How big of a hammer

[Alan Evans]

8 hours ago, beaudry said:

 I think that after a while  you get to know the strengths and limitations of the machines in your shop and you begin to design your work to take advantage of those capabilities.

Every  hammer that I've run [ not many, aside from my own three ] seem to have a distinct ''personality''  in how they perform.

Maybe this is why I like it so much and forging has such a feeling of being a living process.

I agree with you. I find the subtleties and nuances of what on the face of it is a brutal exercise of power has an horrible fascination! 

With any new tool or process I always tell students to focus on the effect the tool is having rather than the tool itself. With that you can then control how the tool addresses the workpiece and make any adjustments required in a micro seconds, without conscious processing.

That familiarity becomes second nature direct forging on the power hammer, I found you can almost sense the relative volumes of the workpiece from inside it, it really does become an extension or expression of you!

Alan

ps Sorry! Waxing a bit lyrical and going off topic. 

OP have a look at the spec sheets I posted on here for the Massey and Alldays and Onions hammers. That will give you an idea of the section capacities versus the tup weight and motor power required.

You mentioned forging 2" square...if you are doing that now, by hand, I take my hat off to you. If that is the maximum you envisage using in the future then a 50kg (100lb) hammer will cope. The extra authority and versatility of a 240lb or even larger hammer will obviously enable you to work 2" more efficiently. The biggest you can't quite afford is my mantra.

I have 3cwt, 1cwt old style clear space hammers and a 50kg (112lb / 1cwt) direct forging Reiter (pre-courser to the Kuhn) installed. The main difference in their capacity is the length of stroke.

The 1cwt Alldays has a similar weight tup and strike rate to the Reiter but will hit harder because it is accelerating over a longer stroke. It is more versatile because the long stroke allows the use of higher tooling. All things being equal it generates a slightly heavier blow than the Reiter at the same length of the Reiters stroke...The Alldays tup is moving faster, cycling over a longer stroke in the same time, and therefore hits harder. Interestingly, it is single acting and has a smaller motor than the Reiter (4.5kW vs. 5.5kW) but a much heavier gear driven flywheel.

The 3wt has the almost the same sensitivity and can work down to 10mm (³/₈") square but will do every thing much faster than the smaller hammers so it is used the most. The higher strike rate of the smaller hammers, 220 bpm as opposed to the 180 bpm of the 3cwt, obviously has an efficiency advantage when fine forging smaller section.

Alan

[Sanderson Iron]

Okay okay okay.  You fellas are right.  I'm biased.  (And I'm not being sarcastic here.)  I don't like them, and I probably came off a bit strongly in my statements (though every one of them is absolutely 110% honest-to-goodness holy truth).  None of you probably know that my work is very tool focused, so having a machine which is ideal for tooling is something that really appeals to me.  I know that air hammers can be used with tooling (and I don't think I said they cannot be, which certainly would be ludicrous, Mr. JNewman) but the mechanical, with its more varied action, is very well suited for it.  I have had very frustrating experiences with air hammers that don't have control. Their high-speed tappy tappy tap when you only need to push is very annoying and limiting.  I have never experienced that kind of annoyance with a mechanical hammer.  So I'm biased.  

If this were a group in person, I'm sure I'd be well teased by now that (should I say it?) my main hammer is (oh no, I better not) an

air

hammer.

Darn.  I said it.  The difference is, that air hammer is not a self contained, and it's a variable speed machine.  That gives it the low end control that self contained hammers lack.   JNewman just pointed that out about some of the air hammers being made now (not self contained), and that's a big improvement for control.  Because (as I said in an earlier post) the energy is determined by the square of the speed, slowing the speed has a greater influence on the resulting power than anything else you can do.  Self contains don't do that. 

