think that the rounding hammer is inferior it only means that it all depends upon the situation and the technique you prefer.

Ignorant people tend to throw out/destroy all kinds of valuable stuff This is one of the reasons why antiques increase in value. An old lady I used to knew, had a very interesting and beautiful garden. The realtor said it would scare buyers away so he had it bulldozed. The new owners then complained that the beautiful old garden was gone. Then we have all those who think expensive tools are cute and let them rust away as garden ornaments or use antique chests of drawers as compost bins or valuable antique pewter plates to feed chicken from. (I am not making this up)

 

[Boedie]

7 hours ago, gote said:

Hope ypu are soon back at the anvil Thomas (I mean allowed to be)-

There is one thing about using hammers that not often is mentioned. It is easier to put the stock exactly on the anvil edge/horn or on a fuller than to hit exactly right with the hammer. So when working on the edge it is easier to hit right with a flattish hammer than with a rounded. If the rounded hits a little to far away or to near, it will tend to bend the stock; something the flat surface does not. Also there is no need to turn the hammer when planishing the dents made by the edhge of the anvil. A flat hammer working on the edge will also spread a little less sideways; which spread you will need to hammer back, which again is best made with a flat surface.   

This does not mean that I think that the rounding hammer is inferior it only means that it all depends upon the situation and the technique you prefer.

Ignorant people tend to throw out/destroy all kinds of valuable stuff This is one of the reasons why antiques increase in value. An old lady I used to knew, had a very interesting and beautiful garden. The realtor said it would scare buyers away so he had it bulldozed. The new owners then complained that the beautiful old garden was gone. Then we have all those who think expensive tools are cute and let them rust away as garden ornaments or use antique chests of drawers as compost bins or valuable antique pewter plates to feed chicken from. (I am not making this up)

 

I Guessing You've Seen That Happen?

[ThomasPowers]

We once moved into a 100 year old house where the previous owner had removed some of the ornate mouldings to make rooms look better to them.  It took a lot of scrounging to find original moldings to replace them---I remember how excited I was when I ran across an illegal dump with a pile of very similar window moldings in it.  The original look looked better to me.  The next owner replaced as much wood trim as possible with plastic.  Also the slate roof with a composite roof. Also cut down the largest tree on the block that shaded the west side of the house in the summer.

*Their* *House*, *their* *right*.  (But I still wince anytime I go by it on visits to the kids and grandkids and Quad-State.)

[JHCC]

I was visiting a Frank Lloyd Wright house this morning whose original bathtub was removed in a 1960s "renovation" but restored later -- after it was found in a local farmer's field!

[AdamG]

3 hours ago, JHCC said:

I was visiting a Frank Lloyd Wright house this morning whose original bathtub was removed in a 1960s "renovation" but restored later -- after it was found in a local farmer's field!

See?  The circle of life!

[ThomasPowers]

Would the current owners fit in it?

[Frosty]

Hey, it's hard to beat a bathtub for a watering trough, we had several. I wonder what I missed by not checking them out carefully?

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I've bathed in a watering trough before when I was working in the oilpatch, continuous fill from a windmill---BRRRRRR...As I recall FLW was rather short and so some of his building had rather low ceilings...

[JHCC]

2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

As I recall FLW was rather short and so some of his building had rather low ceilings...

The ceilings are low in the hallways and bedrooms to create a sense of snugness and intimacy, but the public spaces have higher ceilings that are brighter and more airy. It's really a wonderful contrast. 

[Mark Ling]

18 hours ago, gote said:

Hope ypu are soon back at the anvil Thomas (I mean allowed to be)-

There is one thing about using hammers that not often is mentioned. It is easier to put the stock exactly on the anvil edge/horn or on a fuller than to hit exactly right with the hammer. So when working on the edge it is easier to hit right with a flattish hammer than with a rounded. If the rounded hits a little to far away or to near, it will tend to bend the stock; something the flat surface does not. Also there is no need to turn the hammer when planishing the dents made by the edhge of the anvil. A flat hammer working on the edge will also spread a little less sideways; which spread you will need to hammer back, which again is best made with a flat surface.   

