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Questions on Ribbon Burners


edennis

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1 hour ago, edennis said:

...making sure all the water is out of both layers of ceramic wool before venturing into the kast-o-lite 30.

I'm definitely following your progress! I'm starting to build another forge similar to the one you're building in size and I'm going back and forth between using a ribbon burner or two 3/4" Mikey burners so I'm very interested in how yours comes out!

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Ok, time to tell me your  secrets! I'm (attempting) to layer the inside with kast-o-lite 30 and I'm just not sure how to get it onto the walls and ceiling of the forge interior. As  you can see I've got  a good  base on the bottom,  but the kast-o-lite simply falls off with gravity.  Is the trick to let it set a little bit and  turn  the forge, slowly applying it? Or do you folks cast it some other way? Thanks!

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49 minutes ago, edennis said:

Ok, time to tell me your  secrets! I'm (attempting) to layer the inside with kast-o-lite 30 and I'm just not sure how to get it onto the walls and ceiling of the forge interior. As  you can see I've got  a good  base on the bottom,  but the kast-o-lite simply falls off with gravity.  Is the trick to let it set a little bit and  turn  the forge, slowly applying it? Or do you folks cast it some other way? Thanks!

 

You have to butter the surface you wish to plaster with water setting refractories or heck most any kind of masonry mortars. Spray the blanket with water or the Kast-O-Lite will flash dry on contact and the layer of dry dust will prevent it from bonding.

That said, taking a torch to the Kaowool might seem like a waste of time but it will serve to stiffen it up so might actually be beneficial. Otherwise it's not necessary to do anything special to dry refractory blankets, they can't confine steam so can't spall or break down like concrete or Plaster of Paris.

Yeah, I apply it a side at a time and let it set before turning it to the next one. It's that or make a form and cast it in place. That has it's attractions to it.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Well it went pretty well I think. I moved slowly around, turning the forge clockwise as each subsequent part set up. It was hard for me to gauge thickness, and I think it varied a bit through out especially at the joints and corners, but overall i think 3/8" - 1/2" thickness overall. I used somewhere between 12-15lb of dry Kast-O-Lite 30 and just  mixing to what seemed like a good consistency (not to wet but still sticking together and spreadable).  Anyway, I just covered it with a plastic bag so it can slowly.

The  forge is currently sitting on its right side,  so  the opening in the right part of the photo is the hole for the ribbon burner, and the hole in the back is the rear exhaust/pass through port.

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It will likely be a couple days minimum before I heat it up at all.  I know kast-o-lite has a very specific curing schedule,  but I figure that for now as  slow as I  can  go will  be good enough. Thanks,

Eric

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Alright, after a few days of slow drying I did 3 progressively hotter curing cycles. The Kast-O-Lite became a nice white color after the heat was applied.

Next will be cutting and fitting the kiln shelf and then applying Plistix. After that I can work on all the plumbing for the ribbon burner. I'm getting stoked to finally fire this up for real at some point.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I finally got this thing put together and running. First are a couple of photos showing the kiln shelf and plistix application.

Next are photos of the plumbing: the propane orifice is a brazed shut pipe coupling with a 1/16 hole drilled in the end. 

 

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Now some photos (and if it works, a video) of the  forge  running. I definitely have some  tweaking to do.

First of all the blower seems too strong so a second baffle of some sort might be in order.  

In the photos the propane is at 2psi and I'm having a bit of trouble getting past a bright red heat (the photos look brighter than it is). That said I don't have my front  "doors" (soft bricks)  put together yet, so I'm anticipating a higher temperature once the forge is closed  off a bit. 

Does anyone have thoughts on the alumina kiln shelf  in the bottom? Is this killing my heat somewhat. I like it because it is a nice smooth surface to place the steel, but the kast-0-lite beneath it is also hard, so I could just take it out.

Any tips on tuning a ribbon burner like this? Tips for maximizing heat?

 

VIDEO OF RUNNING FORGE---->>>>      MOV03135.AVI

 

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How are you regulating the flow of air?  I can't tell from the pictures or video.  Do you have a speed control for the blower or some kind of gate/valve?  For any kind of blown burner you have to be able to increase or decrease the air and the fuel independently of each other unless you have some kind of control system that automatically increases (or decreases) one when you adjust the other unlike well designed naturally aspirated burners which are designed to pull in the proper amount of air relative to the fuel stream.