I have tried to spell out the differences between mechanicals and self contained hammers but it got buried in words.  Here is a list:

1. Mechanicals have a very light low end control because they can vary their speed

2. Mechanicals can make pushing strokes

3. Mechanicals can run fast and light as well as slow and light (and everywhere in between)

4. Mechanicals can be adjusted, changing the blow type, to suit the job at hand.

5. Mechanicals require the least horsepower of any type of hammer

6. Mechanicals are quiet to be around (well, other than the pounding sound, which every blacksmith loves)

7. Mechanicals are cheap to work on

8. Mechanicals are safer to use tooling under because the ram actually stops. 

 

Here is what I have heard from the air hammer fellas:

1. Self contained hammers do not need to be adjusted (my interpretation: "can't" be adjusted) 

2. Self contained hammers hit fast when they hit light

Now will someone who just loves those convoluted things (I wish people could see a writer's smile when he says things like that; it'd help with the problem of being taken too strongly) tell us all the other love points of an air hammer?  Pretty please?  All I'm getting here is that you don't have to (and can't) adjust the ram and they hit light and fast.  (Maybe their list of virtues got buried in words too.)  What else about them is so happy and appealing and gives you warm, smiley feelings of love and joy?  We're supposed to be helping Mr. Whereever He Went Millennial Blacksmith Dude choose a hammer.  

Joel the Mechanical Maniac

 

 

 

 

 

[beaudry]

 Mechanical hammers by the nature of their design are translating a circular motion [ the rotating flywheel and crank plate ] into an up and down motion[ the ram in the guides]

Depending on the length and fitting tolerances of the guides that contain the ram, the hammer will always have a slight sideways ''sweeping'' action.

This is most noticeable when drawing or forging down a square or rectangular section . If you are not paying attention this can result in a trapezoid or offset diamond section that is difficult to correct if let to go too long.

I imagine that all  other things being equal, that  an air hammer with the ram cycling straight up and down  does not have this particular problem .

As noted up thread, the size and width of the dies and the surface area coming in contact with the work makes a big difference in the effective force of the blow.

My 100# hammer with narrow drawing dies can draw circles around the 200# with flat dies , but is much less versatile for general forging and unsafe for handheld tooling.

The 25# hammer is usually fitted with combination dies which are almost the best of both worlds and can really do a lot of work within it's capacity

 

[Alan Evans]

Joel, did you actually read what I said about the Massey Clear Space control? What could be safer than the tup mirroring the position of the operating lever for slow, or light, or pushing, or clamping? It is an air press in that mode.

When working light section metal, which is cooling rapidly, why do you claim/consider it an advantage to hit slow rather than just lighter? Many of the German smiths prefer the phenomenal strike rate of the Federhammers over even the direct forging air hammers for lighter sections.

If the stroke of the air hammer enables it to work the same sections and sizes of material as your mechanical but without needing adjustment, what is the advantage of having to stop work and make adjustments just because you can?

My initial response was to your sweeping all self contained hammers are terrible gibe...yes I do realise it was not 100% serious....but it is certainly not 110% true.

Too generalised by half.

There are many mechanical hammers that do not stop, are not adjustable, and certainly do not have the versatility of your Murray. I get the impression that the big Murray is pretty much one of a kind. The largest toggle action mechanical over here is the 100lb Samuel Platt Hercules, there are many traverse and non-traverse Blacker hammers...you can check out one of my earlier posts which refers to Blacker nod.

There are many configurations of self contained air hammers. The Massey Clear Space, the Rolls Royce (Cadillac?) of such hammers has much of the same valve control as the steam hammers that Massey made in earlier days...albeit without the metre (yard) long stroke.

If you compare the capacity of the Massey 2cwt clear space with your Murray, you will not find the Massey wanting.

If you compare your 240lb Murray with an 80 or 100lb direct forging self contained air hammer it will of course out perform it both in direct and indirect forging.

I have punched and drifted under my Alldays hammers...I also managed to do this on the supplied 35kg Sahinler/Gruell/Kuhn/Reiter/SayMak hammer during my demonstration at the 1992 ABANA conference in Saint Luis Obispo. In that instance the clearance height for the drift was made by sliding the bottom pallet over in the dovetail, and a drop on bolster allowed the drift to pass down the end face of the pallet.

But a hammer is not the best tool to carry out press operations...that is best done with a press, why compromise?

