G-ManBart Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Hey all, I went on a bit of an anvil finding trip today and came home with two small anvils that aren't marked. I'm not overly concerned with ID, but figured it was worth getting a few opinions. The one with the smaller horn weighs 52lbs and the other is 57lbs. Both have about 6" of rebound when tested with my 1" ball bearing, so not great, but not completely worthless. Neither had a really loud ring, but the sound was very consistent everywhere I checked. So, fire away with any ID ideas you have, and what you think fair market value is. I'm probably going to keep one and sell one to hopefully cover the cost of gas to go get them, but I didn't really buy them to flip...they just happened to be 20 minutes from one another. Here's the one that weighed 52lbs: This one weighed 57lbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I can't venture an educated guess regarding the ID but a lighter anvil WILL have a lower rebound % BECAUSE it's lighter. This is reason #2 I use small bearing balls. #1, A 1/2" ball is easier to carry in your pocket without notice. #2, It's better for the test's purposes because it's lower mass has less effect on the anvil. You're not interested in moving the anvil as much as possible you want to observe the % the ball rebounds. Bigger is NOT better in most cases. Don't go silly small or you'll lose the things to a bad bounce off a dust speck or under a seam in your pocket. I found 3/8" balls were pushing unworkabley small, 1/2" work fine and are common. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Hate to be the one to break it to you, but: you came home with -0- anvils. Both are cast iron ASO's, or Anvil Shaped objects. #1 was cast from a mold of a real anvil, #2 was a pure invention of a foundryman who had little real interaction with an anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 15, 2017 Author Share Posted January 15, 2017 Well, they were cheap, so I'm not too worried. Still, I didn't think ASO's normally had any reasonable amount of rebound? #2 very clearly has a top plate, but that doesn't show up well in the pictures, and I didn't think anybody made ASO's that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Oh, they are not totally worthless, but less than ideal for a blacksmith. Good jewelers bench anvils, probably. Our school jewelry studio has one almost identical to #1, and when I cleaned it up, there were porosity pits even in the face. Combine the soft face, lack of significant rebound, AND pits to contend with, then you have a sub-optimal tool, at least for blacksmithing. They seem to have been copied from a small gracile Hay-Budden, but were all left rough and without a pritchel. The hardy hole always seems to be out of square as well. Heavy hammering on thin castings is a bad idea, anything bigger than a one pound hammer might crack the horn and heel. #2 is made in such a way that it is missing mass where it needs it the most, dead center. That deep well in the base is an old founders trick to save metal, but is a drawback on an anvil. You say that it has a steel face, have you tested it with a file to see just how hard it is? Clean a small section on the side and do an acid etch to see just how thick the steel face really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 15, 2017 Author Share Posted January 15, 2017 The acid etch is a good idea...I'll try that. I didn't have a file with me, but that's easy enough to do. My thought on #1 was that it could be a more modern cast steel anvil since it had a reasonable amount of rebound and it sure looks like a steel face on #2, but I'll find out. I wasn't expecting much from these two, so I'm not disappointed either way. I've got a 150lb anvil that I can use...it's got some damage, but it was under $1/lb and there's enough left to work with. It's got about 90% rebound and I think can be fixed if I can find an anvil repair day nearby. I'm still looking for something bigger/better, so all of these are true starters for me. These two little guys came up when I was looking at a #6 Fisher & Norris double-screw chain drive vise...still in negotiations for that. I did a quick rebound test on these two....not so I uploaded them. IMG_3480.MOV IMG_3492.MOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 15, 2017 Author Share Posted January 15, 2017 I don't have any nitric acid handy (will find some), but I did have cold bluing for gunsmith work, and tried that (two different kinds with different acid). The face on both turned black like it should for steel. The side of #1 also turned black. The side of #2 turned a brownish color with a change obvious where the seam appears to be for a top plate. I also found that running a wire brush on the side of #2 produced long sparks below the seam that appears to be for the top plate, and nothing from the face itself or right above the seam. It's not easy to measure exactly, but I got right around 1/2" thickness from the seam to the top. That is also where the acid changed color slightly. A file skipped over the edges of both, which seems like a good sign. Doing a hammer drop test with a 1lb ball peen hammer left no marks in the face of either, and decent rebound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 Yesterday I had a chance to look at a 200lb Peter Wright and 220lb Columbian Type F double horn anvil. Funny thing...neither one had better rebound than these two little fellas had. The same guy had two new 330lb Refflinghaus (one style 57 and one style 58) that were in another world entirely....wow! Guess I know what I'm saving my pennies for now. I took a picture of the Columbian for a friend, but you can see one of the Refflinghaus in the background: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Historically larger anvils tend to have softer faces; both due to manufacturing process and as they were generally used for heavier/harder use---you don't have 3 guys with 16# sledges working a piece on an 84# anvil; but it might be common with a 400# anvil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 That's a good point. I wonder if it would apply for something as small as 200-220lbs? I decided that both of these were too small for my plans, so they've gone to new homes, and I'm sure I lost a few dollars after gas money is added in, but it looks like I have a 145lb Hay Budden to pick up in a few days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Oh, the suffering.