TFT Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 Maybe youre right I just looked up the dia. On the 100# and its ~14.5 and i ran the numbers on the circumference and i dont think id have enough wool but if i had gotten enough id just bring the i.d. down to my desired size... Oh well looks like the little tanks are where its at... But for the circumference would you use the i.d. for the radius or radius+/-.5in because of the thickness of the wool? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 4 hours ago, TFT said: But for the circumference would you use the i.d. for the radius or radius+/-.5in because of the thickness of the wool? Did you read that before hitting "Submit?" Don't tell me you seriously want to know if I use the Inside Diameter for the Radius. Oh okay I suppose you meant the Inside Dimension. Of course you could do what I do on the rare occasions I make a cylindrical forge, I wrap a tape around the outside and add some, the larger the dia. the more extra. You want the Kaowool cut larger so you have to compress it to fit. That way it's rebound pressure holds it in place. I'd give a 10" dia shell at least 1" extra and if it went in too easily I'd give the inner layer more excess. Rebound pressure is your friend. This situation isn't appropriate for that level precision. However in situations it is, calculate your cut length fro the center of the material being wrapped. For instance a 1" thick wrapper on a 10" dia. pipe. yes? figure the length of the wrapper from it's center or Pi X 11". Think that won't be close enough? How much longer will the same wrapper be wrapped around the planet Earth if measured from the outside of the wrap as opposed to the inside? The circumference on the outside will be 3.1416" longer than the inside. This ain't the place to use your calculator, put it down and back away. Back AWAY I say! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 15, 2016 Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 29 minutes ago, Frosty said: This ain't the place to use your calculator, put it down and back away. Back AWAY I say! Frosty The Lucky. Yea... its kinda my thing... waiting for machine cycle to finish.... thinking and having a calculator in front of me 32 minutes ago, Frosty said: Did you read that before hitting "Submit?" Don't tell me you seriously want to know if I use the Inside Diameter for the Radius. Oh okay I suppose you meant the Inside Dimension. I meant for calculating material if you would just use the i.d. of the shell or using the thickness of the wool which you mentioned... because im well aware of D=2xR if thats what that was about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Ahh, you did mean Inside Dimension. If you need precision calculate using the center of the wrapping material added or subtracted as the new radius. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aessinus Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Is it flexible enough to ignore any anticlastic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 19, 2016 Author Share Posted September 19, 2016 So does anyone have a preference on kitty litter brands? And how deep of a layer should i have? And would that be used in calculating chamber size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 On 9/15/2016 at 2:10 PM, aessinus said: Is it flexible enough to ignore any anticlastic? Yes. 5 hours ago, TFT said: So does anyone have a preference on kitty litter brands? And how deep of a layer should i have? And would that be used in calculating chamber size? Buy cheap'o bargain basement clay kitty litter. It is Bentonite clay. Don't mix it into mud or it will shrink and crack as it dries, (shrink check) like a dry mud puddle. It takes time for the moisture content to equalize so add a little water mix it and let it sit overnight in a closed container. Install it as dry as you can work it in, I like ramming it in with a mallet or the end of a baseball bat. You'll have to experiment with the ratios but figure about 1-2 pts sand to 1pt clay. Be aware though I have experience using this ratio with fire clay or river bank clay rather than bentonite. Bentonite is some sticky, slippery, get everywhere clay most commonly used as drilling mud. Another common use is to plug the tap hole in cupola and other foundry melters. The stuff doesn't care if you jam a slobbery glob of bentonite mud into a hole with molten iron flowing out of it, it sticks and plugs the hole. Bentonite is NOT much of an insulator, think hard fire brick but it will take more heat. a couple inches for a good heat barrier back it with soft fire brick or Kaowool and you should be golden. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 19, 2016 Author Share Posted September 19, 2016 Ok thanks i was thinking i would just load the things up with just the kitty litter dry... good thing i asked but is plain play sand good for the mix or do i need silica sand? Do you dry mix the litter/sand before adding water? And i got two sq feet of insboard. Im thinking one for the top(hotface covered in kastolite) and the other for the bottom(topped with the clay mix) but do you think the board would sag to fit the bottom(bad) or should i fill the bottom to make a flat base. And i know its a garbage material for refractory but fill the bottom with, dare i say, plaster of paris and sand mix? But that would be the very bottom under the insboard and clay floor. I only ask cause i have the PoP left over from my misinformed days before IFI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 I guess I don't have a clear idea of how you want to use the kitty litter. If it's as a floor to protect the forge floor from flux then just covering it with dry litter should do the trick fine and forget the sand. Folk have been using it for a flux shield successfully for years. Don't make things more complicated than you need to. I must've missed your original question my mind was elsewhere. If anyone sees my mind will you send it home please? Anyway, If you'd clarify how you want to use kitty litter my suggestions won't be shots in the dark. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 19, 2016 Author Share Posted September 19, 2016 I was planning on using the litter as a consumable floor covering for which the floor would be kastolite(aswell walls) But now you got me all turned around My revised floor plan being from bottom to top: POP base to flaten the bottom, then insboard(1in), then kastolite(~.5in), then a few inches of loose litter(but thats where you got me losing my head) If im picking up what youre throwin down thatll be good.... right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 PROJECT UPDATE: Cut the top off a 30# propane tank( final decision) today and have all my supplies and ppe(not pictured, but there)... going to machine some 3"x4" and 3"x3" steel tubing tomorrow for the exhaust ports and if i feel like it the burner port Sorry but.... questions And for the lid i was thinking of drilling a few( like 20) holes around the rim then driving nails into the Insboard, securing it in place then tack welding the nails to the shell. Does that sound alright? I dont know of any other way to hold the insboard to the top of the lid. Then come yet another question. Hows kastolite going to like being up side down on the insboard? (How well do they "bond"?