FlyingXS Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I've been noticing lately references to the use of oxy acetylene torches for localised heating. E.g localised heat for bending, heating tenons and rivets prior to penning over. So I'm now considering if it would be a worthwhile investment? How many of you use them and what for? Is it something more particular to industrial smiths over hobby smiths? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Until you get one you don't know how useful it is in the smithy. Not only can you heat with it, you can weld, braze and cut. If you are a knife or tool maker you can use it for tempering and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 They are only useful if you want a tool that can cut, spot heat, weld, braze, heat treat, and make you money. If you have other means of welding read up on oxy-propane rigs for everything but the welding and save on acetylene costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I have a couple of oxy sets but the bottle rental costs are too high in Aust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingXS Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 Spot heat, heat treat & cut. Are what I'm focussed on. Brazing I haven't seen a need.....yet. As for welding, I have 2 stick and a MIG. So that isn't a nessecity unless it can do something the others can't and is easy to learn. I looked a some LPG (similar to propane) torches that I wondered if they would get hot enough, fast enough? Anyone used ser a straight propane kit? I have the small disposable Mapp/Butane and want something much, much more effective. I also saw the LPG/Oxy sets which are about 20% cheaper than the Acetlyne kit the same. I'm told they work just as well but cheaper to run, although they can't weld. I assume therefore they are not quite as hot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notownkid Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I would hate to not have a set as I use them for both Farm Equip & truck repairs and in the blacksmith shop for a fast heat up in a limited area. I'm reducing farming so may give up the big set that I lease the bottles and just use my small set that I own the tanks. There is a substantial cost involved with tank rentals or refills if you own tanks. Leasing the tanks unless you use them a lot proves very costly per use. I haven't x'd out the propane units for cost or use yet may be my answer?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 The propane/oxy kits aren't too bad. It just doesn't get as hot as acetylene and you use a little more oxygen, but that's the cheapest gas you'll buy. As for brazing, if you do any knife making or just do dats it's a good process to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingXS Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 So far all I'm hearing is positives except for the associated costs with gas, however most of you seem to prefer to live with the expense than be without Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Ox/Ac is very useful and a tool that both heats and cuts. Cost of the gas depends on the amount of gas you use. ALWAYS turn both tanks OFF when you are finished and always check to be sure the tanks are turned off before you shut down and leave. You can purchase your own tanks and avoid the rental fee on the tanks. Check with the gas supplier to be sure they will refill YOUR tanks. Many times you must produce paperwork that shows you purchased those specific tanks. Your tanks much be pressure tested on a periodic basis. There is no free lunch, but the cost of having the tanks on hand smooths out if you use the ox/ac torch on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubalcain2 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 next to a hammer an oxy torch might be the most versatile tool you will ever own. definitely get one. unless, off course, you want to be the least efficient blacksmith on the planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 I don't have oxy/acet due to the cost and storage problems. I do have propane, and compressed air so can manage a lot with that. I also have a stick welder and use carbon rods......so although I rarely do, I could perform all the taks the acet would cope with, without the cost and storage problems. All be it not as efficently, but that's not really a criteria for a hobby smith. However, in a commercial setting you likely can't afford not to have it....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Jones Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 i lucked out I bought some second hand bottles ( 1 oxy 1 acet both 1/2 full and smallish size) about a year back and due to the move I haven't used them then twice this year i've been given oxy/acet bottles both time the larger sizes and both times at least 1/2 full with the last set I was also given lines(hoses) a welding and a cutting torch and a barrow( dont know the correct term) for them to sit on.. I spoke to a fire safety advisor on a course I was on and he recommends that in addition to making sure both bottles are always tuned off to store them as far apart as you can oxy 1 side of the building and acet on the other. If one goes up it will make a huge mess if both go off it will be disastrous he told me.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingXS Posted October 1, 2016 Author Share Posted October 1, 2016 Smoggy,. What is your Oxy compressed air set up? Details, photo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 It isn't, it's propane, and a air compressor.....so you have a gas torch with forced air. It's a very old torch, somewhere at the back of the shed, no idea of the make but it's similar to a oxy/fuel torch in appearance with similar tips. ( likely to a BOC product, years ago it wasn't as easy to get acetalyne for home use so this would have been a 'viable' option ) There is another type that mixes and burns inside a chamber and the exhaust gas temp is tremendous......thermal lance, you may have seen road markings being burn off the tarmac with them, sounds like a jet engine running an afterburner and needs a spark plug ignition system to start them up, (of little practicle use in smithing but darned full tool to use) (NB, as I recall, there was a youtube vid of an aussie gent converting a oxy/ace torch to propane compair, may be worth a look see, usually safety warnings