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 On January 21, 2017 at 9:01 AM, JHCC said: Oh, the suffering.... I know, right? I put a bid in thinking I would never get it, and I did...shocked. I'm hoping to pick it up this week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Oh man, for some reason, I really want that smaller stouter anvil for some reason....and then that double horn peter wright....wow....what JHCC said... Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 Finally got the Hay Budden home....145lbs and pretty nice edges (sorry for the poor pic). Serial number looks to be 146868. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 That looks to be in fine condition I might not even dress the edges. Next time prop the flash light on something to the side. The beam will cover more area and light at an oblique angle will show features better. Still not a bad pic, lots worse are posted all the time. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubalcain2 Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 nice find. pretty good shape too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisPTF Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Looks like a great anvil, the edges are fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-1ToolSteel Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 These comments are entirely too lacking in exclamation marks!!! You have a Hay Budden! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisPTF Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Your Serial # 146868 dates it at year made 1907 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 G-ManBart.....small world; your H-B serial #146868. I acquired a 170# Hay Budden about 4 years ago, serial #146688. Only 180 anvils difference in manufacture time!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 Thanks guys! I'm pretty excited about it....good pictures in the next day or two :-) 6 hours ago, ChrisPTF said: Your Serial # 146868 dates it at year made 1907 Thanks...that's what I figured based upon a little research. It seems that was the year H-B started the transition to a two-piece anvil with the top half all forged rather than just a forged top plate. Good stuff! 4 hours ago, arkie said: G-ManBart.....small world; your H-B serial #146868. I acquired a 170# Hay Budden about 4 years ago, serial #146688. Only 180 anvils difference in manufacture time!! Heck, that was probably the same week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 Better pics....the edges aren't perfect, but not bad. I'm pretty sure it won't be the limiting factor as I get started Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 You're right they are not perfect, they are too sharp and square in many places. However you can easily change that! So many people seem to have the misplaced view that an anvil should have sq edges; probably due to the fact they were shipped that way. However it was expected that the new owner would dress the edges to suit their work habits---just like European hammers used to be sold undressed as the owner was expected to modify them to suit themselves. I have a Blacksmithing book from 1889-1891 that states "For my own part, I am satisfied not only that sharp edges are useless, but they are also destructive of good work. I cannot account for their existence except as a relic of a time when the principles of forging were but little understood." Practical Blacksmithing, Richardson, Vol 1, page 111. Of course this was even more important when real wrought iron was being forged as a sharp edge of an anvil could leave cold shuts and stress concentrators in the work piece; but still the "modern" practice of wanting to grind or mill down the face---throwing away perhaps a century of uselife and sometimes taking a perfectly usable anvil and making it useless when the face is too thin. Or wanting to weld up the edges there were perfectly OK for using and often damaging the anvil though problems in the HAZ or decreasing re-sale value though obvious colour differences on the face. (It's like seeing that a used car has a salvage title, you know it's been fixed but you don't know if it was done *right*! And yes there is a proper method of repairing anvils: see the Robb Gunter method of anvil repair for a good one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 G-Man, good looking anvil! One thing you might consider doing to it, is to file, NOT GRIND, the tip of the horn to a nice, rounded, not sharp point, following the lines of the horn. Don't use a grinder on your nice H-B. A file will shape the horn tip so that you can use it to shape small items better. The horn is wrought iron, not hardened like the face, therefore it should be easy to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 On 2/4/2017 at 9:30 PM, arkie said: G-Man, good looking anvil! One thing you might consider doing to it, is to file, NOT GRIND, the tip of the horn to a nice, rounded, not sharp point, following the lines of the horn. Don't use a grinder on your nice H-B. A file will shape the horn tip so that you can use it to shape small items better. The horn is wrought iron, not hardened like the face, therefore it should be easy to work. Good point (pun intended)....a file it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.