Bmallen77 Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Recently got a total score on a fly press for only $50. Brought it back to my shop cleaned it up oiled everything up and built a stand for it and got it anchored in the concrete. Started building some tools for it and realized that I have an issue I can't figure out how to solve. i was making some pins for bending material out of 1" stock and went to set the stop on the screw so I could get a consistent bends for multiple pieces of material and realized that the threads for the screw do not go down far enough to set a stop for any material less than 1" thick. The only solutions I can see would be raising up the pins on the baseplate, but the problem with that is its only a #2 press and the travel of the screw is only 4" total and I already have a 3/4" baseplate then lose another 2" from the 1" pins, so that gives me only 1-1/4" of travel so raising higher is not an option. The other solution I could see is having a machinist try to thread the screw deeper so the stop can go down a little deeper. I am not sure if I explained the problem well enough but if there is any solutions or advice id greatly appreciate it. I will add a couple pictures of the press so maybe you can picture it better. Also if you have any information on the make of the press I'd also appreciate that. No markings other than the 2 that is an impression in the castings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Did you measure with the stop at maximum height or just as it is shown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmallen77 Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 Yes at maximum height there is 4" of distance from the bottom of the screw to the top of the baseplate. When the stop is all the way bottomed out on the threads there is 1" of gap between the 1" pin mounted on the 3/4" shank and the 1" pin fastened to the baseplate. If I raise the stop obviously I can bend smaller material than 1" but with no way of setting the accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Set the accuracy with a kiss block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmallen77 Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 Great idea I appreciate that. Do you think bringing the screw to a machinist and seeing if he could add another 1" of threads is a bad idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 I think it would be an extremely expensive idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 (edited) I am not sure what your problem is here except that you, along with quite a few others, are not aware of what a flypress should do, and how they are used/tooled up, I will try to explain a few basics which may help. Primarily they were not a blacksmiths tool/machine, we use them because we can. They were used on a short stroke on thin materials to produce many mass produced items, the stop facility was there mainly for a couple of reasons, firstlly for the task in hand, usually that was for either blanking out items or bending and forming items with a guaranteed repeatability. and secondly operating reasons, reduce fatigue and establish a rhythm when in use, maximising effort in a minimum time. They were used on cold, relatively thin materials Bending and forming was usually done with top and bottom tooling as individual or paired items depending on the task being done Blanking out shapes and punching holes were done using a top and bottom die set with pillars for accurate location when in use, without this degree of accuracy the dies (on the bottom tool), because of the clearances needed for cutting a clean profile, would not align with the punches, (top tool) and chip or break when in use. The clearances when in use were approximately 5% per side of the thickness of the material being used so on a 16 swg (1.6mm) workpiece which would mean less than 0.004" (four thousandths)or 0.08mm, which is not a lot as you can appreciate, hence the guide pillars. Stripper plates were also an essential part of the punching tools. Tooling was specific to the job being done, and this is applicable to what you are trying to do, you make the tooling to fit the gap and task in hand. I would suggest a google search on fly press tooling would be enlightening. It would also appear from your pictures that you have a toolholder already inserted into the press's toolholder mounting which may or may not help. Usually the standard size for the top tool location was 1" diameter, and a screwed spigot of this diameter was fitted to the top tool of the die set, It is good practice to mount the top tool to bear on the base of the top slide rather than rely on it bottoming out or just being held with the locking screw on the front. Basically you have the space that your screw travel allows, and the rotating stop allows for the stroke to be stopped at a specific place. The base plate you have there is a mounting plate to secure the tooling you make for whatever task you have to do, hence the T slot When you design your tooling, do so around what you have there, If you need to close the gap, either raise the base or increase the top tools length. This is a simple fixture I used to form collars,and other U shapes, or bend curves, or form angles, depending on what combination or top tool I used with it. I like to make the tool as versatile as possible so I can use them on other applications (and don't have so many to take up space in the workshop). If I needed to higher it, I just placed 1", or 2" thick bars beneath the strategic areas and then clamped it down to the T slot I hope this has helped somewhat in trying to understand how it works, and to best utilise your flypress. Good luck with it and enjoy, Edited September 12, 2016 by John B Picture and info added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 7 hours ago, Bmallen77 said: i was making some pins for bending material out of 1" stock and went to set the stop on the screw so I could get a consistent bends for multiple pieces of material and realized that the threads for the screw do not go down far enough to set a stop for any material less than 1" thick. The only solutions I can see would be raising up the pins on the baseplate, but the problem with that is its only a #2 press and the travel of the screw is only 4" total and I already have a 3/4" baseplate then lose another 2" from the 1" pins, so that gives me only 1-1/4" of travel so raising higher is not an option. In order of simplicity and economy... 