Forney 42405 Supercote Hardfacing Welding Rod for Anvil

[handtoolrescue]

Hey All,

Would the Forney 42405 Supercote Hardfacing Welding Rod be a fair choice for fixing the face of this cast steel Soderfors anvil?  It has some torch cut marks in it.

Thanks!

[John McPherson]

No, the Supercote rods are for general wear resistance, and the finished beads are softer when in place.

The Superwear (#42801) are high impact/medium abrasion, heat treatable and hardenable to RC 58-60, about what a good anvil face should be. Downside, they only come in 5/32", so you need a big machine capable of 160-200 amps.

An alternative if you know someone who can TIG is S7 wire.

[Frosty]

NO! What John said, it's not for impact resistance. You need a "steel on stone" hardface rod, the one John mentions is a good choice. 

The serious downside is heat treating after you've filled the scars, Soderfors are cast high carbon steel and the HAZ will have effected the hardness of the face. Doing this right is no small undertaking, getting the quench right is a major issue.

You can do the tool using world a favor by finding whoever did that to an anvil and amputating his arms or something else appropriate, he shouldn't have access to a tool more useful than a plastic spoon.

Frosty The Lucky.

[handtoolrescue]

Well that is good to know! Thank you.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

My advice would be to just work around the scars. You have a lot of good real estate left. If after a year you have found several times that they were a detriment, then look at welding. 

The problem with welding is that the top of the anvil is hardened. You lay a bead down and to do that you have to melt the steel in that area with the weld bead. That temp is far higher than the tempering temps, so you get a Heat Affected Zone (HAZ) next to the bead. It is that part that is the issue-getting the hardness to match.  Depending on the alloy being welded, and the cooling rate, it may be softer, or it may be brittle hard. 

How wide are the gouges? Could you use them as slots to bend thin rods?

 

[JHCC]

20 hours ago, Frosty said:

You can do the tool using world a favor by finding whoever did that to an anvil and amputating his arms or something else appropriate, he shouldn't have access to a tool more useful than a plastic spoon.

Frosty The Lucky.

Absolutely, even though it's just a Soderfors. Even more so, if it were a Mouse Hole. 

[the iron dwarf]

someone has done a lot of grinding on that anvil, probably lost a century of the life left in it by doing that.

was that the previous owner?

[Wroughton]

On February 11, 2017 at 8:23 AM, John McPherson said:

No, the Supercote rods are for general wear resistance, and the finished beads are softer when in place.

The Superwear (#42801) are high impact/medium abrasion, heat treatable and hardenable to RC 58-60, about what a good anvil face should be. Downside, they only come in 5/32", so you need a big machine capable of 160-200 amps.

An alternative if you know someone who can TIG is S7 wire.

Well, I bend before the welding instructor. BUT! I use nickel stick rod for TIG welding cast iron all the time. Without further instruction I would assume I could get away with this technique using the larger hard facing rod. Knock the flux off first .

I know it's blasphemy, but I just repair my anvils with 70s mig wire. It's standard BUILD UP for scrap metal shears so it should work out ok for an anvil. Works well, always softer than my hammers. By the look of it, one of my PW's was repaired with a stick welder and coat hanger as filler rod. After I took over care and feeding of said anvil I ground the newer porosity filled fix job off and made multiple passes with my MIG. This anvil is the main shop beast and hasn't had a problem holding up. Stick welding with 7018 would work as well. 

If you use the Superwear,  you want a soft build up and just a top layer of hard facing. Otherwise, expect cracking even with a full heat cycle.  

I would "sweat" the anvil to drive out the ambient moisture and weld with the MIG 70s wire or stick weld with 7018. Done. Maybe even hump up the weld proud of the anvil face, and then pound with a hammer before grinding to finish height. These are small spots to fix relative to other anvil fixes and the filler metal will actually be contained by good original material. One other thing on your fix, no matter what welding technique you choose, those torch cuts inevitably drive slag down into the cut. You must get all of that porosity and junk out of those slots before you try to weld or you may be upset with the results. 

Daswulf, these techniques will NOT work on granite. 

[ThomasPowers]

Are you saying that cast iron and cast steel work the same?  Sodefors are cast steel.

[handtoolrescue]

12 hours ago, the iron dwarf said:

someone has done a lot of grinding on that anvil, probably lost a century of the life left in it by doing that.

was that the previous owner?

Definitely the previous owner...I don't know why he did that.

[the iron dwarf]

4 hours ago, handtoolrescue said:

Definitely the previous owner...I don't know why he did that.

to lower the value is the only reasonable explanation or make it into a garden ornament

 

[Tommytaptap]

Most likely he'd been sacked if working for him-or a home alone teenage rebel i'd say. Steel sacrilege whatever the reason.

[Wroughton]

16 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Are you saying that cast iron and cast steel work the same?  Sodefors are cast steel.

Negative Bogiron. Simply pointing out that filler metal is filler metal and it usually doesn't care what process you deliver the goods with. 

[Wroughton]

Here's my Soderfors. The face of the anvil to be repaired doesn't look that ground in comparison and the table is flush with the horn as is mine. I'd clean those cuts up, weld them full and start pounding.

 

Mine is new old stock. A professional door stop.

[Marc1]

I fixed a 40k cast steel anvil that had a few cast defects about 10mmx10mm and 5mm deep with the mig and I use that anvil all the time for smaller jobs. 

Nice little anvil that one Wrought, is it the photo or the step is at an angle?

[tanglediver]

Floggings will commence presently.