Alan

 

[beaudry]

 I should have qualified the statement above that the vertically configured crank actuated hammers have that noticeable sideways sweeping action from translating a circular motion to a vertical up and down motion.

This tendency probably led to the design and popularity of mechanical helves and guided helve hammers, particularly in certain types of production settings.

 

[JHCC]

18 minutes ago, beaudry said:

Depending on the length and fitting tolerances of the guides that contain the ram, the hammer will always have a slight sideways ''sweeping'' action.

Is this also true of guided helve hammers?

EDIT: Oh, I see you clarified while I asking my question. Thanks.

[Alan Evans]

The Blacker works on a parallelogram principle which keeps the hammer face level with the anvil but that has a forward rolling blow.

I still manage to get lozenge/diamond sections now and then on a vertical air hammer if I am not paying sufficient attention...and even sometimes when I am paying too much!

I always thought that the relatively short tup guide length of the toggle hammers contributed to the lozenge effect even more than the rotation...especially after they have been doing it for a few decades and got a bit of slop...slightly off centre placement of the work piece and the top tool would rock over.

Alan

[Sanderson Iron]

3 hours ago, Alan Evans said:

Joel, did you actually read what I said about the Massey Clear Space control? What could be safer than the tup mirroring the position of the operating lever for slow, or light, or pushing, or clamping? It is an air press in that mode.

Yes, I read that.  I've never seen a Massey Hammer.  I'm not sure how many made it to this continent.  Our friend who started this thread is in America, so probably he'll not have the opportunity for your Rolls Royce of air hammers either and will be stuck choosing from the lesser breeds made and sold here.  However, to answer your question, any time an object is held by hydraulic or air, you'd better be careful, because it could fall.  There is still action there, because the ram is moving; at least the rams are on the self contained hammers I've been around.  A mechanical's ram assembly stops--no energy--locked in position or hanging without motion.  That's a mighty big difference. 

I have never noticed a circular motion on a mechanical hammer's ram.  You can get that with any hammer, helve or no.  I've always felt that the rhombus issue is less from a ram's oscillation and more from not placing the work on the dies squarely.  If you can get it somewhere near 2:1 you can get it out of the rhombus trap, but that's not always possible.  Regarding ram guidance, most air hammers are tighter than most mechanicals.  That'd be a plus for them.  However, there's a big variation between hammer designs.  For instance, my Little Giant's ram is fully enclosed by the guides when the dies are together.  The Murray's ram is half out of its guides, but then, it's a cheap spinoff.  Needless to say, the LG is a lot tighter.  The Hackney has thirty inches of ram guidance (that's 76 cm for you friendly Englishmen), because the piston inside the cylinder is part of the system, much like the Chambersburg utility hammers (steam) which have a guided ram with a cylinder above.  I can use the right and left sides of the Hackney's die without any noticeable difference, and single kiss blocks are just fine with that hammer. 

Joel
 

[the iron dwarf]

Sanderson you did state that air hammers cannot use tooling and that you can only use them to smash metal flat, that is incorrect

now for control I prefer using a press with quick change tooling and an ability to set travel in both directions to a few thousandth of an inch, I designed and built the press.

depending on the job the press can do up to 1 stroke per second though it is normally 2 or 3 seconds per stroke, I can draw out or form quite a lot of metal in one heat with this all to a very good tolerance and the repeatably even when doing other things with it in between.

I ought to use it with my induction heater so I can if I wanted form full 20 foot lengths with the press as they pass through

the press can be set in seconds for travel both ways as well as controlled manually on the foot switch bringing it down a small distance at a time, holding it there or raising it a bit.

as long as the work is hot enough the press will go to the set position.

the press will only move if

A it has not reached the setting of the limit switch

AND

B the foot switch is pressed

and it returns automatically to the upper setting unless the foot switch is in the central position

I tried to design the smallest press I could that was versatile, it is about 12 tons and weighs about 70 pounds

yes I have been working with presses since 1976 so I have a little experience with them

 

 

[Jamesrjohnson]

