Forge feedback

[JHCC]

Go with the vinegar, then. Can you disassemble completely before you soak it? Might be a good idea to remove the non-galvanized pieces first, so that they don't get affected by the acid. Make sure to neutralize with baking soda and wash off the film of zinc acetate before you fit everything back together again.

[Melw45]

Pulled it apart last night. My wife gave me a Tupperware container large enough for all the parts this morning.

They are all under vinegar now. Just starting to bubble.

Looks like the plating is very thick may take a while.

Thanks for looking

Mel

[Mikey98118]

You don't need to remove the zinc coating from everything; not even all the the burner tube. You only need to remove the coating from the last 4" or so, that heats up enough to form metal fumes. I used to use 'galvanized' pipe for spacer rings within the flame nozzles in some of my first burners, because, once the zinc was burned off they fit between the the nozzle and mixing tubes with minimal power sanding. I didn't know about vinegar removing zinc in those days; I just tossed the parts in the barbecue with a few pieces of coke.

Very minor gas leaks can turn into very major problems. Also, the tiniest gas leaks around the gas jet can completely destabilize some burners. For some reason gas leaks around the jets in linear burners aren't as serious as in jet ejector designs. The best policy is to just use gas rated tape or goop to seal all  gas joints in the first place.

[Melw45]

.Got the parts out of the vinegar last night. The burner tube was all clean. The burner tube had a raised ridge where it was cut and threaded I ground it off on both ends.  The conduit coupler I have for a flare did not clean just went dull. It was shiny before the vinegar.

I don't think it is galvanized. Maybe nickel plated. Put it all back together today and found no leaks.

Fired it up and it would only burn if I blocked more then half the air intake.

Tried changing the flare position as well as the reg settings with the same results.

Thanks for looking.

Mel

   

Edited April 15, 2017 by Melw45
Spelling

[timgunn1962]

Was that in the forge, or out of it?

 

[Frosty]

The couplers you're using instead of flares aren't plated, you're okay there. However when you deburred the pipe you reduced friction and back pressure significantly, it's inducing more combustion air than it needs so you have to choke it to get it to burn.

Try a larger mig tip. It's drawing really well give it more gas. This is a good thing even if you have to trim the next larger mig tip down to tune it again, it'll put more air and fuel in the forge per second making more heat. You can always turn the regulator down if it's too hot.

Your forge now has a higher performance burner. Congratulations. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Melw45]

7 hours ago, timgunn1962 said:

Was that in the forge, or out of it?

 

Out.

Mel

Thanks Frosty.

I have. A .35 tip in there now. Did not trim it.

Will try a larger one.

Mel

[Mikey98118]

Did you seal the tip against gas leaks? A tiny leak at the tip can cause some nasty side effects; just a thought.

[Melw45]

3 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Did you seal the tip against gas leaks? A tiny leak at the tip can cause some nasty side effects; just a thought.

Yep used the yellow tape.

The wether has turned to rain the last two days.

So since I am working outside it is on hold for a while.

Thanks for the ffeedback.

Mel

 

[EnglishDave]

Hi Mel

I will be very interested to see how you find this performs once you complete it, I am thinking along similar lines for my second build, the part I wonder most about is how the fiber blanket will stand up to the heat without a refractory covering. I have read other posts on here which indicate it should be fine, especially with the rigidizer coating as you have done. I saw you also said you would use a split brick as floor, that is pretty well what I have now and it seems to work well and is nice and easy (and cheap) to replace if it cracks or falls apart.

Wet here also at the moment and I am also an outdoor forger so no progress on my brick pile either this week.

Dave

[Melw45]

Thanks Dave

I Have been frustrated with the weather.

Tomorrow should be better. Give the new burner configuration a try then.

I will get some photos then as well.

Mel 

[Frosty]

Go up a little at a time. No point in trimming the jet when it's already inducing too much combustion air. Trim it when it's burning too rich.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Melw45]

Thanks Frosty.

Was going to try it with some of the intake blocked off. I want to see if being in the forge makes a difference.

Not wanting to trim the mig tip if I don't have to.

Mel

[Frosty]

Sure you can choke it but you have a burner capable of making more heat faster once you give it more fuel. You can always turn the PSI down.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Melw45]

7 hours ago, Frosty said:

Sure you can choke it but you have a burner capable of making more heat faster once you give it more fuel. You can always turn the PSI down.

Frosty The Lucky.

I am planning to try that. When I tried with the burner clamped in a vice the flame would blow out.

Thanks

Mel

[Latticino]

13 hours ago, Frosty said:

Go up a little at a time. No point in trimming the jet when it's already inducing too much combustion air. Trim it when it's burning too rich.

Frosty The Lucky.

Of course, that makes perfect sense.  Now I should be able to better trim my 1/2" Frosty Tee for my paint can portable forge.  Probably need to source a smaller orifice than the current .023 MIG tip though.  In lieu of Leurloc needles, has anyone tried to swage down a mig tip around a piece of music wire?

Sorry for thread drift...

[Frosty]

4 hours ago, Melw45 said:

I am planning to try that. When I tried with the burner clamped in a vice the flame would blow out.

Thanks

Mel

Why do people want their FORGE burner to operate well in a . . . VISE?! Unless you need it as a torch outside a forge what is the point of tuning it to burn in open air? 

Ron Reil spent a long time and a lot of effort trying to get his burners to burn well in open air and the forge. We'd drifted into our own little burner realms and stopped talking much before he got it to work consistently. I don't know if he did or how much PITA it is, I haven't heard. Nor have I asked I recommend making or better yet buying a torch if you need a torch.

