Ribbon Burner Forge

[Backhertz]

First attempt of building a forge.  Was going to make a simple venturi burner until I saw a ribbon burner  back in March used by someone much smarter than me.  Except for the ease of constructing a venturi burner, don’t understand the reason ribbon burners are not more popular.   These burners look to be more efficient & have a reducing atmosphere- a couple of really good things in my humble opinion.

 The burner was relatively easy to make from a 3” square tube 3/16” thick.  It's almost 7” long with a 5 1/2” cut out in the bottom.  I have no idea what peanut butter consistency is with Mizzou as it is nothing like peanut butter unless it’s the nutty kind.  Surprisingly, it came out.  Rapping the form to dislodge air resulted in no air bubbles, but dislodged a few crayons- no big deal.  

Used two 1” layers of insulation in the 20# propane tank.  The tank is gets very warm- see also hot.  Perhaps thicker insulation should be used, or more refractory?  Made a large square opening on the front of the tank & a smaller on the back.  Should the front and back be the same size?  

Having a good blower seems to be essential, but they’re expensive.  A bounce house blower was recommended when I asked where I might locate a reasonable cost blower.    I scored a used one off Amazon for $50.   My homemade manometer (two 24” tubes with about a quart of water) measured 7.5” of water column.  Don’t try testing a central vac motor pressure in your kitchen.  I did & learned it produces much more than 48” of water column- all the water immediately blew out of the tubes & ended up on the ceiling in about the time it took for me to look up....  

Only have a single 1/16” gas hole in brass fitting in the 2” elbow seen in pic 2508.  Wondering if  three 1/16” holes should be used?   My burner baffle has 5/16” holes.

Am open to any suggestions.  If anyone has links to what a good ribbon burner fire should look like, feel free to share- thanks in advance.

 

Burner inserted in forge prior to insulating.

Using .5 psi gas below.  

[Frosty]

Is that the John Emerling's design published in the Hammer's Blow a few years ago? Wayne Coe has John's plans posted on his web site.

Recently I made a naturally aspirated version I called the NARB (Naturally Aspirated Ribbon Burner). John's design requires a blower with high static pressure but mainly because it has so few ports.

Naturally Aspirated induction devices burners don't generate much static pressure so I increased the # of ports till I found the balance between enough to be driven by a jet ejector inducer and not so many it back fired into the plenum. I turned the supply fitting 90* so the air fuel mix wasn't being driven straight into the ports and was able to do away with the diffuser completely.

The first pic shows the flames running about 4psi.

The second shows the top of the forge and how the T burner type inducers are mounted to the plenums. this configuration gets the air intake ports a long way from the exhaust plume from the forge opening. "Dragon's breath." The general consensus is the the really large orange exhaust plume probably isn't un-burned fuel but burning calcium from the refractory.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Both nice builds..   When I fully mature I'll get involved in making a ribbon gas forge.. 

 

Frosty,  from the looks in the last picture it looks like 2 main streams per burner?????  How many ports did you put in? 

Backhertz:   the crayons are brilliant.. 

[WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith]

Nice build.  Ribbon Burners do take some more work than NA burners initially, however, the end

result is far superior to regular NA burners.

I commend Frosty, Mikey and John Emmerling for the work and information that they provide us.

Thank you.

[ede]

5 hours ago, WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith.c said:

Ribbon Burners do take some more work than NA burners initially, however, the end

result is far superior to regular NA burners.

 

What is far superior to you, Wayne, may not be superior to everyone else's needs.   Form follows function.  Not everyone may want to use electricity to power a forge, or they may want to use their burner as a torch.  

While I have no doubt of the merits of the Ribbon Burners you speak so highly of, I think it's a disservice to proclaim one tool technology the victor over another as this is how tool wars start.  

[Backhertz]

Great pics & nice shop, Frosty.  

Thanks Wayne for the video sharing John Emmerling’s PDF & your web site.  Also used Chris Price’s You Tube video on  building a forge.  The collective wisdom of this forum is priceless as is the help others have willingly provided.  First time I ever welded or used a MIG welder- learned from You Tube videos. 

Secured the main blower to the stand last night & tuned the gas/air.  A  brass orifice drilled to 1/16” in the reducing elbow seems to be more than adequate.   It came with the Bayou Classic regulator for their Bayou cooker.  

Used a 2” reducing elbow tee from Fastenal.  Was supposed to be a 2" x 1/2” x 2” standard reducing tee (466128) but Fastenal sent a reducing  elbow which I think is better.  I imagine it’s 6 of one, half a dozen of another.   

Waiting on electrical parts- a pressure switch & a gas solenoid.   Using 12 volts DC rather than 115 volt AC.   

Last night a piece of rebar heated up in less than a couple minutes- so did the brick...   Think I need an additional blower. 

 

 

 

 

[Frosty]

On 11/12/2016 at 6:14 AM, jlpservicesinc said:

Both nice builds..   When I fully mature I'll get involved in making a ribbon gas forge.. 

 

Frosty,  from the looks in the last picture it looks like 2 main streams per burner?????  How many ports did you put in? 

Backhertz:   the crayons are brilliant.. 

