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I Forge Iron

The evolution of tool making!


Mark Ling

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Thank you all for your concerns. With larger stuff which is what I tend to do more, I swing my 3.5lb, and can swing it for about 11 hours (that's the longest time I have forged straight). For smaller steel, such as 1/4" round I swing a smaller hammer such as a 2lb hammer. I will try and get a video of me forging, maybe next weekend. Almost everything we did to make the hammer was done with a striker. I swing a 12 lb sledge, now thought to drive the drift I use my 4lb hand hammer.

When drawing out a 10inch taper on a piece of 1 1/4" axle,  or forging a 1lb hammer with nothing but a hand hammer, or making pattern welded steel where the billet weighs 2 1/2lbs, or forging a 2lb axe with nothing but a hand hammer, a heavy hammer is needed if you want to get it done in a timely manner and be efficient. Now, making s hooks and bottle openers, sure, a lighter hammer is fine. Like, if I use my 3.5lb hammer on a piece of 1/4" round, I have to be careful not to hit it too hard. Also, when using a heavier hammer on lighter stock, you can hold the hammer closer up, and have more control over it.

It may almost sound like I'm arguing with ya'll, but I'm not meaning to. Just trying to provide some more information.

Please, please, please, realize that none of what I wrote above is scientific, or from a master smith, Just my personal experience.

Today I forged a large bottom fuller.

                                                                                                                            Littleblacksmith

 

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1 hour ago, SJS said:

I have seen some very good blacksmiths demonstrate who seem to never pick up anything other than their favorite 2# hammer. With the right technique you can move a ton of metal. Part of the trick is to ALWAYS let the hammer do the work!  All of it!  No trying to help the hammer out by PUSHING it deeper into the metal. You get the hammer up, you put it on the fast track heading down, and then you're just there for guidance.   Energy is Mass x V2. Velocity tends to be more important, because you get more energy out of your blow if it is faster...  Mass gives you Inertia, which carries the hammer deeper into the steel when you are working.  So light hammers tend to upset the surface of thicker steels, without moving the core. Heavier hammers tend to be able to move the core of what you are working. One of the mistakes that a lot of people make when they use a small hammer is Driving it home, gripping too hard and trying to squeeze extra work out of the hammer. Lift it high, swing it fast, repeat as necessary... Generally a 2# hammer will get the same amount of work done as a 4#, you just hit it more often.  Fatigue messes with you as you are trying to swing a heavy hammer too fast, too long. You start to compensate, your form shifts, and your technique gets sloppy.  You could be doing everything right, you might be using your 3.5# hammer like a pro? I can't tell, but I know what I have done to myself, and can provide a cautionary tale.  Godly wisdom is doing things God's way. Worldly wisdom is learning from someone else's mistakes without having to make them yourself...  Self evaluation, and good judgement are priceless (good judgement normally comes from actually learning from the consequences of poor judgement...)  Always keep an eye on your technique, your accuracy and your speed, when any one of them starts to falter switch to a lighter hammer or take a little rest, and refocus...  I have watched YouTube videos of guys striking, and to my eye it is painfully obvious that they are swinging the biggest hammer that they can "use", I put use in quotes because if they reduced the weight of the hammer by a bunch they could use it faster (with more energy!!!) and more accurately.  They would have gotten the work done faster with a lighter set of hammers.  But I understand being hyped up on testosterone, I have picked up 300# and 500# anvils, but I am old enough and wise enough to no longer recommend such things;-) But you better not bet me that "if you can pick that up you can have it..."

As you get stronger, and you build muscle memory, you can and should learn how to use a heavier hammer (4-8# hand hammer>)  Since you seem to be getting the tool making bug, you will need to be able to swing a bigger hammer to drive punches, upset faces, and fuller cheeks. I just want you to suceed, meaning be able to play with the nice toys you make for a long, long time. You have to take care of anything you would like to keep, eyes, ears, wrists, shoulders, elbows, tendons...

I agree with technique is a big part of swinging hammer. Just watch a beginning smith. He will not have the same skill in just swinging the hammer as someone who has been forging for a year+. When you start, a 2 pound hammer or a 2.5 is a GREAT place to start. Let your muscles develop. But don't feel like that's the only weight you can use. If you use the edge of the rounding face on a smaller rounding hammer and use the edge of the anvil you will move steel than using, say a 3 or 4 pound cross pein on the flat of the anvil face. When using larger hammers, you will not be able to swing as fast or as long as using a smaller hammer, it's true, and it's sad sometimes. But In MY opinion, using a bigger hammer correctly is about two things.