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I made a blown ribbon burner earlier this year. It has a single row of nine crayon size holes. They are 1" on center. I had in mind knife making and so was going for a longer flame area. So far it seems to work good. My next improvement is to rig up a solenoid controlled air gate valve so the PID temp controller does not turn my motor on and off constantly to maintain temp. I ended up overbuilding the blower not knowing quite what would be needed and ended up needing to choke it down a lot. For the blower I followed the directions from Iron Melting Cupola. https://www.amazon.com/Melting-Cupola-Furnaces-Small-Foundry/dp/0970220308/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1499878429&sr=1-1-fkmr1&keywords=iron+casting+cupola. His directions are for a metal blower but I made it from wood.

By the way, I have plenty of space behind this so my house window and wall are not affected. I think that I can put my hand on the outside of this and not get burnt.

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I  am using this blower: https://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/products/forge-fan-fuel/blowers/gas-forge-blower-2.html

The blower has a gate on the front that can be turned to open and close. It is pretty much all the way closed so  I'm thinking I might need another gate on the air pipe after the blower.  In terms of atmosphere, will  a  dead neutral flame always be at the point where flames stop exiting the forge? Or will that vary some depending on forge design?  

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The amount of dragon's breath coming out of your openings is largely dependent on the amount of fuel and air entering the forge. The color of the dragon's breath can give you some information about how lean or rich your burner is though. A lot of blue flames coming out of your openings indicates fuel burning at the openings rather than inside the forge.  We usually want a slightly fuel rich burn, but either too much fuel or way too much air will result in lower temperatures than neutral, slightly rich, or slightly lean flames.

One caveat though.  It seems that some lining material, like Kastolite, has a tendency to produce a lot of orange flames for a while.  To me it seems like it has diminished over time though.

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So I fired it up  a second  time, this time with soft firebrick doors. I'm still having a hard time bringing it past a bright orange heat, and I dont know why. i was able to tune my atmosphere to what felt pretty good, but each time as I came close to neutral (no dragons breath), an intense vibrating noise began that was quite loud. I'm assuming this is the air starting to blow itself out? I'm not sure what to try next to get this thing running as I expected it to.

Any ideas?

 Thanks,

Eric

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UPDATE:

I checked the burner. No cracks that I can see! I've added in a 1.5" pvc ball valve into the air line until I find a gate valve (though it seems to work just fine, and it was only $10). Now that the plumbing is all together with adjustable other than the gate on the actual blower, this this is cooking! Woo hoo! The time it takes to come to heat is still a little longer than I expected, but I havn't tried bringing it to heat on more than 3 psi, and I think the kiln shelf floor might be acting as enough of a thermal mass to slow things down a bit. Boy can I tweak it though. I can micro adjust the air and the needle valve is bring it exactly where I want the atmosphere. Once it was to heat I was able to hold it at forge welding heat with 1 psi into the system. I didn't try less, but I have a feeling I could hold it up there with less. 

My one complain right now, which is my own fault (I saw this one coming), is the thin-gauge metal holding the firebrick doors pretty much immediately warped, trapping the bricks, and causing me to need to bend them back and shave down the brick to fit in the now warped channels. I guess that's why people use proper thick channel for that part. Oh well. 

I'll post pics of the final setup and maybe another video of it running once I fire it up again.

Eric 

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Good Work edennis, that hum you hear may be normal as I have it on mine as well.  Your burner looks similar to mine, 3"x3"X6" with 14 ports, I get a hum by increasing the air from a soft blue flame to a much clearer, slightly purple flame.  By the time the air pressure is increased to the clearer flame the hum has gone away.  If the ball valve is working for you I say keep it, the gate valve is nice, but the cheap ones cost $40 for the 2" pipe which is what I bought. 

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The ball  valve I bought  (a big,  1.5" pvc valve) gives me 180 degrees from off to full on. I feel like I can adjust it pretty well for now.

Though I will keep it in mind for the future if I come across a deal on a gate.  

Thanks,

Eric

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So as  per Wayne's suggestion I drilled  out  the 1/16" hole I made in the propane outlet with a 1/4" drill bit. Thanks for the suggestion, this puppy cranks now. On 1/2PSI propane I was able to weld mild steel. Here are some photos of the forge setup with the ball valve for the air (I still plan  on extending all the air and propane valves lower down to get them out of the forge heat), the forge just getting going, and the forge at welding temps.

I also have another question: the final photo  shows how the baffles I made to hold the firebrick doors  are getting orange hot and thus seem  to be conducting quite a bit of heat into the shell of the  forge. Do you guys think this is detrimental to the long  term health of the forge materials for any reason? Also after bringing the forge  up to full heat I've noticed the Kast-0-lite has been checking as it heats and cools, thin cracks running here and there (one longer one near the floor). Do others experience  this as well or is this indicative of an error on my part? Maybe I put it on too thick? Or didn't cure it properly? Thanks for looking! And one more time, thanks for all the advice along the way. I'm super happy I spent the time making this thing.   

 

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