Jasent Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 It's coming along nicely. Will fire it today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeThePro Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Looking good. I gave mine a rub on some concrete to smooth off the top and take the loose spheres off, but I don’t think it’s critical. Happy thanksgiving! Before: After: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasent Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Happy thanksgiving to you as well. I'll give that a try. Thanks for the tips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasent Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 I think it's a bit too restrictive. It spudders none stop at all preasure from 1-30. But add a little air preasure and holy smokes! I may need to do some more tuning as I only tried one burner I had and only had 20 min to tinker. It's going to be a fun project! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricIN Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Interesting to see the progress on the burners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Here's the results of my entry into the NARB crowd. I call it Franken-NARB because I used ideas from several of you guys to build it. The body is an iron conduit T with 3/4" threaded inlets. I used hot glue sticks with actual diameter of 9/32" to cast the holes, and I used one entire bag of castable #2 from Wayne for the block. The block measurements are 5 inches long by about 1.75 inches wide by 2 inches tall and there are 14 holes. It's powered by a 1/2 inch Frosty T burner using a 4 inch pipe nipple, and that's connected to the conduit T using a 3/4 inch to 1/2 inch hex bushing. I originally cast this using Kastolite 30 and 25 holes. That's way too many holes for a 1/2 inch burner tube though, so after I determined the right amount of holes for the burner I cast it again using the material I got from Wayne. I started this project when it was too cold for me to want to work outside, so instead of a wooden mold form I used cardboard lined with clear plastic packing tape. It seemed to work out ok, but if I do it again and the weather doesn't keep me inside I'll build a mold form completely from wood. I still may line it with packing tape though. That seemed to work well for getting a good release. This appears to be a good burner setup for a freon tank sized forge. My last burn went from cold forge to welding temp (for high carbon steel anyway) in less than 15 minutes. Unfortunately the tablet I used for the pics can't seem to grab good shots of the flame. Everything gets washed out in a white glow. This is a pic from the first casting where I used kastolite 30 and 25 holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeyForge Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I think you are making good progress and I am looking forward to more of your results. I will probably construct e new small (150/200 cubic inch) forge and may consider "converting" one of my NA burners to a ribbon burner. (They just screw on and off anyway ) Frankly I am surprised more people haven't responded to your post. Good luck tuning and looking forward to more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Thanks MF. The flames are a little deceiving since I couldn't get good pics of the flame colors. With the burner block pointed up in the open air that's less than 1 psi, so I'm probably burning way rich there due to the low fuel stream velocity. Even inside the forge I had the pressure turned way down to try to get accurate pictures of the flame colors, but couldn't seem to pull it off with that tablet. Outside the forge I'll get some flame lift at fairly low pressure, but inside the forge I can turn it up past 10 psi immediately without any problems. With a cold forge I get a fair amount of blue dragon's breath at the startup, but as the forge lining begins to glow the flames in the dragon's breath gradually turn to mostly orange. The flames directly from the burner block are a fairly vibrant blue at moderate pressure with the burner inside the forge. I'm not seeing any signs of significant scaling with steel inside the forge, although as I approach white heat I do start to see some bubbling on the surface of the steel (this is high carbon steel), which I believe means I'm burning the surface. Pulling the piece out doesn't create a sparkler though, so I think I'm still just a little bit below burning temperatures with my pressure maxed out. In my case that's about 23 psi. I haven't had much of a chance to forge lately, but it appears that 6 to 10 psi is where I'll do most of my forging based on the colors I was seeing at those pressures. So far I'm pretty happy with it, but I cracked my kastolite lining in the forge badly when cutting the hole for the burner, so now I have to decide whether to patch, reline, or build a new forge for the burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasent Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Loving the updates. I haven't messed with mine for a while now. Should get back to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danjmath Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I'm starting new forge/burner now, and think I'm going to do one of these. Had a few questions. How deep is the plenum (and does it make much difference). Would I need to adjust the size from Frosty's 21-hole for a #20 propane tank forge with 2" kaowool and .5" refractory, or would that work with that small of a forge. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 27 minutes ago, Danjmath said: Had a few questions. How deep is the plenum (and does it make much difference). I didn't take exact measurements, but I'll try to remember to do that tonight. For reference sake though, the inlets are 3/4" tapered pipe threads, so it can't be much more than 1 inch between the burner block and the opposite wall. I haven't tried different sized plenums (yet) so I cannot speak intelligently about the impact of different plenum sizes. If you were feeding this with a 3/4" burner tube it's likely that you would have to make some changes. The number of holes would definitely be different. Whether 21 is the correct number for this type of setup I do not know. I have no idea if the plenum size would need to change. When I get the time and materials together I plan to make another one of these using a 1 inch conduit T and a 3/4" burner tube, and I would start with 25 holes again and plug as necessary until I found what appeared to be the ideal number. I think Frosty used crayons and I'm not sure what the diameter of those crayons was, so I can't even guess if that number would apply to the hot glue sticks I have been using. Just FYI, the reason I used glue sticks was that on my first attempt with 25 holes I needed to use a space slightly bigger than the opening in the conduit T. Since the glue sticks are flexible I was able to bend the outermost sticks a little to make everything fit. That was unnecessary with 14 glue sticks. Also, slightly warm glue sticks shrink in diameter when you stretch them, so I was able to pull them all out of the casting after a few days of curing rather than having to melt them out. There is a risk of breaking the mold with this method and I did have some small pieces around the holes break off when I pulled some of them out. Fortunately this didn't create any cracks or other structural issues that I have been able to see, but use that technique at your own risk. At this time I can only verify that it gets my refrigerant tank forge plenty