Brazeal-style hot cut hardy question

[JHCC]

I just made my first Brian Brazeal-style hot-cut hardy, after suffering for far too long with a crappy hot-cut that didn't fit the hardy hole and bounced all over the place. I really like it a lot, but I've got one question.

I understand the theory of a tapered shank with no shoulders wedging securely in the hardy hole, but mine gets jammed in there pretty good, especially when I've been cutting heavy stock (e.g., 1-3/16" torsion bar). Sometimes I have to give it a good whack from below with a hammer to get it out again.

So, my question is, is this normal? Or did I make my taper too gradual and/or not thick enough at the top?

[Mark Ling]

Nice looking hardy! was that made by yourself, or a smith and striker? I also use a Brazeal style hot cut, and the reasoning is that it does get locked in place. To remove mine I just tap it (sometimes a little more than a tap) on the sides and the front of the hot cut, and has always loosened it for me. hope this helps!

                                                                                                             Littleblacksmith

[jeremy k]

Round the corners more on the shank of the cut off, so the corners don't get stuck and it only touches on the 4 sides - should help keep it from getting stuck in the anvil.

[JHCC]

1 hour ago, littleblacksmith said:

Nice looking hardy! was that made by yourself, or a smith and striker? I also use a Brazeal style hot cut, and the reasoning is that it does get locked in place. To remove mine I just tap it (sometimes a little more than a tap) on the sides and the front of the hot cut, and has always loosened it for me. hope this helps!

                                                                                                             Littleblacksmith

Thanks! I did most of the work myself; my 13-year-old son did a little striking on the shank. I have a 5/8" dia. spring fuller (made from an anti-sway bar) that makes the drawing-out work a lot easier. 

[Mark Ling]

32 minutes ago, jeremy k said:

Round the corners more on the shank of the cut off, so the corners don't get stuck and it only touches on the 4 sides - should help keep it from getting stuck in the anvil.

but that's the point of the tapered shank- so it locks in place.

                                                                                                                     Littleblacksmith

[jeremy k]

Yes,  your exactly right but the corners are typically the problem for the sticking

[JHCC]

Yes, but in this case, I think the taper is too gradual. It's not sticking in the corners, but in the centers of the faces.

[gote]

I do not quite get it with the tapered hotcut shank. I prefer to have a thigt fitting shank but to have the hotcut rest on a shoulder. If it is well made, the edge will not move more that a 1/100" but you can still lift it out using thumb and forefinger. (but you can only use it in that particular anvil)

If you insist on a tapered shank you can make it more "blunt" but then its seat is less well defined in the hole.

[Mark Ling]

Also, now looking back at the picture, I noticed that the shank goes all the way in. My suggestion about tapping it on the side to loosen it.My hot cut sticks out about an inch, so you may want to forge one with a fatter shank.

                                                                                        Littleblacksmith 

[JHCC]

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking: big enough to keep it from going all the way in.

[Bhutton]

Try this...Clean all surfaces (Hardy and hardy hole) rub some paint stick or crayon on the sides of the  hot cut shank...Insert shank into hardy hole.

Now cut a piece of hot metal...Then remove the hardy and look at the shank...The shinny surfaces will be the high spots...File these down...(Caution if grinding) This is what is holding the hardy tight in the hole.

Repeat this process 4-5 times and you should have a super fit that does not get stuck.

When finished one can wrap a piece of masking tape around the shank and re-fit if you'd like a bit of clearance. Masking tape mics out at about .006-.007 if i remember correctly.

[JHCC]

17 minutes ago, Bhutton said:

Try this...Clean all surfaces (Hardy and hardy hole) rub some paint stick or crayon on the sides of the  hot cut shank...Insert shank into hardy hole.

Now cut a piece of hot metal...Then remove the hardy and look at the shank...The shinny surfaces will be the high spots...File these down...(Caution if grinding) This is what is holding the hardy tight in the hole.

Repeat this process 4-5 times and you should have a super fit that does not get stuck.

When finished one can wrap a piece of masking tape around the shank and re-fit if you'd like a bit of clearance. Masking tape mics out at about .006-.007 if i remember correctly.