1 hour ago, Latticino said:

Of course, that makes perfect sense.  Now I should be able to better trim my 1/2" Frosty Tee for my paint can portable forge.  Probably need to source a smaller orifice than the current .023 MIG tip though.  In lieu of Leurloc needles, has anyone tried to swage down a mig tip around a piece of music wire?

Sorry for thread drift...

I believe Mike talks about swaging mig tips down and filing them to the correct size. Teenylittlemetal guy (Tristan) makes 1/2" T burners that work a treat and uses metric mig contact tips the general equivalent of 0.023 tips.

I tune burners by positioning the jet in the air intake. The throat being the transition point between the intake plenum (T) and the tube. The closer to the throat the less chance the propane jet has to induce combustion air. The farther back the more air and leaner the flame.

The more air it induces the more fuel you can feed into the burner. I'm a greedy sort, I want as much heat as a device can generate and maintain an acceptable flame chemistry. I like SLIGHTLY rich, increased CO and all.

So as a departure point for tuning a burner I like a mig contact tip Jet that's rich when in or at the throat. Then I start trimming it a LITTLE at a time till I have the flame chemistry I want. After building a few you know what tip to start with and can estimate how deep it should be making fine tuning a matter of filing or sanding the tip the last few thousandths.

There are other ways to tune burners, Mike's work best by adjusting the flare depth and using a choke sleeve for fine tuning.

Being home built every burner is going to be a little different.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Latticino,

You can find all kinds of these details on the last couple of pages in the Burners 101 thread, but the short answer is that it is a lot easier to use a hypodermic needle or heavy wall capillary tube, cut to a short length, and pick a MIG tip with the right orifice diameter to swage around around the tube.. Even if you used just the right amount of force to swage the the tip around piano wire, and still extract it afterwards, The force of friction in such small diameter orifices finally come into play BIG TIME; it will ruin all your efforts; Been there done that for the last two months. That way is a dead end. You will find that even with capillary tube of the right inside diameter, 1/16" greater or lesser lemgth in about a 1/2" tube makes a huge performance difference. this is one of the reason I advice people to start with an overlong tube, and sand it down to length.

That should read sand it down to length after is is mounted in the MIG tip.

[Mikey98118]

Frosty,

It's all just a matter of where you're coming from. Ron had a burner design that all but forced him to position the jet opening in one place, regardless of where it would have worked best; he had no chance to adjust performance by finding a "sweet spot" in the jet's position. However, the amount of flame nozzle overhang beyond the end of the burner's mixing tube solved that problem.

I started designing from his burner, and found that nozzle overhang is a perfect way to to fine tune the flame on my burner, even though it is a jet  ejector type and his is linear; and even though the gas jet can be easily adjusted on my burners to find the sweet spot. I always tune my burners out in the open air, simply because they are harder to adjust that way; once they are installed in a forge, their flames form perfect looking stilettos, which are nice, but doesn't tell me anything useful about whether or not I'm getting every thing the burner has to give.

The three of us followed our own paths to burner design; all three of our burners will run okay in a forge or furnace sans flame nozzle. Whether or not the burner is turning out its best flame that way is a question we each must answer for ourselves. With my burners the answer is heck no. Ron apparently felt the same about his burners. I know your burner puts out a nice flame without a nozzle. There are good and sufficient reasons to leave it at that. On the other hand, I've seen a "T" burner put out a marvelous wonderful joy-for-ever flame. I would use a nozzle on a "T" burner. Which way is the right one? Isn't choice a wonderful thing? We don't have to answer that question; it's builders choice...happily.

[Mikey98118]

So what practical difference is there between a good enough flame and a perfect flame from Frosty's burner? Well maybe a lot, and maybe precious little--in a forge. Now turn that same burner down side up. There it is blazing away into the air...now consider a glass artist trying to use that flame; all of the sudden a perfect hot s-o-f-t flame coming out of an air/fuel burner makes a huge difference--HUGE!  Suddenly, it is all the difference!!!

When the first LASER hit the news back in the sixties some wag stated "if LASERs are the answer. what is the question". It didn't take very long for time to shut his mouth.

[Melw45]

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Why do people want their FORGE burner to operate well in a . . . VISE?! Unless you need it as a torch outside a forge what is the point of tuning it to burn in open air? 

That is why I put it away until I could tune it in my forge. I should get to it.

Thinks for the insite in to fthe mig tip placement.

Mel

[Melw45]

Wow with it in the forge it woke up!

Would take as much gas as i could give it.

Now for some pics.

You can just see the mig tip in the burner.

The next one is when I had just lit it.

My wife came out to see How I was doing and had to take some photos.

So you get to see watching a rusty bolt heat up.

Next is a hot bolt in the forge.

Last photo is what it looked like when I stopped,

Kind of a snake shape.

While I was rummaging around in my garage I had found some tong shaped things.

I recall making them to put metal in to a foundry furnace I made years ago.

Kind of worked to put the bolt in and out of the forge.

OK I have learned some things,

Need real tongs!

Need to make the snake head first.

This is some seriously hot work.

Thanks for looking.

Mel

 

[EnglishDave]

I am no expert but looks hot to me Mel, do you plan on trying any forge welding in there? I guess that is the real test of how hot you can get it, then again if you only want to forge then it doesn't matter so much

Let us know how the 'bare' wool liner holds up after a few firings....

[Melw45]

Forging for now. Welding later. Need to learn hammer control first. Do know that this forge made the bolt hot in a short time.

I know that there will be a larger forge in the future. I should have put a door on the back of this one. I was worred that the spring stock I have would not fit in the forge.

I checked last night and it did. I hope to get some of it straight today. Want to make some punchs and small drifts.

thanks for looking

Mel

[EnglishDave]

Yeah mine is essentially an open ended box, I can close off the rear opening with firebricks but can slide them apart when I start to forge that claymore one day