Noah Thomas Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 My neighbor has a GE 125 lb Farrier's anvil he uses for lawn ornament. I've talked to him about rescuing it for use, and he said I could have it for $250. I finally looked at it close up and it still has the casting seams and appears to be never used. He said his father found it buried in a field up in Temecula CA. I'm trying to figure out why it was never fettled and if it's worth $250, or if it's going to be too much of a headache. Would it have been hardened before being Blancharded? Or is hardening done after surfacing? Why would this unfinished anvil be randomly in a horse field??!! Any advice would be appreciated!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Ball bearing test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anachronist58 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Ball bearing test. I have run across two instances recently wherein the (discontinued) anvils showed themselves to be maybe a bit soft. Good price though IF it passes the rebound test. Robert Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Happy New Year, Not all good anvils are hardened, some are work hardened. No Work=Not Harder than when it was New. Treat them all with Care, they will respect you for it. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 I would not call any anvil that starts out it's use life no harder than "as cast" as "good". To me that's like saying not all good cars have an engine(motor, etc) you have to build one yourself. There are anvils with a fairly soft face that will improve with workhardening; In general I consider them "lower tier" anvils compared to the ones that will toss the hammer back in you face from the git go. Of course this is my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.C. Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Noah...quick clarification... Is the casting seam on THE FACE of the anvil, or running down below the horn/heel? GE made some good anvils, especially the "Daniels design" farriers anvil. Pics are always helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Thomas Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 On 1/10/2017 at 10:34 AM, D.C. said: Noah...quick clarification... Is the casting seam on THE FACE of the anvil, or running down below the horn/heel? GE made some good anvils, especially the "Daniels design" farriers anvil. Pics are always helpful. The seam is right down the entire length of the top, from heal to horn. The design of the anvil is still made today, just GE has JHM make it. The attached image is of a new one exactly like the one I'm looking into. It's cast steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Thomas Posted April 1, 2017 Author Share Posted April 1, 2017 On 1/10/2017 at 10:34 AM, D.C. said: Noah...quick clarification... Is the casting seam on THE FACE of the anvil, or running down below the horn/heel? GE made some good anvils, especially the "Daniels design" farriers anvil. Pics are always helpful. So I actually spoke to GE forge directly. I was worried the anvil might be ductile iron because anvil brand has recently been using the GE pattern and casting them in CDI. The owner of GE said they haven't made the anvil in a long time, but that in the 70's his job was to grind the horns after casting!! He said that it's 4130 CEO-moly!! So now I get to harden the thing!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 *WOOT*! Sometimes you luck out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonBH Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Hey, I would like to know how you made out with heat treat on this anvil. I am the category manager for castings and forging for a large OEM. I was visiting a steel foundry in Milwaukee and came across a anvil casting on their overs pile....slated for scrapping. I worked it out to get the anvil and had it shipped back to South Carolina. Raw casting, so I am going tomorrow to have the face milled and ready for heat treat. While I know its steel, I don't know the exact material. I know the alloys this foundry pours mostly, but I don't think they will tell me the chemistry since that knowledge is IP of the people they originally poured it for....just like I would expect them to not tell anyone the material of the parts they make for me. So I have not even asked, beside, they did me the solid giving it to me and even blasted it first. I just had to have it shipped home. BTW, it is 200 lb, actual 205 lbs. So after machining I have to heat treat and temper myself, and I am working out how to do this in my back yard. As long as it is not a high alloy or special alloy, I believe it will be straight forward and manageable with careful planning and some measures to monitor the temperature. As it is right now, as a raw casting it is pretty soft. So I am curious if you did this and how did you manage the set up to heat, control the heat and quench. I will water quench, but considering Brine quench both with aggressive agitation. See the pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 What did the spark test show? It's especially helpful if you have a set of test pieces of known alloy to compare it with. How aggressive is your aggressive agitation? OEM anvil makes tended to use an elevated watertank with a flume to get the force to pound through the steam jacket on their shallow hardening steels---making their own waterfall. Charles McRaven mentions using the high pressure hose of a local volunteer fire department. What you will need will depend on the alloy. If you know what alloy different parts they make are cast from you could use such parts as the test comparison items... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonBH Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Well I have not sparked tested and would consider that vague at best. I did contact the anvil manufacture to see if they will tell me the material since I do not think these anvils are in production any longer...which is how I was able to get this casting....so we will see. For agitation, plan is to use an irrigation pump, roughly 100GPM. Actually not sure on that yet, a friend who is a farmer offered its use, albeit I have not laid eyes on it and he is not sure of its specs. He would have to go "dig it up". He states he can pump down a 1000 gallon take in less than 10 mins so I am guessing 100GPM. I will need to get it and test it to make sure it up to the task first. Mid operation failure would be a disaster. So the plan is just closed loop recirculating the water or brine and point the discharge hose directly at the anvil face from the bottom of the tank as the anvil will be submerged face down. that is another reason for considering the Brine solution to increase boiling point and reduce steam. I do have concerns of the corners of the hardie hole being stress risers and possible point for cracks. So I think I will try to radius those a bit. Same for the transition to the cut table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 And you don't consider answers from random people on the internet to be "vague"? If you have known samples of the alloys they cast and you check against the anvil you should be able to narrow it down pretty close. Are you going to ask them for a suggested heat treat even if they won't share the alloy? Know anybody with an x ray diffraction gun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonBH Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Really was not looking for answers as what to do,....was asking the person who posted how they went about the heat treat process and how what they may have learned. In terms construction of the fire, how they built their quench tank and so on. The mechanics of the operation, not the specifications of the controls. Thinking they may have thought of something that I did not. Possible they worked through a problem such as controlling the fire or maintain even heat that I am still working out on a larger scale. So to answer your question, I would not have access to parts to spark test against. I live in South Carolina and they are in Milwaukee. Only parts they make that I know the alloys are the parts they make for me, but those parts go from foundry to machine shop and out to a customer or too one of our warehouses as finished parts. Don't think anyone would like me taking a grinder to any of them. I do understand your point to compare against known alloys, just not really an option which you didn't know that. Now I plan on asking the foundry if they will at least confirm it is a basic carbon steel, or a high alloy requiring special treatment. Maybe they will flat tell me they type and grade, don't know and out of respect I have not asked. I have also asked the OEM of the finished anvil, they are a local tool company also in Milwaukee. Still waiting on a reply. I am betting on one of the many variation of A148. But they go from a grade 80/40 to 165/150. I believe someone will tell me something, I mean its an anvil.... I have only started this process and find the materials needed....worse case is I can get take off a sample from the foot and send for spectrograph and chemical analysis. I do not think it will come to that but I will consider it if I have to....and really don't know what that would cost me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Some scrap yards have hand held XRF guns; but that won't get you the carbon content, (and might give it a shot for a sixpack.) However if you have the major alloy elements then the spark test should give you low, medium, high; or weird alloy don't touch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Easy enough to google anvil makers in Milwaulkee, but they were tight lipped on the descriptions on-line, and you have already reached out to them. Fontanini and Nimba both make theirs out of AISI/SAE 8640, which would be a strong possibility for yours as well. Emersons are 4140. Both fall within the ASTM A148 range of chemistry. Would they tell you how they do it? Maybe. Or they may just have theirs induction hardened commercially. Rhino now uses an air hardening chrome-nickel-molybdenum-manganese alloy. Old World just states high carbon-manganese alloy. Peddinghaus and Kanka are drop forge C45. Others are even more vague. No help there. Submerging just the face down in a 1000 gallon tank with a 100gpm pump shooting straight up may or may not be enough to break the vapor blanket and chill the center of the face equally with the edges. The pump is going to have to run for an hour or so while the body cools down. Let us know how it turns out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonBH Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Thanks Thomas and John. After trying to mill it today, I will really need to try and find out what this is. Was trying to take a heavy cut on the cut table and suffice it did not respond well, at least not with the tooling on hand. Never end tried to mill the face. To be fair this is a fab shop dealing with mostly A36 plate and tubing. While the mill was way more than enough machine, their tool options were very limited. it was a friend trying to do it as a favor...so I had no cost tied up. I think I will take it to a local shop for surface grinding to be safe. There are plenty around who resurface heads and such. I don't know but I am sure it is a pretty high alloy. We did grind a bit on it and sparks when looking at test charts resemble something in the 43xx range....but admittedly I am no expert in spark test and I looking at the charts and judging by memory. Should have taken a video. So I am biting the bullet and just asking the foundry (really just should have done that from the beginning...making this hard on myself), I am rather sure they will tell me if they are able. I just wanted to avoid that simply out of professional curtesy. But worst that can happen is they will say they can not say....Beside, I spend a lot of money there. So I really did not plan to highjack this thread, I was just really wanting to know how the original poster made out with theirs, it just grew from there. Honestly I was excited to find someone in the same boat as me, that is having a raw casting to work with. Most folks are making one or reconditioning an old piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonBH Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Ok, now I know.....anvil is made from 8640 Normalized and tempered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Nit picking, I know. Normalized, reheated, QUENCHED and tempered? By what methods? Inquiring minds want to know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Check the bounce with the ball bearing test---you may be good to go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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