1. Staying relaxed. Don't grip too hard, Just as you said. You will end up sloppy. This one also goes hand in hand with my next point.

2. Work pace. Making your blows count is HUGE. This video shows this well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BLlGLnSn0E . Not just swinging a hammer. If you slow down just a little bit, Planning out your next heat by putting your tools on the anvil that you will use in the next heat. Plus less mishaps will happen in the shop. 

They're both simple. Using these two thing, personally, I can swing larger hammer for longer than I "should". And working the right hammer for the job is key too. I'm not going to forge a leaf from 3/8s round with a 5 pound rounding hammer. And I'm not going to forge 1.5 inch 4340 with a 2 pound hammer.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

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Thank you! You summed up what I was trying to say, and worded it much better!

Yes, staying relaxed is very important-

One thing that I tell people, is try talking while you are forging. If you can't carry on a conversation due to being out of breath, than you either have too heavy of a hammer or the wrong technique.

I had seen that video, it's pretty good. I would say that I am fairly confident with drawing out on the far side of the anvil. 

Another thing I might mention, because I don't think that I did previously, but just wanted to say that I have been doing this for about 2 1/2 years, forging every weekend with at least 8 hour days, and so I'm not a complete noob, but still am very much a beginner.

Like I said, I will try and get some footage of me drawing out a taper on 3/4" round mild steel.

                                                                                                                                  Littleblacksmith

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Aha! I had this video in mind be couldn't find it! This was one of the first blacksmithing videos I ever watched. This is going in my playlist of stuff to learn from.

Another thing i like to do when using a large hammer, is tapping. It's gives your arm a short break during the heat. Needing to tap too much is a sign, that you/I have poor form, Which I really like that video because Alec doesn't tap too often.

I think Alec shows very well how to stay relaxed and to be able to work as long as you can. Weather it's at the power hammer, anvil, grinder, striking anvil, etc.

This is a video I like too.  

 

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Right, right, although tapping is important, as it gives you a chance to look at the steel, and figure out what to do next. I understand what you mean though.

Here is a video of young Alec! tap, tap, tap....

                                                                                                                          Littleblacksmith

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On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 2:16 AM, gote said:

Little blacksmith. Please I am not disagreeing with you but have you tried to have the anvil higher?

The last video wasn't of me, but was of Alec steel about 7ish years ago maybe. If that was what the last question was referring to?

                                                                                                           Littleblacksmith

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Your fine, don't worry about it. What ever it's worth, my name is Mark L.

Here is a video my dad shot of me today. As I mentioned in the video, I'm using a 3.5 rounding hammer, on 3/4" round mild steel. My dad ended up videoing more of the anvil than my "hammer technique". Sorry about that, I had other things to do, and decided not to shoot it again.

  Littleblacksmith

 

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Lookin' good, lbs. 

Re: anvil height. As I understand it, the theory here is that the lower anvil means a longer distance for the hammer to accelerate through (i.e., gravity is your friend). To get the hammer back up, the smith pushes up with their large core muscles,  unfolding like a hinge. 

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Thanks for posting that mark, that explains alot of what is wrong with my hammer technique.

I struggle with another problem. I'm ambidextrous so my mind constantly wants to switch hands. Sounds silly but, it's like I want to switch from South paw to a right hander constantly during a heat. 

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5 hours ago, JHCC said:

Lookin' good, lbs. 

Re: anvil height. As I understand it, the theory here is that the lower anvil means a longer distance for the hammer to accelerate through (i.e., gravity is your friend). To get the hammer back up, the smith pushes up with their large core muscles,  unfolding like a hinge. 

The problem with the low anvil is that you end up working with a bent back and that is not good for you. You want to work with a stance that is natural and comfortable. If you work with a bad stance you will end up with damage to your body.

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3 hours ago, gote said:

The problem with the low anvil is that you end up working with a bent back and that is not good for you. You want to work with a stance that is natural and comfortable. If you work with a bad stance you will end up with damage to your body.

Oh, I quite agree, and my own anvil is higher than shown here (although my portable hole is significantly lower than that, for striking). I'm just presenting my understanding of the low position's ostensible justification.

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9 hours ago, JHCC said:

Re: anvil height. As I understand it, the theory here is that the lower anvil means a longer distance for the hammer to accelerate through (i.e., gravity is your friend). To get the hammer back up, the smith pushes up with their large core muscles,  unfolding like a hinge. 