This does not mean that I think that the rounding hammer is inferior it only means that it all depends upon the situation and the technique you prefer.

Ignorant people tend to throw out/destroy all kinds of valuable stuff This is one of the reasons why antiques increase in value. An old lady I used to knew, had a very interesting and beautiful garden. The realtor said it would scare buyers away so he had it bulldozed. The new owners then complained that the beautiful old garden was gone. Then we have all those who think expensive tools are cute and let them rust away as garden ornaments or use antique chests of drawers as compost bins or valuable antique pewter plates to feed chicken from. (I am not making this up)

 

one, It is easier to use the edge rather than the horn, the horn is a taper, and gets the bar all wonky...sure you can do things to prevent that, but why when there is such an easier alternative. and using a bottom fuller I don't recommend big time. leaves a really ugly forging and you don't have the option of using a larger radius or a smaller radius. Like when using the edge. want to move less steel? lower angle. more steel moved? higher angle=less surface area contact.

it is a bit of a hand off I guess, use a flat faced hammer, move less steel, get less work done each heat, or use a rounding hammer and move more metal. also, lets not forget, a rounding hammer isn't just a rounding hammer, it has a flat face too (and a straight pein, cross pein, and everything in between)! when working on the edge of the anvil, you don't have to end up with an ugly forging with a bunch of choppy looking dents. I'm going to get up on a soap box right now if I'm not already. working on the edge isn't a technique. It's how you work on the edge that is a technique. you don't work one side over the edge, hit, hit, hit, hit, and THEN rotate. you hit, rotate, hit rotate. that also does depend on what you are wanting to forge. if you are wanting to forge a square taper on a square bar, you rotate 90 degrees each hit over the edge. if you are wanting to created a one sided taper on a bit of flat stock, you rotate 180 degrees each hit, but when you get closer to the tip you rotate all sides, to check it back to the original stock thickness as when you forge it down one way it will thicken the other way. I will post a video soon, as for some reason this is one of my big things that I'm about. its not that I'm mad at people because they don't do it "my" way, but because it is sympathy for the fact that they are wasting energy, and wasting time, and not working at there full potential, and it shows in there work, with the choppy marks. ok, I'll start stepping down, slowly, but I'll get there.

spreading sideways isn't an issue, just work that side over the edge, or on the full face, depending on how much work needs to be don't to take it back down.

not trying to pick you out, or get in some argument about what works best, this is just another thing to prove the statement that "you can ask two smiths how to do something and get ten answers" or something like that....

                                                                                                                 Littleblacksmith

 

[JHCC]

2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Would the current owners fit in it?

It's owned by the college where I work; the last owner left it to us in her will. 

[gote]

Obviously I do not express myself clearly enough. I do not advocate the use of the horn or the fuller or the edge. I say IF you use them. My point is that a flat surface hammer is more forgiving for slightly off target hits than a rounded surface hammer (or peen). I did not say that something was a technique so I do not need to be corrected on the semantics of that issue.

I have another go: If we want to stretch the stock in a particular direction it is more efficient if we squeeze it between surfaces that are narrow in that direction let us call them “Blunt edges” A simple spring fuller does just that. It squeezes between two blunt edges, the upper and lower bar, in the direction perpendicular to the bars. Someone using the peen on the face of the anvil is squeezing between a bottom flat surface and a top blunt edge. Someone using the edge of the anvil is squeezing between a bottom (hopefully) blunt edge and a top flat surface (using a flat hammer that is).

It is possible to use the peen side over the edge of the anvil, which gives a similar geometry to the squeeze as the spring fuller. However, it is quite difficult to hit exactly in the right spot and with the peen parallel to the anvil edge. A flat surface hammer is very forgiving in that situation. There is no need to have the handle perpendicular to the anvil and as long as the surface of the hammer covers the contact line between the stock and anvil edge the positioning of the hit is next to irrelevant. A rounding hammer will be something in between. The angle sideways is irrelevant but the centre of the hammer should hit the centre of the contact line between stock and anvil edge. The more offset, the worse result.