1, Move the bottom pins closer together to get a tighter bend from a shorter stroke. Use swivelling bottom pins with flats to reduce any bruising. 2, Use a hand held/interchangeable top tool nose. e.g. a half round to start the bend, full round and half round on a square spacer and etc to complete. 2, Make your base tool two-stage...two pairs of pins at two different heights. You can do an initial bend then move the part-bent workpiece to the higher pins to tighten the bend. Obviously with a double length top pin. 3, Make swivelling pins with extended flats which can act as a cam action and over bend, (lots of work and head scratching). 4, Get a bigger fly press, or even better, a hydraulic one with a much longer stroke...you know it makes sense. Lots of possibilities...I often use a bit of 12mm (1/2") plate with a couple of Ø40mm (11/2") pins welded to it, I don't fix it down...it is self-centring. I then drop in one or two or more rounds to reduce the gap/centres if I need a tighter bend on thinner material. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 My screw press was bought new for use in a tool room of a large factory---straightening shafts, pressing bearings, etc---but didn't see much use as they got a hydraulic press soon afterwards and all the workers wanted to use that instead! I got to talk to a retired machinist who was there when it was bought in the later 1950's when I was at the auction of the Factory. My 7' tall H frame screwpress also cost US$50 (+ 15% buyer's reaming + $35 for a rigger to load it +...so I generally claim I paid about $100 for it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmallen77 Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 Thanks for the advice from all of you. Mr. John b I also appreciate your advice and I mean this very respectfully as I'm sure you have a lot more knowledge of fly presses and blacksmithing than I do. But I have worked in ornamental shops the last ten years of my life, and now have owned my own shop for almost 2 years now doing architectural ironwork and fabrication. I also worked for a very well know smith here in California. All of the shops have had fly presses and were used often. I personally have bent thousands of feet of bar with a fly press, slit and drifted literally hundreds of holes with a flypress and punched a few dozen as well. Not to mention using it for texturing and dishing material. I do not know the history or the original intent of the flypress but I sure as hell know how to use one. The pictures I put up were of the press the day I brought it home. I am attaching a couple pictures of where the press is at now in its process. You can see from the picture I am using 1" pins under the press. There is a piece of 5/8" roundbar in between the pins and the stop still has almost 3/4" of gap between the last thread and where it would bottom out. Meaning that there is no way to set a stop for repeated bends on that material. I am not sure I am explaining this well. I am no wordsmith. Hopefully the pictures make what I am saying more clear. Normally you would put your stock on top of the bottom pins. Then let the screw lower until your top pin rests on top of your stock material. Then you screw the stop down til it bottoms out there. Then you let off on the stop a half a turn or so at a time to effect how great or little your bend will be. In this case once the top pin bottoms out on the stock material, the stop has no more threads to bottom out to. That's as concise as I can explain it. I believe Thomas powers suggestion of the kiss block will work, however I would like the press to function as it should. I also know this isn't a large fly press and isn't designed for bending thick material cold. 90 percent of what will be bent on this press is 5/8" bar and smaller. It would be great to have a larger or hydraulic press with a longer stroke but like I said I have only had my business 2 years and obviously money isn't just rolling in to go invest in an awesome tool like that right now. I do not believe in putting myself in debt so all my tools are paid for cash. So for me I am trying to make do with the tool I have. I appreciate the advice and hope I did not come off disrespectfully. I do not think I'm some amazing smith or anything but I am definately not incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 The other simple starting thing to do is remove the tee slotted rectangular base plate and use the machine base. As far as I can tell after re-reading the dimensions you quote you are including the round tool holder in the slide. Removing that, if you have not already done so, will free up more working space. The tool holder and tee slotted base plate shown are not part of the original machine. 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: My screw press was bought new for use in a tool room of a large factory---straightening shafts, pressing bearings, etc---but didn't see much use as they got a hydraulic press soon afterwards and all the workers wanted to use that instead! I got to talk to a retired machinist who was there when it was bought in the later 1950's when I was at the auction of the Factory. My 7' tall H frame screwpress also cost US$50 (+ 15% buyer's reaming + $35 for a rigger to load it +...so I generally claim I paid about $100 for it) I paid around 300 pounds for my no. 8 fly press...complete with stand and some sheet metal box/control panel tooling. My 12 tonne single acting hydraulic press cost 350 ten years later. I hardly ever use the fly press now... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaudry Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 You've got plenty of stroke with that fly press and it doesn't need to be modified to work. Make the combined height of your top and bottom tooling such that the ram is fully enclosed within the guides at about mid stroke or the point of highest stress doing the job at hand. The bottom tools should have a piece of 3/8'' or 1/2'' plate with the tooling welded on top with a flange all around to clamp it to the bed of the press with the hold down clamps. The top tool should have a shank and flange plate welded to it or various small tools can fit into a common tool holder. In any case the shank of the tool should not bottom out in the hole in the ram with all the force being taken by the flange against the base of the ram. Keep the tooling tight and aligned and the ram well supported at the position of greatest stress. Keep the ram, guides and screw well lubricated with oil. Most tooling can be made from mild steel and it is useful to having a good supply of cutoffs for fabbing together tooling for the task at hand. I keep a supply of both bottom tool base plates and top tool flanged stems handy so I can quickly make a tool for a particular application, with about 100 tools already made, stored on a rack nearby . A fly press is an incredibly useful tool in the blacksmith shop for both hot and cold work. The range of work possible ,once you understand the basic principals and limitations is limited only by your imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 4 hours ago, Bmallen77 said: no need to re print the entire thing wasting bandwidth, remember most countries in the world charge by kilobyte. Well seeing those photographs it looks a bit obvious to me...you still have not removed the extra toolholder/chuck (as both JohnB and I have suggested)...and set your tool directly into the slide. The round tool holder is the main cause of reducing the working height and stoppable stroke length of your press. If for any reason you are not wishing to remove it... then just use a loose U shaped spacing/kissing block under the adjustable stop, as Thomas suggested. Alternatively if you are always going to be using the press like this, the kissing block can be made permanent by welding a collar to the underside of the adjustable stop. Your bottom plate pins are very wide spaced if you are trying to achieve a right angle bend. It is by dropping in loose bars between the fixed ones, as I mentioned above, that you can instantly change the dynamics of the tool...but as you say you know all about using fly presses! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmallen77 Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 I am an idiot and definitely made a mistake John b please feel free to kick me in the xxxxxx if you ever meet me . Just realized what he is saying and you are saying about the chuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 4 hours ago, Bmallen77 said: I am an idiot and definitely made a mistake John b please feel free to kick me in the xxxxxx if you ever meet me . Just realized what he is saying and you are saying about the chuck. No offence taken, not knowing your experience and also trying to help others at the same time, it was not my intention to upset anyone, I try to start at basics and then work onwards. Knowing how to use one, and knowing how they function and make tooling for them are two entirely seperate experiences, I often find it is so easy to overlook what becomes the obvious at a later date, and a fresh set of eyes is of enormous help, Looking at your own pictures will no doubt also give you a new view of what we have been trying to point out. Like they say a picture is worth a thousand words (Unless it's a picture of me, and then there is usually a good single word or two for it, just those that can't be mentioned in polite conversation) Having got past this, good luck and you do have a great little tool there, especially as you come to terms with it and it's capabilities. Have fun and enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aessinus Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 6 hours ago, Bmallen77 said: I am an idiot and definitely made a mistake John b please feel free to kick me in the xxxxxx if you ever meet me . Just realized what he is saying and you are saying about the chuck. 1 hour ago, John B said: No offence taken, not knowing your experience and also trying to help others at the same time, it was not my intention to upset anyone, I try to start at basics and then work onwards. Knowing how to use one, and knowing how they function and make tooling for them are two entirely seperate experiences, I often find it is so easy to overlook what becomes the obvious at a later date, and a fresh set of eyes is of enormous help, Looking at your own pictures will no doubt also give you a new view of what we have been trying to point out. Like they say a picture is worth a thousand words (Unless it's a picture of me, and then there is usually a good single word or two for it, just those that can't be mentioned in polite conversation) Having got past this, good luck and you do have a great little tool there, especially as you come to terms with it and it's capabilities. Have fun and enjoy League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? Well done lads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmallen77 Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 Good luck to you sir. I apologize again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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