Thank you! yeah, I began explaining it and then...well...I'm not sure what happened.

9 hours ago, EJRailRoadTrack said:

Nice demo! Looks great. I love when the steel lights up on the end. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside ^_^

Thank you! I enjoy it too! Less surface area contact, means not only you can do more work in less time and energy, but also that the steel stays hotter longer.

8 hours ago, Millhand said:

Thanks for posting that mark, that explains alot of what is wrong with my hammer technique.

No problem! Glad I could help!

3 hours ago, gote said:

The problem with the low anvil is that you end up working with a bent back and that is not good for you. You want to work with a stance that is natural and comfortable. If you work with a bad stance you will end up with damage to your body.

Yeah, I probably could have it an inch or two higher, but the only problem is that I do a large variety of stuff. One moment I'll be forging 13/4" round, and the next I'll be forging a coat hook out of 1/4". I find though that at the end of the day I feel fine. If  When I get another anvil, Will probably have it low, and have this one higher up.

                                                                                                                       Littleblacksmith

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AMEN to what Thomas said... ;-)

LB/Mark that doesn't look like a technique you will be able to employ when your 60 to me... There are lots of things that you can get away with while you are young and resilient, but will make you old and crunchy faster. I can't aurgue with your results, you did a fine job tapering that bar out.  My question is such a technique truly sustainable?  I don't rememeber Brian Brazeal using his whole body to generate enough power to do the work? Admitedly Alec Steele might use more of his body like what you are doing... But to my point Alec has a smaller frame than Brian does.  Hopefully you have great genetics and will grow to be a strapping young man who looks like what people think a blacksmith should look like.  If you look at pictures of Brent Bailey when he demoed the first time at an ABANA conference he was a skinny whip of a kid, now he looks like he has been body building...  If you learn to swing a smaller hammer, and develop your arm and to a lesser extent your body, you won't end up wearing out your body too quickly being forced to use it to move the larger hammer. Patience, it isn't fun, it isn't sexy, but it is still a virtue.  People who can be patience and delay gratification are more successful in general than the average.  I could be wrong...  You might stay a little whip of a man, who is super athletic and can forge like that when your old? You might be really relaxed and doing everything else right, you just had to do a little inovating because of your small stature and big asperations. But that would wear me out ;-)  I know you respect Brian a lot, you might ask him?  I tried to find a YouTube video of Brian's hand hammer technique where you could see the rest of his body, and couldn't?  I've seen Brian at conferences probably 10 times over the years, and I don't remember him moving that much when he forged...  Mark your punching stuff out way above your weight class, I just don't want you to get beat up doing it. 

On anvil height, traditionally anvils for Heavy work were set lower, for striking top tools, and larger work. Which works great for striking top tools, and larger work... You need to watch your ergonomics, when you are doing flat work on the face of the anvil though. There is always a sweet spot, where the anvil is at just the right height for the face of the hammer at the end of your normal stroke. Anvil height is very finicy, and its hard sometimes to find that sweet spot. When the anvil is set too low you have to crouch, or bend over more, or extend more, or it changes the angle of your impact. Compensating tends to cramp your style, and your body, weither the anvil is too low, or too high.  With a low anvil you need to trust your technique and not feel the need to get your face close enough to see just what is going on, otherwise it is a strain on your back. WIth the anvil set too high you have to bunch up your arm and your shoulder, and again its not easy on your back...  If you can afford it, it is really nice to have multiple anvils set up in the shop at different heights.  A nice big heavy anvil set low for heavy work, or with a striker, and another anvil set higher for lighter work... When my main anvil is riding around in my truck, its way too high, on my portably farrier's anvil stand its just a little too high, and my shop anvil is set just a bit low for heavier work.  The anvil never being right at that sweet spot, does bother my back a bit... I should do something about that...

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I would have approached that tapering job very differently. I would get at it with a cross peen first, then flip the hammer around and use the flat face to work the ridges down, then repeat until done. Either that or over the far edge to use it as a fuller. The same effort exerted, but when concentrated in a smaller area it does more work. 

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4 hours ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

Either that or over the far edge to use it as a fuller

I was! lol. I would never use the cross pein to draw out steel laterally. way too much contact, and also drawing out on the far edge of the anvil is actually a very clean and efficient way of forging if done correctly.

18 hours ago, SJS said:

I don't rememeber Brian Brazeal using his whole body to generate enough power to do the work?