Whatever we do, we have to correct it all the time. All squeeze operations will to some extent squeeze in the wrong direction and we have to turn 90° and correct against the face of the anvil and I think that this is best done using a flat surface of a hammer. Yes I agree that is not a big issue but it has to be done and the more sideways squeeze the more correction.

I do not quite understand your “choppy looking dents”. If I do a repeated squeeze, using a spring fuller peen or whatever, the result is a surface that is wavy. When I flatten these waves, they will act as peens or fullers (you name it) and further stretch the material in the direction I want. Of course this means that I stop using the peen/fuller/edge before the stock is too cold. I usually flatten my stock in the same heat - maybe even two times. (Things are done differently in different places. I have never seen a flatter in real life. I flatten with the hammer; against the anvil, which has a perfect flat). I have not time to see all videos – not even the good ones - but it strikes me, that many smiths – even good ones – tend to go on beating the stock long after it is, in my opinion, too cold. To me they are beating dead horses. If the stock is cold when flattening you will have dents – I agree on that but you are not beating dead horses are you ??

Another issue that I see (that perhaps has less bearing on this) is that many use light anvils that are rocking at each hit. If the anvil is instable you cannot expect good results unless hitting squarely on the anvil so the mass centre is below the hammer. I believe this rocking is a handicap when using the edge. I am in the lucky position that my anvil weighs nearly 250 pounds and she is supported on the perimeter of the footprint, which both stabilizes her and silences her.

Obviously one has to create the waves in order to use them so one has to move the stock lengthwise a little between each hit. They should be waves; not impressions with flats in between. To me, the flattening operation is part of the stretching operation and I think that it is quite efficient. The squeezing will be more efficient with sharper “edges” but if the edge is too sharp, the flattening will be more difficult and maybe impossible without stretching more than intended. Thus the rounded anvil edges and blunted peens. The face of a good anvil is a good flatter but more heat is lost into the anvil if a peen is used over the face than if a flattish hammer is used over the edge.

The squeeze effect depends upon the radiuses of the edges. The smaller the radius the more squeeze. If we squeeze asymmetrically with a small edge radius (anvil edge) and a large one  (infinite for the flat hammer) I would believe that the small radius is dominant. Here is where I have some difficulty in understanding. To me it seems that a rounding hammer with its relatively large radius would not make much difference.

A fuller can act in the same way as the anvil edge and has the advantage that more shapes might be available. However, the London pattern anvil is badly designed for fuller use. There is not much mass below the square hole and the hole is far away from the anvil footprint so there is flexing and maybe even rocking. One can overcome this by using a fuller resting on the sweet spot with an extension to the hole for keeping it in place. The simplest design is a (round) bar resting on the top of the anvil and having a loop down in the hole just as simple spring fullers are made. This type or fuller will help the rocking light anvil.       

[Latticino]

12 hours ago, JHCC said:

The ceilings are low in the hallways and bedrooms to create a sense of snugness and intimacy, but the public spaces have higher ceilings that are brighter and more airy. It's really a wonderful contrast. 

Don't know about that, but the one I visited in Rochester, NY (a private residence) was aesthetically pleasing, but a bit disproportionate for someone my size.  If I recall correctly hallways were narrow, built-ins were low, and the Wright chairs were extremely uncomfortable.

[JHCC]

15 minutes ago, Latticino said:

Don't know about that, but the one I visited in Rochester, NY (a private residence) was aesthetically pleasing, but a bit disproportionate for someone my size.  If I recall correctly hallways were narrow, built-ins were low, and the Wright chairs were extremely uncomfortable.

Yeah, he was a big fan of full-size beds (54" x 76") rather than queen-size (60" x 80"). Back when I was making custom furniture with my dad, we made a complete FLW dining set and had to redesign the backs of the chairs to make them more functional and less torturous. 

Here's the link to the house here: http://www.oberlin.edu/amam/flwright.html

3 hours ago, gote said:

However, the London pattern anvil is badly designed for fuller use. There is not much mass below the square hole and the hole is far away from the anvil footprint so there is flexing and maybe even rocking.   