Let me start by admitting I am biased towards Pneumatic hammers.... but my bias was built up over many years of experience.  I was the lead blacksmith at a shop in Ft. Worth where I forged under a 100 lb. Molock.  I built two Kinyon air hammers, one for my personal use and one for the shop I worked for.  I then went into full time blacksmithing in my own shop.  I purchased a Sid S. rebuilt Little Giant 50 lb. hammer.  I did a huge amount of forging with mechanical hammers and they did take my work to another level that was not possible with the hammer and anvil.  I then had an opportunity to purchase a used 33 lb. Anyang hammer, and absolutely fell in love with both the hitting power and control I could get with the self-contained hammer.  I textured hundreds of thin copper peddles with very aggressive dies and with the Anyang hammer could achieve the control with no adjustment.  I could go from thin copper to texturing 1 to 2" material with no adjustment.  I then added an 88 lb. Anyang and later a 165 lb. Anyang to my shop for production work.  I found on production work, I loved the ability to change from thin stock to thick stock with no adjustment.   I also really appreciated the fact that the hammer did not slow down with lighter blows.  When you are forging thin stock, you want a fast light blow to keep the material hot.  Light material cools so fast when you are not moving it.   You can vary the hit power but keep the speed to improve forging productivity and reduce the number of heats. 

Another point was made about the cost to rebuild a self-contained hammer.  Self -contained hammers that were built back in the 1860's are still running today.  They are the one design that is still being manufactured today to run in 24/7 forging shops.  With the heavy duty cast frame, they are built to last (with proper lubrication) for decades with little maintenance.  I have sold hundreds of the Anyang hammers in North America and offer a lifetime warranty on the frame and 5 year on wearing parts.  The only way I can do that is because I have the knowledge that these hammers are built to last.  If you ever had to rebuild a self-contained Anyang hammer, I can guarantee you that is it much cheaper than rebuilding a mechanical hammer.  First, the parts just don't wear out (again with proper lubrication) and if they did, they are not expensive, and are readily available.  My main advice for the originator of this thread is to run the various hammers that you are considering buying.  There are some basic differences between the mechanical and self-contained hammers.  Just because you read it on the internet does not make it a fact... gather your own facts by actually running the hammers and ask a lot of questions.  If you are interested in learning more about self-contained hammers or Anyang hammers, Please check out my video library at: https://www.youtube.com/user/jamesrjohn

There are many reasons why the self contained hammer design has been in production and still is the preferred design for current manufacturers.  If the mechanical hammer was a superior design it would be still in high demand and you would see several large companies building them.  

[JNewman]

My hammer on this continent is a Massey.  I have used the slow single blow only a few times and if I want to squeeze I use a press which is more controllable than a hammer for squeezing and more power. 

Yes air of hydraulics can fail but so can a mechanical hammer.  I don't have a spring bouncing around at face level which has the potential to explode in my face. When I take my foot off the treadle the top die goes up to the top every time and is only moving at most 1/8".  I don't have to joggle the clutch to get it to stop high enough to get my tooling under in the hammer. 

Yes the mechanicals are more energy efficient and more work can be done on repairing or restoring them without machine shop tools. 

That being said I have 2 friends with newer air hammers and all they have ever done to them over 15 years and 25 years of full time blacksmithing is top up the oil.  That and dressing the dies is all I have done to my Massey in the 7-8 years I have had it set up. 

[Sanderson Iron]

On October 28, 2016 at 11:15 PM, Sanderson Iron said:

6 minutes ago, the iron dwarf said:

Sanderson you did state that air hammers cannot use tooling and that you can only use them to smash metal flat, that is incorrect

 

No, Mr. Dwarf, I did not say that.  I said the following:

Don't get a self contained air hammer (Kuhn, Sahindler, Chamberserg, Nazel, bla bla bla).  They're terrible machines.  If all you want to do is smash metal between the dies, without using any tooling, and if you always want to hit it at the same speed, then by all means get an air hammer.  But if you want power and control, with variable, controlled blows, get a vertical mechanical hammer.  The worst designed mechanical is more controllable than the best self contained hammer.   