Using a 3/4 T for induction, entering the plenum at 90* to the ports it worked best with 19 ports (crayons) in 3 rows over in a 2" x  7" block. I doubt the pattern of the ports effects the stability of the burner but I haven't experimented with different port configurations. One of the guys wants to build a round button configuration about 4" dia. One of these days we'll see.

This "ribbon" multi port is stable between <1 - >20 psi. the full range, peg to peg, of my 0-20 psi regulator and pressure gauge.

As to superiority between NA vs. gun burners both have advantages and both have disadvantages. All things being equal it's just the manifestation of the humanity old "Ford, Chevy" argument. Homo habilis probably disagreed about the gray flint vs. the white flint too. Personal taste and needs.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

5 hours ago, Frosty said:

Using a 3/4 T for induction, entering the plenum at 90* to the ports it worked best with 19 ports (crayons) in 3 rows over in a 2" x  7" block. I doubt the pattern of the ports effects the stability of the burner but I haven't experimented with different port configurations. One of the guys wants to build a round button configuration about 4" dia. One of these days we'll see.

This "ribbon" multi port is stable between <1 - >20 psi. the full range, peg to peg, of my 0-20 psi regulator and pressure gauge.

As to superiority between NA vs. gun burners both have advantages and both have disadvantages. All things being equal it's just the manifestation of the humanity old "Ford, Chevy" argument. Homo habilis probably disagreed about the gray flint vs. the white flint too. Personal taste and needs.

Frosty The Lucky.

Thanks for the reply.. I have an old Mankel forced air gas forge..  Back in the day it was maybe the best forge around and would reach welding temps but that was bck in the 90's..   Might have to dig it out again..

[Backhertz]

My blacksmithing experience is limited.  Retired & needed a hobby.  Wanted to be a woodworker until started learning what makes for a good cutting tool.  Got interested in steel & forgot about wood.   Been very fortunate in spending time with others whom some of you may have heard of.   They’ve been doing what they do for a very long time.   

Louie Mills, aka Yasutomo, is a traditional Japanese smith.  He lives on a farm in Michigan.  Louie has plenty of trees, so he makes his own charcoal & also makes his own simple carbon steel.  Spent 9 days with him in 2013 doing his thing using a fuigo with his right arm while stoking the coal with his left.  Unlike most, Louie doesn’t  own or use a belt grinder, but a sen followed by files and sandpaper.  

Al Pendray & Ric Furrer make what’s known as wootz- a crucible steel.  Al can do things like tell the temp of steel in the daylight by looking at it- something his farrier father taught him while most people do it in the dark.  Ric is known for the Viking sword featured on a Nova special.  

Al uses gas & Ric uses coke for making wootz.  Ric also uses a propane in his shop, as does Howard Clark.  I’ve taken several classes with them both.  These guys can do things with steel using a power hammer that amaze me.  

In March, spent time with Daryl Meier.  He showed me what looked like a brick with a lot of holes in it & then turned his forge on.   I planned to make a venturi burner until I saw Daryl’s setup.  It’s my understanding that glass makers use ribbon burners as well.

Come to the conclusion there is no one right way to work with steel, but up to the smith to go with what they know & use what they have.  Money is a driving factor which is a reason Louie makes his own charcoal and steel.  No one told me this what I need to do this or there is only one way to that.  I’m a graduate of the Whatever It Takes school. 

Making the ribbon burner was easy- even for me with no welding experience.  Made a few errors like forgetting to remove the paper off the crayons, nothing show stopping.  After watching Wayne’s video the first time, had planned to make a 10” burner until I bought a used propane tank & held the 10” square tube up to the tank.   Realized, back to the drawing board.   Watched Wayne’s video again & reread John Emmerling’s paper which kept me on point.

Yesterday,  learned the central vac motor (Lamb 117507)  that blew the water out of my homemade manometer tubes actually produces 134.1” water column pressure.  Holy skata, Batman.  Wasn’t sure if my bounce house blower had all the pressure needed at 7.5” WC, so I gave it a try.  The output tube fits perfectly inside a 2” PVC pipe.  Does it have pressure? OMG, it has pressure.   

Took a little adjusting to get the ball valve set, but got it going.  Had the interior of the forge glowing red in no time with only .5 to< 1 psi of propane.  Still learning.  Noticed not all the holes of the burner have blue flames- several had no flame.  The flames were about an inch or so from the burner holes.  Some had crayon paper in them still which the powerful motor blew out.   Will check for other blockages.  Used 5/16” holes for the baffle.  Perhaps that was too large.  That’s easily modified.  Can use either the bounce house or the central vac blower/motor.

Looked at the Pine Ridge burners & noted the holes in their ribbon burners appear to be smaller in diameter & there’s lots more of them.  Must be a reason, yes? Noted at the store yesterday some birthday candles are like crayons- not tapered or spiraled and no paper.  Just looking at differences that might improve the next one- if there ever is a next one.  BTW, Walmart brand crayons were only 47 cents a box compared to Crayola.

Still need to learn how to make a reducing atmosphere.  Heated up some rebar for making tongs & noted forging scale on it.   

Comments?  Anybody in NJ- near NJT Exit 5?  

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

Nope I used to live in Holmdel, between 114 and 117 on the GSP but now am in the  New Mexico desert that makes  even the pine barrens look densely populated!