This is one advantage of the thick-waisted Mousehole- style anvils: with a thicker and comparatively short tail, the hardy hole is better supported by the central mass of the anvil. 

[Mark Ling]

16 hours ago, gote said:

I do not advocate the use of the horn or the fuller or the edge

I understand not using the horn or a bottom fuller for drawing out, I don't use them at all, except when drawing out a hammer eye punch I use a bottom and top fuller with a striker, but that is only because you cant use the far edge. But I was most surprised by when you said you don't advocate using the edge. What do you use instead? also, may I ask if you have a power hammer, press, ect?

16 hours ago, gote said:

I do not quite understand your “choppy looking dents”.

well, I had thought we were talking about using the edge of the anvil, not a spring fuller, and where if you draw out a bar over the edge like most people do, unless it is a very radius edge, it will leave choppy marks. yes, a spring fuller isn't quite so bad, but it isn't near enough efficient to use that I have ever thought about using one. well, let me rephrase that a bit, sure, it Is efficient, although it can be difficult to maneuver the bar, turn it etc., but it isn't a very clean and controlled way of moving the metal.

16 hours ago, gote said:

To me they are beating dead horses. If the stock is cold when flattening you will have dents – I agree on that but you are not beating dead horses are you ??

I believe you are referring to plannishing. At lower temps you do not try and move metal, but clean it up. At these lower temps, there is little to no scale, and so it is not driven into the steel, and so you are left with a very clean finish, much cleaner than if you were to work at a high yellow only every heat. You do not planish every heat, but only when you are close to the final heat. When working mild steel, you can work it lower, and so if you are used to forging high carbon steel or wrought iron, this may seem outrages to be working it all the way to a dull red. I don't pull my steel out of the fire at a low heat, no, I get it close to welding, a high yellow, and work it to a red. I do know about what you are talking about, witht eh people who pull there steel out of the forge at barley a dull red and call it a heat. When working larger steel, I work it at higher temps because it will move easier, and smaller size stock you can work at lower temps and still move steel. I'm not sure though in my last response that I ever mentioned working at lower temps creates dents. Are you saying that the same hammer with the same face will cause more dents to a piece of steel when it is cold compared to when it is hot?

17 hours ago, gote said:

Another issue that I see (that perhaps has less bearing on this) is that many use light anvils that are rocking at each hit. If the anvil is instable you cannot expect good results unless hitting squarely on the anvil so the mass centre is below the hammer. I believe this rocking is a handicap when using the edge. I am in the lucky position that my anvil weighs nearly 250 pounds and she is supported on the perimeter of the footprint, which both stabilizes her and silences her.

when working on the edge on a rocky anvil compared to working on face of a rocky anvil, I would have to guess though that you still would move more steel on the edge than you would on the face. No scientific research behind that, just more of an assumption. Though, if you used the edge of your hammer, you can get pretty much the same result, but, my anvil doesn't rock much, so this isn't an issue for me.

 

17 hours ago, gote said:

Obviously one has to create the waves in order to use them so one has to move the stock lengthwise a little between each hit. They should be waves; not impressions with flats in between. To me, the flattening operation is part of the stretching operation and I think that it is quite efficient. The squeezing will be more efficient with sharper “edges” but if the edge is too sharp, the flattening will be more difficult and maybe impossible without stretching more than intended. Thus the rounded anvil edges and blunted peens. The face of a good anvil is a good flatter but more heat is lost into the anvil if a peen is used over the face than if a flattish hammer is used over the edge.

A famous quote by Brian Brazeal "don't go too far too fast". When working the steel the way I do along with Brian B., Alec Steele, ect, you fuller it while removing the dents, and so it is still an aggressive way of forging, but is a very clean way of forging and easily controlled, and honestly the best way I have found, or else I wouldn't be using it.

17 hours ago, gote said:

A fuller can act in the same way as the anvil edge and has the advantage that more shapes might be available.