I'll rephrase that: if you are not a person who is really interested in using tooling under the hammer, or if your work does not require it (like for damascus and so on) an air hammer might be the machine for you; it might even be better than a mechanical.  However, if you're the kind of smith who is really intrigued by using hand held tools, doesn't want to use an anvil, wants to do everything under the hammer, then a mechanical hammer is better because it has more variation to its blows and has broader application because of it.  

Joel

 

 

 

[JNewman]

On 2016-10-30 at 10:23 AM, Sanderson Iron said:

Yes yes, of course.  But it still cycles at the same rate.  It can cycle and not hit, of course, but your blows are always coming at the built in speed of the hammer, and you cannot make one blow last longer than another--like a five second push, for instance.  Pushing is done with a series of taps, and that's very different.  

Another way to think about it is that they are controlled by holding back the energy rather than by reducing the energy.  It'd be like having a car whose engine always runs wide open, and you control the speed only with the clutch.  It'd be pretty touchy, wouldn't it?  Same sort of thing's true of air hammers that always run wide open. 

Isn't a motor on a mechanical hammer always running wide open?  You are then controlling the speed only with the clutch,  That would be pretty touchy wouldn't it. 

[Sanderson Iron]

6 minutes ago, JNewman said:

Isn't a motor on a mechanical hammer always running wide open?  You are then controlling the speed only with the clutch,  That would be pretty touchy wouldn't it. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  That was silly analogy.  The ram and its links slow and stop though--that's what I was trying to point out, and the air hammers are always snuffing up and down at their wide open speed.  Is it easier to arrest the motion of a 300 cpm object or a 3 cpm object?  

Here is another way of looking at it, which Clifton told me years ago.  If you take your arm, lay it on a table and slap it a fast blow with your other hand, you'll feel it on the top of your arm--the skin--but if you press it against the table with your other hand, you'll feel it throughout your arm, clear to the bottom against the table.  That's the difference in affect between a press and a hammer, a fast blow and a slow one.  One works the surface, the other the entire cross section, even if the energy involved is the same.  A mechanical's ability to slow its movement gives it the ability to push and not just slap the surface.  That makes a big difference when you want to push a drift through, bend, straighten and so on.  

26 minutes ago, Jamesrjohnson said:

Self -contained hammers that were built back in the 1860's are still running today. 

Not meaning to argue with you, but what self contained hammer was made in the 1860's?  I understood that the order of hammers was (more or less): trip, steam, atmospheric, mechanical, self contained, with drop mixed in there somewhere. 

I think the reason for the lack of mechanical hammers being made is the cast iron involved and the idea that self contained hammers are new and modern and all that.  They don't offer a hammering package as diverse as the mechanicals do, but since salesman like yourself can take a self contained hammer to a demo and show it more easily (it is after all, self contained) it has made them more popular than if the mechanicals had had the same promotion.  Nothing wrong with selling hammers, don't get me wrong.  Thank you for helping people get them.

Joel

[Jamesrjohnson]

When I was in the Massey factory in Manchester UK, John Nicholson showed me the room where they kept the original ink drawings... the date on one of the drawings I saw had 1868 (I think that was the year) on the drawing... If that hammer is still in existence, John could make replacement parts from that drawing today. 

If you check out one of the video's where I was showing the capability of the 88 lb. Anyang, I was forging 3" round bar.  If you look closely, the hammer was forging the material through the center of the bar.  Another video we did with Bruce Beamish we were forging 2" square bar with flat dies on a little 33 with no fish lipping and on one heat.  The power of the hammer doesn't just come from the ram weight.  It is a combination of ram weight and the air force that delivers a "punch/squeeze" type of blow. 

[the iron dwarf]

43 minutes ago, Sanderson Iron said:

55 minutes ago, the iron dwarf said:

Sanderson you did state that air hammers cannot use tooling and that you can only use them to smash metal flat, that is incorrect

 

No, Mr. Dwarf, I did not say that.  I said the following:

Don't get a self contained air hammer (Kuhn, Sahindler, Chamberserg, Nazel, bla bla bla).  They're terrible machines.  If all you want to do is smash metal between the dies, without using any tooling, and if you always want to hit it at the same speed, then by all means get an air hammer.  But if you want power and control, with variable, controlled blows, get a vertical mechanical hammer.  The worst designed mechanical is more controllable than the best self contained hammer.   