apply) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Propane is much cheaper and more readily available than acetylene and you don't have to rent or buy expensive bottles. Propane has different flame character and heat properties. Actually Propane will heat better than acetylene. With acetylene you can weld as well as cut, heat and braze. With Propane you can not weld (it does not form the shielding cone needed for welding). If you plan to use Propane you need to have a torch, regulators and hoses made for Propane. Because Propane is petroleum based it will break down the hoses, O rings and diaphragms made for acetylene. I use Propane extensively in my shop. I can run a 20# bottle for a longgggg time. I also have a gas saver on a stand that is made for Propane. I use my torch all the time. For localized heating and when carving nothing beats it. I use the gas forge if I need to heat larger areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingXS Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 Thanks Wayne. What is a gas saver, how's it work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 A gas saver is a device that you hook gas/oxy hose from the tanks to, then the hoses from the torch. It has a pilot light and an arm that shuts off the gas/oxy to the torch off when you hang the torch on the arm. Great product and will either save a lot of gas or time having to shut off the torch then resetting the valves when you want to use it again. I primarily use it when heating parts, then forging, then heating, then forging, etc. Here is pictures and further description: http://store.cyberweld.com/smithgasaver.html. I paid $100.00 for mine about 15 years ago. If this link gets purged just google gas saver welding. I saw present pricing from $125.00 on up so shop wisely. Let me know if I can help you. Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 As Wayne says, I find gas savers (gas economisers over here) are great for small forgings like bottle openers and spoons. Items which lose their heat fast. Also good for those things you want to keep the surface clean without fire scale and other detritus. The single most useful thing though, and the reason I got mine in the first place, was for hot riveting during assembly. Even just a hook so that you could hang the torch safely and quickly is good...that it will turn off the flame and light it again instantly is even better. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 I have an AllState's oxy propane torch and it has a thumb valve in the handle to open or close the oxy propane flow. AllState's let the patent lapse a couple years ago so Harris markets a version under their trademark now. Harris was making the Allstate rig but. . . .Nevermind that's not really relevant. Harris sells an igniter for their torches with the thumb valve, you simply scratch a grounded surface with the torch tip as you open the valve and it sparks and lights the torch. NO you don't rub it tip first into the table, just touch the end on one side. I don't much like rubbing any part of my torch tips on the table or work but loved the idea I could leave my striker on the tank. What I do is connect a 12v trickle charger to the torch handle and ground it on the table, work or whatever. I have a short piece of wire wrapped on the torch tip with an end sticking out close to the tip for the scratch starter. It sounds like a PITA but works a treat and a trickle charger is soooooo much cheaper than an engineer designed torch igniter. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingXS Posted October 7, 2016 Author Share Posted October 7, 2016 Anyone got a link to that all states torch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Buy the Harris multi fuel torch, it's the same basic tool for less than 1/2 the $ and 5x the service. Since Lyle passed away Allstates has been getting away from the torches. I needed a reg repaired and they acted like they were doing me a favor and charged way more than I could've bought a new reg for from Harris. It kills me to say so but in all honesty buy the Harris they make them for Allstate anyway. I'd post a link to the Harris set but it's different every time I look, you can contact them and ask for THE one. They're helpful folk. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingXS Posted October 7, 2016 Author Share Posted October 7, 2016 I asked for a link so I can see what it looks like. I'm in Australia. We do have some Harris gear here but it comes from the Europe plant not the USA Milwaukee? Plant. so the models etc will have diff designations etc. and I'd have to tell the store guy this is the one I want to order in as they only sell a few of many different brands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Well, wouldn't you know it I drug out my Google Fu and the first hit I opened is a link to a guy demonstrating an All States torch who doesn't know how to use it. The mistake he's making is he doesn't have the oxy turned up high enough, he's running it at maybe double the oxy pressure an oxy acet torch would operate at. If he'd had it turned to the recommended psi for 1/4" steel, around 60psi he would've made that cut in a 2-3 seconds. Not by tracking the torch along like oxy acet but by rolling the torch directing the oxy jet along the cut line. It would've cut that plate easily and clean as a saw out to 10"+. Below is the torch set I have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQxHmKBgE-0 And here's the Harris site kit demonstration. I didn't see a thumb valve on the handle but they're available. This guy doesn't have the oxy turned up high enough either, it should've gone through the piece he demonstrated cutting in maybe a whole second. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PbJtcBVtxQ And here's one from Harris in Australia! Again no thumb valve in the handle. And again not near enough oxy psi to operate near capacity. They probably don't want to scare people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZRPlSoMmgk Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingXS Posted October 7, 2016 Author Share Posted October 7, 2016 Thanks I'll have a look Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 Hi Flyingxs, the tool company Gas weld has a deal where they sell you the bottles and have an exchange refilling service and no rental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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