I beg to differ. If we are still talking about drawing out steel, and not using a fuller as an embellishment and for style, than I think the edge is a much, much better fuller. it has the narrowest 90degree fuller, and all the way down to a flat face. really, everything is a fuller to some extent. the higher the angle of your bar, the narrower the fuller, and the more metal moved. the lower angle, larger fuller, less metal moved. and, when using the edge, you aren't having to constantly exchange hardy tools for a more or less radius of a fuller.

                                                                                                                    Littleblacksmith

[gote]

Please try to read what is actually written. You are barking up the wrong tree - again.

I meant that IN THE POST i did not advocate the use of any special method. That has  NO bearing on what I myself do. Is that clearer now?

I did not say that your marks were referring to the spring fuller. I was discussing the geometry of some of the ways to stretch a bar and why in my opinion the radius of the thinner "Blunt edge" is more important than the larger edge (you claim that yourself when you state that the anvil edge is superior). I do not claim that the simple spring fuller is more efficient in stretching a bar. I use it as an example of squeezing between two surfaces with the same radius.  My whole argument is an attempt to explain why I do not think that hitting over the anvil edge with a flat hammer hammer is substantially inferior to use a rounding hammer. AND MY ORIGINAL POINT IS THAT A FLAT HAMMER IS MORE FORGIVING WHEN A BLOW IS OFF CENTER. The topic of the thread is rounding hammers  not anvil edges.

Of course you get dents regardless of which method you use My point is that it is quite possible to make these disappear before the stock goes back into the heat and that they help in stretching if positioned suitably and if they are taken out before the stock is too cold. In a way you are saying the same but you seem to prefer taking them out in a separate operation. I do not. I feel I have better control over the process if the stock is flat again before next heat. It is easier for me to judge progress (and avoid going too far too fast). In other words when you say "You do not planish every heat" you are wrong. I do.

I did not suggest that you get more dents working at lower temps but that they are more difficult to remove at lower temps so one has to do that before the stock is too cold. No I am not saying that a hammer creates more dents at a lower temperature. I may be absurd but not that absurd. Personally I prefer not to make any dents at all with (the flat face of) my hammer. I prefer to have the dents made from the other side i.e. the anvil edge or whatever I am using. It is easier to position the stock exactly over the edge or fuller or hardie than to position the blow exactly every time.

I do not claim that a fuller is better in stretching than the anvil edge. However, it CAN be used and the efficiency depends upon the radius which can be made small. (and how much mass there is below). I saw one the day before yesterday that had a radius similar to the peen of a 3 pound cross peen hammer. And: Please: a fuller can be made to any radius mimicking any anvil edge.

I believe that it could be better to use a small radius fuller over the sweet spot than to use the edge if the anvil is light and rocking. I think that this is what I wrote did I not? I did not refer to the face of the anvil but I believe that using the peen over the face is better than using a flat face hammer on a rocking anvil edge. Not all anvils have suitable edges and the gurus of this forum always advice to wait before starting to reshape the anvil. In the meantime a bar laid securely over the sweet spot is a substitute and a kind of fuller.

[Marc1]

Aiaiaiiiii ... bananas!

 

Quote

 

Is a rounding hammer very useful/necessary in blacksmithing? Is it something I should definitely have or not?

 

 

 

Mate ... yes! ... a rounding hammer is useful, run and buy one before you get hit by a bit of stock squeezed out between a fuller and a cross peen hammer whacked by a cross eyed striker on a round edged anvil with a small base and a square hole that is too far back. 

Mm ... should have included the horn there somehow ...

•  

[gote]

2 hours ago, Marc1 said:

Mm ... should have included the horn there somehow ...

•  

You can always try again - I look forward to it.

[JHCC]

On 5/3/2017 at 4:36 AM, gote said:

One can overcome this by using a fuller resting on the sweet spot with an extension to the hole for keeping it in place. 

Thus:

(Made from a FAIR railroad track anchor.)

[Mark Ling]

20 hours ago, gote said:

I believe that it could be better to use a small radius fuller over the sweet spot than to use the edge if the anvil is light and rocking. I think that this is what I wrote did I not? I did not refer to the face of the anvil but I believe that using the peen over the face is better than using a flat face hammer on a rocking anvil edge. Not all anvils have suitable edges and the gurus of this forum always advice to wait before starting to reshape the anvil. In the meantime a bar laid securely over the sweet spot is a substitute and a kind of fuller.