I'll rephrase that: if you are not a person who is really interested in using tooling under the hammer, or if your work does not require it (like for damascus and so on) an air hammer might be the machine for you; it might even be better than a mechanical.  However, if you're the kind of smith who is really intrigued by using hand held tools, doesn't want to use an anvil, wants to do everything under the hammer, then a mechanical hammer is better because it has more variation to its blows and has broader application because of it.  

here are two quotes from you stating that they cannot use tooling

If all you want to do is strike the metal between the hammer's dies (no tooling)

 If all you want to do is smash metal between the dies, without using any tooling,

 

and here is a quote from you from 6 hours ago

 I know that air hammers can be used with tooling (and I don't think I said they cannot be, which certainly would be ludicrous

yes it would be ludicrous, I agree with you

and most people here would know that in most cases the dies are the tooling except when using another type of tooling between the dies

 

so your earlier quotes you admit were ludicrous in your later post where you state the opposite

[beaudry]

There's no way a crank actuated hammer cannot have a slight sideways sweeping action as the ram starts it's upward travel.

Following the circular path of the crank plate , its moving to the side  until it reaches top dead center and then it moves to the other side as it's coming down.The ram guides keep this sideways motion to a minimum, but it is still there  . To eliminate it entirely , the guides would be have to be so tight the ram could not move.

A hammer that is not set up with the path of the ram dead plumb will have the same problem caused by the constant pull of gravity.

This might be worse in an air hammer with that long piston hanging down. Over time that slight but steady pull will likely cause uneven wear in the guide parts and seals, making the problem worse.

We're talking very small increments of angle here ,but with the speed and falling mass of a hammer and repetitive action of a hammer there is an effect. This could be considered a problem, but it's just simple geometry and physics in action.

Being aware of the potential problems  of getting the work out of line and paying attention and heading it  off the at the pass [ as Clifton Ralph was fond of saying. ] is usually enough to get the proper end result in the work.

Unlike most of the history of ironwork, contemporary blacksmiths take basically perfect material  as it comes from the mill and reshape it imperfectly to suit our vision.

That slight imperfection of form is what I think is at the heart of  the response of the human eye and spirit to forged art work.

Picasso attributed his success as an artist not to the fact that he knew how to paint, but that he knew when to stop.

 

Great discussion here! Thanks

 

[basher]

I have had lots of hammers, mechanical and air and there are  only a couple of reasons i would chose a mechanical over air. 

 one is economy, economy of power consumption, you get a lot more hit per HP whith a mechanical, If you have single phaze or limited ampage then they can be the only answer, I had a 60 lb goliath running on 1hp (they run better on 5 though)

 The other is economy of purchase they are often a lot cheaper.

If you ad to that economy of repair, and I would include "easy to understand for a layperson" within that.....

 I have a place (very limited) for the soft slow blow in my work but have become much more fond of the soft fast blow of an air hammer. the soft slow blow slows you down when forging to a fine forged finish under the hammer.

I would love a fast spring hammer (400bpm) as there is an obvious advantage in that for a limited mumber of jobs.

Otherwise in use, I prefer my air hammers. Forging 5mm stock, fullering it with a tall fuller and  all in the same minute (i work a lot of stuff in the fire at once) working 60mm square damascus billets.

 I run my pilkington on a VFD and can ajust the  speed, this changes the blow power dramaytically but can give a wonderfull slow paced hit.

I use the start up exhaust on my Alldays and onions 200WT (this exhausts the drive piston to air, lowering the air and vaccuum pressure) to vary the ram lift at a given height and can hot cut 10lb billets of damascus material to leave a 1 to 2mm flap for folding (as gentle as a lamb) and at the pull of the leaver turn the machine into a monster.