 

The face still has lots of good real estate. But the arc welder in me says just weld it. Naturally, the ability to deal with the heat treat becomes the deciding vote, as always.

 

 

[Daswulf]

Please leave that beautiful anvil be.

It is absolutely perfect as is.

 

what can't you do on it as it is?

 

 

[Frosty]

You guys who are professional welders and say "just weld it up" are just like so many professional welders who have ruined many an anvil.

Do any of you know what alloy Soderfors used for anvils. . . that size. . . .that year? No, it's NOT high carbon low alloy, it's high carbon vanadium or manganese steel sometimes both, depends on the decade and which ore they were mining at the time. 

Do you know the properties of the HAZ on manganese steel? 

Of course that is your anvil to it as you please but it's perfectly usable as she sits and could well NOT be after "repairing" some cosmetic torch cuts.

Torch marks like that are typically made by guys who need to cut something and just don't give a fig about an anvil. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JeepinJoe]

No one has brought this up but if those scars were created by a cutting torch the heat treatment around the area of the scars has been compromised already.

[handtoolrescue]

1 hour ago, JeepinJoe said:

No one has brought this up but if those scars were created by a cutting torch the heat treatment around the area of the scars has been compromised already.

Excellent point.  It only has about 50-60% rebound currently anyways.

[Tubalcain2]

the lack of rebound is definitely due to human-inflicted damage. a soderfors that has not been messed with will yield 80-95 percent rebound.

[bubba682]

If it were me i would try to work around it but if that becomes a problem i would use 7018 a1 low alloy high tensile strength stick 3 /32 theres heat damage any way sweat it out run quick stringers build it up grind it smooth cover it with some old welding jackets and let it cool.Evan a 50-60% rebound is still pretty good plus it'll look nice those rods are pretty good to use and 80 amps are plenty in the flat.Start your beads oppacite of each other each time you run a pass so the build up is even on the ends.

[Wroughton]

On February 13, 2017 at 11:49 PM, Frosty said:

You guys who are professional welders and say "just weld it up" are just like so many professional welders who have ruined many an anvil.

Do any of you know what alloy Soderfors used for anvils. . . that size. . . .that year? No, it's NOT high carbon low alloy, it's high carbon vanadium or manganese steel sometimes both, depends on the decade and which ore they were mining at the time. 

Do you know the properties of the HAZ on manganese steel? 

 

I've been Frosted!

You make it sound like I chucked a grenade.  For someone that likes the "particulars" you sure broad stroked my two cents. I haven't ruined an anvil yet, but I am still practicing. 

One more time.  Clean the gouges to remove cutting slag. Heat the anvil to about 120 degrees by putting a weed burner on the body of the anvil. There are temp pencils for this or use an app on your phone.  All  you're doing is removing ambient moisture and that will help make sure you get a good weld. You don't want to anneal the face. Weld with 7018 stick rod or 70s MIG with a 200 amp or bigger machine. Since it's cold out maybe wrap the anvil in a bat of fiberglass insulation after your done to stay away from any thermal shock (overkill IMHO) but this is also why you bring the whole anvil to the 120 temp. It will cool slowly and everything should be happy, not Frosty. 

Sure, there will be a small amount of annealing around the weld but the face will hold.  AGAIN, these small cosmetic fills are protected and contained by the original anvil face material. After a lot of hammering (years) you might notice a slight dipping from scale abrasion in the filled spots but it will be marginal. The nature of the marks are the only reason I'm advocating for this particular method. If half the face was gone I would be singing a different tune altogether and we'd be getting into a proper Soderfors metallurgy class and heat treat discussion/speculation.

To the comments about leaving the scars.....UGH! I can't visualize working around those. If I was that much of a masochist I'd just pound on my thumb a while . I polish out nicks and scratches on my anvils. The first time you have to dance around those marks you'll see the reasoning behind that. The time you forge your piece into one of those gouges and you'll be getting out your welder. 

As with any welding, or any shop work for that matter, good ventilation is a must. 

And, one more thing. I forge and weld vanadium wrenches and other tools all the time. They readily weld with 7018 and 70s wire and are used as handles on camp stoves and augmented tooling without failure. Live and learn but don't let the fear of the boogeyman keep you from repairing your tools. 

 

 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

With that anvil it wouldn't be hard for me to work around the scars since the offhand edge for me is clean-horn left. How often are you forging something that would not fit in the clear spaces? I'm not working 4" square stock by hand....and I doubt anyone would on that anvil. 

My biggest issue with welding would be the possibility of making it too hard from fast cooling of the weld bead creating a brittleness issue. Hardness of the face just extends the life of the face, and we advocate using mild steel scrap all the time for forging so rebound isn't an issue. I think if a test was done of duplicate chunks of steel at different hardness you would find the metal would move the same with equal blows on each one. Rebound is just a measurement of hardness, not how well the anvil will move metal. Welding those cuts up will affect a much greater area than the cutting torch did originally. Softer tops will mushroom more over time, and brittle ones will chip more readily. 

As to using 70 series wire, or 7018. If you are going to go through the trouble of welding it, might was well do it with the best rod, and those are not the best for that application. A couple of rods for a small repair like these won't cost that much.

Like I mentioned previously, I would say use it for a good year of forging, then consider any repairs. You may find those defects to be a plus--thin bending fork, veining, etc...

[bubba682]

I wouldnt worry about usin that specialty rod for the repair because i read on here somewhere in this thread that it only comes in 5/32 which is to thick for those gouges to make a good repair and way to much heat i would stick to the 7018 if it mushrooms big deal reweld and grind to the desirable profile.