hot within a reasonable amount of time. The forge you describe has a larger chamber than my current forge. In general, the larger the forge the larger the burner needs to be. I'd actually like to try this in a forge around 300 to 350 cubic inches to see how it performs, but I'm guessing I'd need to go bigger than this for welding heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbradshaw Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I have now cast two heads using Frosty's original description for the plenum and number of holes. The refractory I used is Mizzou, because I had some on hand already. On both of my castings I am having an issue with leaks along the long edges. On one I tried patching over the area with more Mizzou with no luck. I think I may have built my form too tight. The Mizzou gets crumbly where it meets the metal in a thin layer. I think at least a 1/4" extra on each side would have been more successful. Has anyone else had issues with a good seal at the edges? Were you able to patch the areas successfully? I am thinking of trying some high temperature furnace cement before I scrap them and start over. I will have to buy some more refractory before I can try casting again. Has anyone tried more than one refractory for casting ribbon burners? Did you find a greater success with one vs another? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockmaker Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I used Wayne Coe's burner head refractory, not sure what it is, but I made five heads, four naturally aspirated, and one blown. Wayne has two types, I used them both and both performed well, no leaks, no cracks. This high tech refractory is tricky to mix up, if goes from too thick to too thin in a heart beat, you want it thin enough to flow around your forms and against the plenum body, but not so thin that you weaken it. You also need to vibrate the whole assembly while wet to insure a good flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I've used Kastolite 30 and the castable #2 from Wayne. In both cases I was able to get good seals. Since I haven't worked with Mizzou I don't know if this applies, but for the materials I have used baking them in the toaster oven for a few hours toughened them up a bit and cut down on the crumbly factor. If you're using a wooden form you should be able to cook the whole thing in the 200 to 300 F range without incident. Not sure what that will do to your crayons though. 16 minutes ago, stockmaker said: This high tech refractory is tricky to mix up, if goes from too thick to too thin in a heart beat, you want it thin enough to flow around your forms and against the plenum body, but not so thin that you weaken it. You also need to vibrate the whole assembly while wet to insure a good flow. +1 on this. It really surprised me how quickly it went from too dry to too wet. Add water in very small amounts and mix thoroughly to get the right consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasent Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I have only used kastolite but no leaks or cracks. I fired mine in the forge after curing for 2days if I remember right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbradshaw Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Thanks for the quick answers. I picked up some furnace cement (package says it is rated for 3000 degrees) on the way home from work. I will order some Kastolite too since I want to cast at least one more burner. And widen the walls on my form before casting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canlib Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Here's my second firing. First time with damp refractory on both the burner and the forge and wax residue still in the holes was bleak. This one brought a big smile to my face in spite of a snowy Farch day here in Canada. I followed Frostys T burner and NARB instructions carefully. Got Uni-cast 2600 from Plainsman Clay. Also zirconium and bentonite for the wash. I'll put that on tomorrow. Thank you Frosty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbradshaw Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 On 2/21/2018 at 8:48 PM, Jbradshaw said: Thanks for the quick answers. I picked up some furnace cement (package says it is rated for 3000 degrees) on the way home from work. I will order some Kastolite too since I want to cast at least one more burner. And widen the walls on my form before casting it. An update. Using furnace cement to seal the leaks around the edges worked. Obviously I'll have to see how it holds up to use. The cement is supposed to be rated for 3000 F so I don't anticipate a problem. When I fire the burner up in open air it wants to blow the flames out, even at low gas pressure. I haven't tried it in a forge yet so maybe some back pressure will fix that. Has anyone else had this issue? What did you do to fix it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canlib Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 I didnt fire the narb outside the forge but my first firing wanted to blow out. I think the burner still being damp was a factor and I drilled out the crayons with a slightly smaller bit leaving the openings slightly undersized. As you can see in my previous post it works great now that it has gotten hot. Last time I ran it to fire the zirconium wash it ran those tight blue cones all the way to 20psi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 14 hours ago, Jbradshaw said: When I fire the burner up in open air it wants to blow the flames out, even at low gas pressure. I haven't tried it in a forge yet so maybe some back pressure will fix that. Has anyone else had this issue? What did you do to fix it? At fairly low pressure I get some flame lift outside the forge, but it does not blow the flames out. When I mounted mine in the forge it definitely made a difference. Before you mount it in the forge make sure all your holes are clean the full length of the block. If it blows the flames off in the forge with the holes all clear then you don't have enough holes. If it backfires a lot at medium to high pressure then you have too many holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 5, 2018 Author Share Posted March 5, 2018 You have the right of it. Empirical testing with hole # and flame results as you describe is how I established the number and Dia. to use in my burner block. I'm thinking you're getting a good handle on how the things work. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 7 hours ago, Frosty said: I'm thinking you're getting a good handle on how the things work. Thanks Frosty. Your advice and insights have been invaluable in getting me this far on the project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbradshaw Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 I haven't built a new forge for this burner yet but I was able to just for the block through the door in my current forge. I stayed lit with no problem. It I forgot to take pictures. Now to get materials to build a forge around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacksmith-450 Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 On 2018-02-21 at 11:37 AM, Jasent said: I have only used kastolite but no leaks or cracks. I fired mine in the forge after curing for 2days if I remember right. Still good ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasent Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Yes still good but hasn't been fired up much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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