I have used similar sized Nazel to do forge welding of multy bar billets that were stacks 1mm wide by 60mm high, I would not be able to pull that off on a similar sized mechanical hammer.

 My two main hammers are sahinla and I do almost all my smaller and finish work on them.

If I were to give advice it would be to get a power hammer and get to know it. They are all amazing tools especialy when you know them well.

If I could only have one hammer it would definatly be an air hammer,

[Sanderson Iron]

1 hour ago, the iron dwarf said:

here are two quotes from you stating that they cannot use tooling

If all you want to do is strike the metal between the hammer's dies (no tooling)

 If all you want to do is smash metal between the dies, without using any tooling,

In neither of your quotes did I say that a self contained hammer "cannot be used with tooling."  I never said that.  I said they are better without tooling, better for direct hammering between the dies, that if all you want to do is smash metal, it might be the hammer for you.  I never said they cannot be used with tooling, so please get over it.  Don't claim I said something I did not. 

A self contained hammer's action is not as varied as a mechanical hammer's, which gives a mechanical a wider range of application, including for use with tooling.  A mechanical hammer can make every type of blow that a pneumatic can make, but the reverse is not true. 

Joel

 

[Alan Evans]

2 hours ago, Sanderson Iron said:

 However, to answer your question, any time an object is held by hydraulic or air, you'd better be careful, because it could fall.

The sky could fall as well...but disregarding the fact that one of your toggle arms could fail, I think it a bit weak to compare versatility of one hammer but dismiss the versatility of another because of a possible mechanical failure!

A far more likely scenario for a dangerous event with a hammer, air or mechanical....Any hammer with a foot pedal is in very real danger of having something heavy dropped on it, or activated by your foot should you stumble, even if you have a safety shelf above it. That is far more likely an event than the valve system should fail in such a way that the air pressure above the tup was allowed in whist simultaneously the air below was sucked out causing it to do anything other than gracefully sink to the anvil...

I think you are struggling now...

Alan

[Alan Evans]

14 minutes ago, Sanderson Iron said:

snip...  Don't claim I said something I did not. 

A self contained hammer's action is not as varied as a mechanical hammer's, which gives a mechanical a wider range of application, including for use with tooling.  A mechanical hammer can make every type of blow that a pneumatic can make, but the reverse is not true. 

Joel

 

In that case...Please don't ignore something I said and repeat the same over-generalisations. You have a valid point but you are weakening it by not recognising that only a few mechanical hammers have the range of application of your Murray. Many are only capable of direct forging, they have been mentioned in this thread already.

The Massey Clear Space has a greater range of blows and versatility than your Murray, without any fussy adjustment.

Slipping the clutch on your Murray to give you a squeeze/push is not generating full power as you seem to imply, that comes from the flywheel effect of everything at full rpm. Similarly the Massey when it is in press mode is generating full air pressure into the plenum chamber and the valves are metering that behind the piston, sure it is only a few atmospheres but it is a large surface area piston, but it is not generating full power through full acceleration.

All the air hammers, direct and indirect versions, give the squeezing blow you refer to, just like the Murray. The Murray would come to a dead stop if it did not have its spring arms to flex, they generate the squeeze. It is why you cannot forge with a toggle press...The air hammer hits the surface, the air pressure continues to build behind it delivering the squeeze just like the spring arms yielding, until the valve releases the pressure.

Alan

[the iron dwarf]

none of your quotes says they are better without tooling, here they are again so you can read them

If all you want to do is strike the metal between the hammer's dies (no tooling)

 If all you want to do is smash metal between the dies, without using any tooling,

 

notice the word better is not included anywhere

and as the dies often are the tooling this makes your words look even more ludicrous  or are you going to say your words dont mean what they say.

maybe you should be a politician!

over generalizations, a closed mind, you are right and the whole world is wrong even though the evidence denies it

[Sanderson Iron]

2 hours ago, Alan Evans said:

It is why you cannot forge with a toggle press...

Goodness me, who in the world told you that?  That is totally untrue.  I forge with a toggle press as much as I forge with a hammer.  Maybe you could explore a little more the potential of mechanical forging machines in general.  