I could do it standing straight up, just swinging my arm and moving nothing else. My thought behind it, was that by distributing the force throughout your body, not just your arm, shoulder, etc., but your whole body, that it would make it easier, and for me, I noticed that it did.  I'll use an analogy that Alec uses when teaching his students.

Imagine someone coming up to you, handing you a tennis ball, and telling you that for every foot that you can bounce it in one throw, that he will give you $30. Now, you're not going to stand there, and just move your arm up, and throw the tennis ball down. Well, that is if you want to bounce it the highest you can, and in return get more $$. What you will probably do, is spread your legs a little, raise up onto your tippy toes, lift your arm as high as it will go, and bring it down. But, as you bring it down, you will not only be lowering your arm. You will be moving you feet down back flat on the ground, and bring your upper body down as you swing your arm down. 

For swinging sledges, Alec uses the analogy of bouncing a basketball; two hands.

So, this is just my thoughts, please, please, please, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure that will happen though!

                                                                                                                                      Littleblacksmith

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Sorry it has taken a bit to get back to this thread, I was on the road, and couldn't remember my password, and my stupid phone forgot it too, and couldn't remember the password to the old email account that my IFI account is linked too... lol

Mark my concern with the style you have developed is that you will wear your back out. What I see is that for you to be able to work as ambitiously as you would like, you have to push, or exceed, what your young body is capable of.  I have no idea how to teach a smaller person how to work larger stock by hand, without teaching them to build their hammer muscles up over time.  When I teach, I ALWAYS encouraged younger and smaller people who were interested in learning to size their projects to their physical prowess, and or to use power tools.  I prefer to teach full grown men who do hard physical work, to start slower than they think they can. It is always safer to ramp up to bigger projects, by building your skill and your strength with smaller ones over time.  I remember seeing many of the early videos from the Young Smith's International working, and they looked young and ambitious.  They were working really hard, it looked like they were streching... To my eye they did not at the time look particularly skilled, graceful or efficient, but the work they produced was good so who am I to judge.;-)  The latest vids from Alec Steele look great.  He has obviously polished his skills, and imporved his efficiency greatly, and he is still super enthusiastic. I applaud his successes, and yours and Matti's as well.  You are producing good quility work, and it shows good judgement, and proper finishing skills. I enjoy your youth and enthusiasium, but I worry that how you are working will end up hurting you in the long run.  Always the trick in blacksmithing is to work smarter and not harder, to find tools and techniques to help make the work easier, safer, and more successful.  Ultimately it is still a VERY physical skill, unless you are working with power hammers and presses.  Neccessity is the mother of invention

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I'd say listen to the old fellers, they know a thing or two. I'm only in my early-mid thirties, but once you cross that thirty line your body just doesn't do the same things it did in your twenties without complaint. I'm a small guy myself. I'm 5'9" and I only weigh 130lbs if I'm soaking wet :P I'm new to this blacksmithing thing, but I did plenty of other things in my younger years where I used some "full body techniques" to compensate for my lack of size. Like you I often found a way to not be held back by size, but my back and knees now tell me I should have maybe been more accepting of my own physical limitations. At this point not even using my back to throw weight around like you are, just getting caught up in what I'm working on and bending over too long to see closer while light hammering means my back will complain mightily for the next day or two.

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 10:52 PM, SJS said:

Sorry it has taken a bit to get back to this thread, I was on the road, and couldn't remember my password, and my stupid phone forgot it too, and couldn't remember the password to the old email account that my IFI account is linked too... lol

No it's fine, don't worry. I was just worried that I had gotten on the wrong side of you and that you were done with me! Thank you for deciding that I'm worth it, I'm very humbled.

Ok, so we have gone over what NOT to do, so what is the proper way? I started using some smaller hammers today, because I was using smaller stock (under 1/2"). Now, with larger steel over 5/8", I think I will use a larger hammer. Would it be fine to use a larger hammer sometimes, just not all the time? When will I be at the point when I can use "larger" hammers?

Something really, really sad happened today. I was using my small rounding hammer that I made, and I looked at the faces to see how they were holding up. I was shocked to see 2 cracks on the flat die of the hammer! They are in the center, and so it's not like they started from a corner, or other sharp edge. I did not see them after heat treating, and I'm almost a 100% sure they weren't their after heat treating. Must have happened during use. I event tempered it softer than I thought I should, to a Dark, Dark brown.

                                                                                                                              Littleblacksmith

 

 

 

 

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