I will agree that a flat faced hammer is more forgiving. But, is it too difficult to straighten the bar? I mean, with the flat side, it wont stay perfectly straight, and you will have to straighten it anyways. I find a huge difference in moving metal with the round die of the hammer compared to the flat, or else I wouldn't be using it.

This is a quick video I shot tonight. I realize It doesn't really have much to do with why the rounding hammer, but I thought it might help... Starting out I was a little more nervous and so my forging was more awkward and not how I normally forge. By the end of the video I became more comfortable and forged closer to how I typically do. That was the second time I had ever used the bottom fuller how I did, but I did find once you got to the end of the bar it kept slipping off, and you couldn't move as fast.

                                                                                                                               Littleblacksmith

[Marc1]

Mate ... I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm but that hammer is way too big for you. 

[Jasent]

4 hours ago, Marc1 said:

Mate ... I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm but that hammer is way too big for you. 

Looks like he Wields it just fine. Dosent even sound winded. 

[Frosty]

Don't you fish mouth the end of your tapers by starting back from the end? You're using a fuller in both examples, the radiused edge of your anvil IS a fuller used like that.

It's not the tool you just need practice and a proper set up for the bottom tool. Put it in your anvil the "striking" anvil is too low for you to use without strikers. 

It's just a matter of the correct set up and practice. Have you watched and practiced Brian Brazeal's method of drawing tapers? He uses a radiused edge and moves metal like a machine. Well worth a try.

I give you high marks for video production values. Excellent lighting you can see everything clearly. Also excellent audio levels you can hear everything well without being deafened. 

It's a good job all round, the video just doesn't make the point you think it does. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Tubalcain2]

hey, LB. on a totally different note, your voice sounds almost exactly like mine, only higher. don't think i've heard a voice so similar before. must be the shared german.

[jlpservicesinc]

On 5/3/2017 at 7:44 AM, Latticino said:

Don't know about that, but the one I visited in Rochester, NY (a private residence) was aesthetically pleasing, but a bit disproportionate for someone my size.  If I recall correctly hallways were narrow, built-ins were low, and the Wright chairs were extremely uncomfortable.

In old houses with each floor the ceilings get lower.. It has to do with heating and a way to even it out..   In the North east USA most homes made before 1920's have or had this difference..   My old Victorian house on the first floor the ceiling were 9ft, on the second floor 7'5" and 3rd floor 6'9"..  Also if the family had servants there was a servants section to the house and the doorways, stairways and rooms were even smaller.. almost prison like..  The Victorian house I lived in was 1 of 3 built for the nieces of George H. Gilbert.. Of Gilbertville,  and they built 3 houses for the 3 nieces  all had 15rooms and were 4 stories with servant quarters..  The servants side the halls were 28".. 

On 5/3/2017 at 9:50 PM, littleblacksmith said:

I understand not using the horn or a bottom fuller for drawing out, I don't use them at all, except when drawing out a hammer eye punch I use a bottom and top fuller with a striker, but that is only because you cant use the far edge. But I was most surprised by when you said you don't advocate using the edge. What do you use instead? also, may I ask if you have a power hammer, press, ect?

well, I had thought we were talking about using the edge of the anvil, not a spring fuller, and where if you draw out a bar over the edge like most people do, unless it is a very radius edge, it will leave choppy marks. yes, a spring fuller isn't quite so bad, but it isn't near enough efficient to use that I have ever thought about using one. well, let me rephrase that a bit, sure, it Is efficient, although it can be difficult to maneuver the bar, turn it etc., but it isn't a very clean and controlled way of moving the metal.