2 hours ago, Alan Evans said:

The sky could fall as well...but disregarding the fact that one of your toggle arms could fail, I think it a bit weak to compare versatility of one hammer but dismiss the versatility of another because of a possible mechanical failure!

A far more likely scenario for a dangerous event with a hammer, air or mechanical....Any hammer with a foot pedal is in very real danger of having something heavy dropped on it, or activated by your foot should you stumble, even if you have a safety shelf above it. That is far more likely an event than the valve system should fail in such a way that the air pressure above the tup was allowed in whist simultaneously the air below was sucked out causing it to do anything other than gracefully sink to the anvil...

I think you are struggling now...

Not struggling at all.  Putting your hand under a running machine is quite a bit more risky than putting your hand under one which is stationary.  The air hammers' ram is always snuffing and running--it has to be to be raised.  A mechanical just hangs there, like I said, or it is held with a brake.  Seems sensible to me.

2 hours ago, the iron dwarf said:

none of your quotes says they are better without tooling, here they are again so you can read them

If all you want to do is strike the metal between the hammer's dies (no tooling)

 If all you want to do is smash metal between the dies, without using any tooling,

 

 I sure don't see a "cannot" in there, which you falsely claimed I said.   If all you want to do is strike the metal between the hammer's dies, an air hammer might be fine.  If you want more varied blows for use with tooling, get a mechanical.   An air hammer cannot do all the variation that a mechanical can.  It's pretty simple to understand why that'd make them more versatile and better for varied tooling.  One machine with a broader spectrum means a broader application.  

Joel

[Alan Evans]

40 minutes ago, Sanderson Iron said:

Goodness me, who in the world told you that?  That is totally untrue.  I forge with a toggle press as much as I forge with a hammer.  Maybe you could explore a little more the potential of mechanical forging machines in general.  

Sorry your are right, I should have said, not appropriate for free-forging. I was in "versatility of one hammer to do it all discussion mode". Of course if it is production die work and you work within the throw, it is possible, and could be extremely efficient to manipulate hot metal with one. I am intrigued that you use one as much as your hammers though...what are you producing with it/what is your main business? And have you ever had one stall (which is the point I was making) while setting up for instance?

But whilst picking me up on that you ignored the squeeze issue? Do you still consider the air hammer to have no squeeze? The whip lash acceleration of the Murray on full automatic I would have thought would have very little squeeze compared to an air or steam hammer, the spring is trying to pull the tool back at point of impact rather than push it forward.

Alan

[beaudry]

 A quick look at Sanderson Iron web site will tell you that  he is well versed in the setup, care and use of a fine collection old American  mechanical metalworking machines as well as a very impressive portfolio of work produced with those machines. I appears that  he has the resume to back up his strongly held opinions whether you agree with them or not  .

As I said before; ''different strokes for different folks ''.

Twenty years ago in the US if you wanted to acquire a power hammer suitable for a small general or artistic blacksmith shop,  the choice was either an old mechanical hammer in rebuildable condition, a top dollar imported Kuhn pneumatic or an large industrial hammer that was fairly cheap to buy but required   a massive investment of time and money to move, install and power before you even knew if it ran.

Now there are a whole bunch of smaller import machines available, Turkish clones of the Kuhn/Reitter or the Chinese  knockoffs of the Beche/Chambersburg design.

These are competitively priced and  usually require minimal work to install and power. Reports of their  quality and durability vary widely and only time will tell how well they hold up.

I went the mechanical hammer route because at the time it really was the only  viable option. They have served me well , paid for themselves many,many times over and provided a good living, enough to raise a family and fund an eventual retirement debt free .

Any limitations are more from lack of understanding or imagination on my part rather than the equipment.

The true masters of the mechanical hammer era are all gone now, For better or worse we are the next generation trying our best and figuring it out and keeping it alive as we go.

The few mechanical hammers I see listed for sale seem to be sad old machines at top dollar on Eb$y, crudely repaired by hillbillies to ''git her done''and cash in on a fad.

If I was starting over, I'm not sure what route I would go.