RobbieG Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Hi there, can anybody recommend suitable torch alternatives to oxy acetylene for isolating heats for the likes of riveting and some scrollwork? Set-up costs for oxy acetylene are very high here because bottles have to be taken on a lease basis. I have a small butane torch but it doesn't have the heat required for anything larger than a 6mm (1/4") rivet. Up to now I have been heating in the forge and cooling with water where required but it would be nice to be able to get really accurate heats at times. I don't have much interest in gas welding so oxy propane was a consideration, but the oxy bottles still need to be hired. Are there any propane torches with enough power for this type of thing? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 You can run a oxy/propane set up. You can also get a turbo torch that runs off propane only. Without the oxygen though the amount of heat is limited. Look up Frosty's T burner. You can build a small gas forge to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 I have built one of Frostys burners and have been using it for a while now, its a great design. I'm more interested in something that would allow me to apply heat to a very small area quickly. If the only option is Oxy-propane or Oxy acetylene then I'll just have to start saving and make sure I use it enough to justify the running cost! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 There was a post not too long ago on propane fired NA micro-burners. I would expect that one of those would suit, but will still not give you the output of oxy-propane or oxy acetylene. You could also look into an acetylene torch sometimes used by jewelers and plumbers. I believe it is called a presto-lite, and they are often available cheap, on the used market (Craig's list and the like). Not sure on the output, but think they are used for brazing on a regular basis, so they will most likely be better than a big-box butane torch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Poet Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I know for a fact that you can buy acetylene and oxygen bottles, A year or two ago a distributor near me was selling 3-foot tall tanks. I don't know if they were legally able to do that or if they got permission for Airgas, but if you do get the chance to own a set they will exchange them just like any other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Totally legal to own any size tank but most distributors will only sell the 3' and shorter ones. Suck it up. Buy an oxy and use a 20# propane tank. It will pay for itself repeatedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Would oxygen propylene get hot enough for your purposes? It burns a lot hotter than oxygen-propane. Oxy-mapp gas might also work. Some people here, on i.f.i., cannot get mapp gas anymore. It is still available in St. Louis. (perhaps it is old stock left around after the mapp gas phase out.). SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Folks it may be legal to own them in your country but do you *KNOW* the laws in the OP's country? As the problem seems to be with the oxy bottle other fuel gas suggestions to work with Oxy don't seem to be germaine. So gasoline/air torches get to high temps as they have been used to melt metals; but in reality going Oxy-Propane is probably your best bet. A plus is that Oxy-Propane is great for cutting steel as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 T. P. is correct. The laws in each specific jurisdiction are operative. But there is a way to discover the law, without having to go to law school or to employ a lawyer to find out. The following suggestion works for most countries. Let me explain. Ignorance of the law is no defense. Therefor, people ARE expected to know the law. ("I did not know about that law") To help people, the attorney general usually is tasked with informing the public about the law. Phone them up, and politely ask what statute and specific clause pertains to your query. They will inform you. But note, they do NOT have to give you a legal opinion concerning a specific set of facts for a specific situation. They are not allowed to render legal opinions. You just get the statute, that's it. We should consult with a lawyer for opinions. Or legal aid or the dean of a law school. They may help if they want but are not legally bound to do so. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Look into electric options. A friend had a small arc welder that also did carbon arc brazing with what he called a dragon tooth. You brought the two carbon rods together to create an arc then used that for brazing. But, what he would do for stuck bolts was to have the welder off, clasp the bolt between the rods tightly, then turn the welder on. When the bolt was hot enough he would shut the welder off. There are also heating units for soldering that clamp onto the copper pipe. An induction unit would be great, but they are out of reach for most folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 16 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Folks it may be legal to own them in your country but do you *KNOW* the laws in the OP's country? As the problem seems to be with the oxy bottle other fuel gas suggestions to work with Oxy don't seem to be germaine. So gasoline/air torches get to high temps as they have been used to melt metals; but in reality going Oxy-Propane is probably your best bet. A plus is that Oxy-Propane is great for cutting steel as well. As Thomas has pointed out things are different here; whilst it is not illegal to own bottles, you will not be able to get them refilled easily by any reputable source. Since I run a few propane tanks for gas forge/home cooking/BBQ etc the oxy propane may be the way to go - the gas cutting could come in handy too I guess. 14 hours ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said: Look into electric options. A friend had a small arc welder that also did carbon arc brazing with what he called a dragon tooth. You brought the two carbon rods together to create an arc then used that for brazing. But, what he would do for stuck bolts was to have the welder off, clasp the bolt between the rods tightly, then turn the welder on. When the bolt was hot enough he would shut the welder off. There are also heating units for soldering that clamp onto the copper pipe. An induction unit would be great, but they are out of reach for most folks. I will definitely look into this as well, sounds interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Have you considered buying an oxygen generator? They operate by compressing air against a series of semipermeable membranes to segregate the oxygen from air. I know they work well for general torch work but don't develop enough PSI (or would that be KPM?) to do more than light torch cutting. I have a friend who uses a LOT of oxygen for heating and his wife does glass torch work. He switched to an oxy generator a couple decades ago and never looked back. On the rare occasion he needs to torch cut thicker material he rents a torch or borrows an oxy bottle. I googled oxy generator