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 Personally I would fab up an inner ring of say 1/4" square stock, and weld it on the inside edge of the top of the lid. Then I'd put the cut board section, dampened, into the upside down lid and press it into place. I'd make a outer form around the upside down lid with sheet vinyl flooring material taped into a cylinder with duct tape. Then I'd cast the refractory insulation into the top section with it projecting out of the top at least 2". The refractory will hold the board in place since the fabricated ring will make a shelf to hold the refractory, and the slight overlap will protect the steel can. Remember the insulation of the forge interior will hold up the lid, and you should have ports in the side and not remove the lid unless relining the forge interior or replacing the kitty litter. Guess you could also use it for a casting forge, but I'd be careful with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 21, 2016 Author Share Posted September 21, 2016 2"? That seems a bit thick or is that for strength? But i like your idea. Ill have to see what i can find for a "ring". I will probably make a somewhat hybird of our ideas. But we will see I should dampen the board? With water? And should i use the instuff on the board or is it unnecessary? And i will not be using it for casting... forge ports are to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 2 hours ago, TFT said: 2"? That seems a bit thick or is that for strength? But i like your idea. Ill have to see what i can find for a "ring". I will probably make a somewhat hybird of our ideas. But we will see I should dampen the board? With water? And should i use the instuff on the board or is it unnecessary? And i will not be using it for casting... forge ports are to come. In a vertical forge the top of the forge will be the hottest location, needing the most insulation. Normally I would recommend (2) layers of your 1" board and at least an inch of cast refractory insulation. I'm a big fan of over-insulating my chambers to cut down on heat loss, but structurally the 2" isn't too far out of line depending on the eventual design of the keeper ring. However it will certainly add mass, so if you want a faster to heat forge I would go with the 2" of board, or 1" of board with 1" of blanket behind it, and 1" of castable insulation. Might want to consider adding some stainless needles to the latter for extra strength. If you are encapsulating the board with castable refractory insulation you should not need to also stiffen it. It comes pretty stiff from the factory. The water is to keep the board from sucking the moisture out of the cast insulation during the drying. A better method might be to use a layer of consumable wax paper between the layers and let it burn off during use. This is just theoretical though, I've never done it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 22, 2016 Author Share Posted September 22, 2016 Thanks for the advice for the lid. I think i will have enough wool to spare a sq foot for lid. So these ss needles.... how about some ss metal chips? I have the perfect chip in mind(maybe). Ill try to get a pic today at work And i have alot of scrap steel to use for the ring... different sizes and shapes but i have a certain type of scrap in mind.... ill try for a pic on that aswell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 I think the little ones would be better than the longer one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 UPDATE: machined ports and welded them to the shell... sorry for the delay(ive had it done for a week now, just got a puppy and have to take care of him when the domestic goddess is at work) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Cute puppy. Ports look good, though you may find them a little long. The dragons breath coming out will heat them up and the door closures at the front will add their volume to your forge chamber (from a capacity standpoint). The extended shelf is nice for supporting stock, but you may find that you want to cut the other three sides down to a 2" length (or consider the cast burner port shown in another topic in this forum). Where is your burner port and burner support? Looks like you have plenty of space above your kitty litter layer and below the openings to put in the burner. I'm still not certain why Don designed this vertical forge with so much "unused" space, but am willing to be educated. Shorter needles look good to me, though I think the ones I used were somewhere in between the sizes you have. In my experience these needles are a real bear to mix into the refractory, but do help in strength and longevity. Strangely any left exposed on the surface burn away, so make sure that they are all well covered with refractory when you do your casting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 Yea the ports are a bit long... i was planning on lining them with refractory but making them shorter would probaly make the forge more durable and easier to make... and those cast ports the one guy made i dont think mine would be quite as nice. Burner port is yet to come... thinking of machining it today. And to get the downward pitch im going to weld the pipe(burner port) on straight(but offset from center) and have two rows of set screws. Which im hoping lets me adjust the burner in all angles And with the needles in the mix, would it be worth mixing a covering batch without the needles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 21 minutes ago, TFT said: And with the needles in the mix, would it be worth mixing a covering batch without the needles? I wouldn't do that. The whole reason for the needles is to hold the refractory together if/when it cracks due to thermal cycling. A separate layer would defeat that purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 Since the domestic goddess if off this weekend im going to get started on filling the tanks base with PoP and let that dry out for a while... like a week then the fun really starts(assuming i finish the burner port first) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Don't forget to post pics as you go please. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 8 minutes ago, Frosty said: Don't forget to post pics as you go please. Frosty The Lucky. Sorry i meant to take more pics but from now on ill take pics between each step Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 Mini UPDATE: Machined the radius into the burner port( all but ~.3 because i was lazy and didnt want to put a longer end mill in... cutting and profile the rest tonight), added 2 rows of 3 set screws(3/8-16) The test fit was perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFT Posted October 1, 2016 Author Share Posted October 1, 2016 UPDATE: Cut and profiled burner port, finished the burner port hole(in the shell), cut down exaust port(front) At the shop now about to weld it up... and by the way these welds arent the best i got(burning though paint and in an unfavorable position, flat and straight vertical) but they will hold I tried to angle the burner downward by rotating it... i hope i didnt make it too extreme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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