I believe you are referring to plannishing. At lower temps you do not try and move metal, but clean it up. At these lower temps, there is little to no scale, and so it is not driven into the steel, and so you are left with a very clean finish, much cleaner than if you were to work at a high yellow only every heat. You do not planish every heat, but only when you are close to the final heat. When working mild steel, you can work it lower, and so if you are used to forging high carbon steel or wrought iron, this may seem outrages to be working it all the way to a dull red. I don't pull my steel out of the fire at a low heat, no, I get it close to welding, a high yellow, and work it to a red. I do know about what you are talking about, witht eh people who pull there steel out of the forge at barley a dull red and call it a heat. When working larger steel, I work it at higher temps because it will move easier, and smaller size stock you can work at lower temps and still move steel. I'm not sure though in my last response that I ever mentioned working at lower temps creates dents. Are you saying that the same hammer with the same face will cause more dents to a piece of steel when it is cold compared to when it is hot?

when working on the edge on a rocky anvil compared to working on face of a rocky anvil, I would have to guess though that you still would move more steel on the edge than you would on the face. No scientific research behind that, just more of an assumption. Though, if you used the edge of your hammer, you can get pretty much the same result, but, my anvil doesn't rock much, so this isn't an issue for me.

 

A famous quote by Brian Brazeal "don't go too far too fast". When working the steel the way I do along with Brian B., Alec Steele, ect, you fuller it while removing the dents, and so it is still an aggressive way of forging, but is a very clean way of forging and easily controlled, and honestly the best way I have found, or else I wouldn't be using it.

I beg to differ. If we are still talking about drawing out steel, and not using a fuller as an embellishment and for style, than I think the edge is a much, much better fuller. it has the narrowest 90degree fuller, and all the way down to a flat face. really, everything is a fuller to some extent. the higher the angle of your bar, the narrower the fuller, and the more metal moved. the lower angle, larger fuller, less metal moved. and, when using the edge, you aren't having to constantly exchange hardy tools for a more or less radius of a fuller.

                                                                                                                    Littleblacksmith

The argument as to which works better depends on what is being done..   I use and promote using the horn for drawing out all the time.. While the shape of most horns are not conducive to drawing out with such a sharp angle as the corner of an anvil face. This whole wives tale of metal twisting and having to be corrected is from lack of experience.. 

As with any tool there is a knack and practice to make it work properly..  I've used fullers for drawing out, rounding hammers, straight peens, large hammers, small hammers, etc, etc..  It really is like all tools.. A skilled person can make something seem easy.. It all comes down to experience and perfecting what skill set you have.. 

Personally i'd rather weld on reins to tongs.. I'd rather not spend my time drawing out reins or really thick materials by hand.. While Brian's method does work it's simply another tool in the arsenal to becoming a more effective and efficient forger which all tools offer when used properly.. 

Using the edge or corner of the anvil as fuller is not new..  How do I say it without soundling like a total you know..  There really is nothing new in forging.. In several thousand years there has been more forgotten than remembered most things are a rediscovery.. 

Surface area, is surface area..  For a given contact area the less material in touch with something is going to make the deepest impression with the same amount of force applied..  That's why we have power hammers in different sizes and hydraulic presses in 1000's of tons and why there are so many different methods to get the same job done.. 

Hay Budden anvils over 150lbs had slightly rounded faces from edge to edge.. 

anyhow. to disregard any potential use of a tool is a young or old persons folly..    The idea of minimizing the contact area in forging is not a new idea.. It's simple propagated in a much larger audience now with the internet and Brian Brazeal has perfected his method which is outstanding to watch..  

 

Don't disregard any potential tool, technique or thought..  It's all about learning a craft or trade..  When I was very young I was pretty cocky because I was in great shape and forging 12 hrs a day for years.. I passed up on a lot of opportunities to learn because what I was doing worked perfectly.. 

 

As for moving steel to far to fast.. Wives tail..  It just needs to be worked properly..  If forged properly you won't get shearing or un even working of the steels surfaces to the core.   In rolling mills the steel starts moving at 1" a minute.. At the other end it's move 1000" a minute.. being reduced all the time.. 

If the steel is being moved fast enough through its full thickness there is enough friction to keep it moving and generating heat all the way to the core then there is no boundary layers being separated..  Just like forging any small diameter it will forge fine if you can catch the temp before it drops off past the transition temperature..