and the following (I hope disabled enough to meet IFI rules) site is the first that looked appropriate I saw in a long list of mostly medical oxy generator sites. onsitegas.com/oxygen-generators Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 This topic generated hundreds of post on dozen of pages in a metalwork forum I used to visit. The simple answer is ... it depends how much oxy/acetilene you use. If you use a lot, say a cylinder a month, you are better off renting. The rent is offset by the cheaper gas. if you use a couple of cylinders a year, you are better off buying the cylinder and get it refilled when you need it. You will pay dearer for the gas though. This second option is a novelty in some countries, in others, the gas company still has a monopoly like BOC had in OZ until recently. Now new gas license have been issued and the monopoly is broken. The alternatives like oxy propane, propane compressed air and the others, are a compromise that don't always work for intended purpose. Forget black market or stolen cylinders. You open yourself to all sort of trouble that is clearly not worth it. We had a cylinder black market in Sydney not long ago, from people closing metal work or panel beater shop and selling the rental cylinder full or half full for the value of the content. Definitely not worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba682 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I run oxy propane for 20 years all ya need to do is sup your acy tip for a propane tip thats it i cut up to inch and a quarter steel with an old iron worker torch its alot cheaper than acetylene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 One must also use a propane rated hose, type T. FYI, I own all my own tanks including very large ones. Some I bought at police auctions, Some I found at the local trash collection area. All the dealers in my area will fill them provided I have an account and proof of ownership. I have saved untold thousands of dollars this way. The disadvantage of owned tanks is that they don't get swapped, They get sent to the plant to be filled. About a week out. For this reason I have four large oxy tanks and two large argon tanks. I only have one large argon CO2 mix but I use that the least and can substitute pure CO2. As well I have many acetylene B tanks and other small tanks. For convenient use I transfer gas from the large tanks to small ones (oxy and argon) using pigtails I bought from the welding supply for about $20 American. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba682 Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Your right about the type t hose for propane but i got 20 yrs out of regular hose before i put a new one on so i don't worry about it plus i got flash suppressors on.I had a hose cut on me once when someone dropped some hot steel on them.I strongly advice flash arresters on the regs up here its law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 On 4/8/2017 at 6:43 PM, bubba682 said: Your right about the type t hose for propane but i got 20 yrs out of regular hose before i put a new one on so i don't worry about it plus i got flash suppressors on.I had a hose cut on me once when someone dropped some hot steel on them.I strongly advice flash arresters on the regs up here its law. Not needed for propane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba682 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Wats not needed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Flashback arrestors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Acetylene can exothermically disassociate even without O2 and so a flashback arrestor is MANDATORY as without it a flashback can propagate into the tank and BOOM! Propane can't; it has to have O2 and so can't propagate back into a tank full of propane. This should be covered in basic welding. It was back when I had metalshop in the early 1970's in middle school, (grades 7&8 here in the USA) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba682 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Mine are stayin on REGARDLESS lol and i can barely remember last week let alone shop class.Also the regs came off my acetlylene set up so why take them off its not hurting anything plus it wont get lost this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Shouldn't cause a problem as long as they are rated for propane use and helpfull if someone ever moves it over to O/A without thinking...I like "For all Fuel Gasses" stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba682 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 I'll have to check our regulations up here but i think mine are and thats whats sold here mostly, mine have been on and off propane and acytelyne for 20 yrs.Now i''l have to check and see if theres a replacement date on them who knows should i check with google the distributor or manufacturer decisions dicisions lol i like'd it better when i was an apprentice 25 yrs ago i could ask the instructor or nearest jm now i got to be responsible.I guess from now on no more off the cuff for me on here its goin to be all by the book on welding answers now i got remember were all my books are.Just out of curiosidy who on here does welding for a livin im talkin high pressure positional tig and stick xray work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackdawg Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 All a flash back arestor is, is a fine mesh like what is in a davey miners lamp. unless you hole it by sticking something through the unit, they never wear out. If you think they are necessary to have on a fuel source, then you should run them on propane as well, their job is to stop flame traveling back to the fuel source if something goes wrong. If it also incorporates a non return valve to stop gas moving back up the line, that is a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba682 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 5 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Shouldn't cause a problem as long as they are rated for propane use and helpfull if someone ever moves it over to O/A without thinking...I like "For all Fuel Gasses" stuff! Thomas i went and did some researchin on propane and flashback arrestors couldn't find me books so i googled lol anyway your 7th grade shop teacher was kinda right but kinda not anyway heres the scoop propane being used on its own does not require arrestors ie bbq tank because of its state and atmosphere.Once its hooked up to a oxy /fuel gas system ie torch regulators they are required because of the chance oxygen can enter the propane tank and cause a pressure spike or introduce a spark.Also there cheap and can save your life and if anybody ever came on a site im working on without them in burn gear you would be run by safety guarenteed or charged by the government inspectors. Anyway im not tryin to be difficult but to me safety comes first in my shop at home or work and if someone don't want to run them on burn gear then you shouldn't be allowed to own it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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