Good suggestion, but doesn't solve the too-small-shank problem that little blacksmith pointed out above. 

[Mark Ling]

38 minutes ago, JHCC said:

Good suggestion, but doesn't solve the too-small-shank problem that little blacksmith pointed out above. 

The only way to solve it that I can think of is to forge a new one. the words that you probably were never wanting to hear after hauling around 1 1/4" axle and a lot of hammering. or you could maybe weld on some flat bar to all four sides, bring up to forge welding temperature, blend everything in. Though that may be more trouble than its worth.

                                                                                                               Littleblacksmith

[JHCC]

6 hours ago, littleblacksmith said:

The only way to solve it that I can think of is to forge a new one.                                  

And here it is!

[SReynolds]

Somebody always has a better way. I have made them. And use them. But the smaller/taper shank with a shoulder resting on the face works real well. I have seen the video and have failed to see that his style cuts better than the (lets call it) old style. And advertising that a rounding hammer allows a better cut than a flat faced hammer ..............?

It is fun to experiment, but when you discover a method you like, there is satisfaction in that.

I worked in a shop yesterday with a couple others who have brought their own name brand Clark and yadda,yadda brand hammers with very short, square  wooden handles, square face etc. I did the same thing with one I found lying there. A  Sears Craftsman Cross-Pein 40 oz that appeared very well used. Long round handle and chipped face and pein. A real charmer.

Incidentally; they have a hardie cutter with long, tapered shank. Fit very loose and has a wide shoulder that rests on the anvil face.  Worked great!

[Mark Ling]

2 hours ago, SReynolds said:

And advertising that a rounding hammer allows a better cut than a flat faced hammer ..............?

My thoughts on this is that yes the round die of a rounding hammer is better than the flat die, and especially if you have bad hammer control. If you cut with the flat side of the hammer and don't hit the bar you are cutting squarely, than it tends to dent the material were as, the round side not only has less surface area contact (the bar stays hotter longer) but it also has more room for error. Same with the Brazeal style hot cut that has a curved edge, it has less surface area contact and, in my experience, cuts better. 

                                                                                                                    Littleblacksmith

[gote]

I do not get it. A flat hammer will hit squarely even if it is a little off whereas a rounded hammer will hit obliquely if you are not hitting in the right spot.

Are you seriously suggesting that there is an appreciable heat transfer from stock to hammer in the minute fraction of a second that the hammer is in contact with the stock?

[Mark Ling]

I'm not sure I'm explaining this correctly, but I'll try, if you tilt the face of a flat hammer the edge of the hammer face will dent it, where as, if you are cutting with the round die of a hammer, and don't come down perfectly square than it is no different than if the head of the hammer was perfectly straight up and down.

17 hours ago, gote said:

Are you seriously suggesting that there is an appreciable heat transfer from stock to hammer in the minute fraction of a second that the hammer is in contact with the stock?

No, you are absolutely right, it doesn't make much of a difference in how long it stays hot.

                                                                                                                   Littleblacksmith

 

[gote]

OK, I see what you mean but I find it less difficult to keep the handle horizontal on impact than hitting in the right spot.

[Francis Trez Cole]

As I have posted before it is not the most effective hot cut. A straight cut has the same amount of surface contact.

[Everything Mac]

On 17/08/2016 at 7:34 PM, littleblacksmith said:

My thoughts on this is that yes the round die of a rounding hammer is better than the flat die, and especially if you have bad hammer control. If you cut with the flat side of the hammer and don't hit the bar you are cutting squarely, than it tends to dent the material were as, the round side not only has less surface area contact (the bar stays hotter longer) but it also has more room for error. Same with the Brazeal style hot cut that has a curved edge, it has less surface area contact and, in my experience, cuts better. 

                                                                                                                    Littleblacksmith

I've seen these phrases battered about the place a lot recently. To me they're the buzzwords of blacksmithing on the internet right now. I've seen Brian work in the flesh, he's a nice guy and you really can't argue with some of his techniques.

BUT.... most of what you've repeated here is BS. IF you don't hit squarely then surely you have poor hammer control? If you have poor hammer control one could argue you need to practice a bit more and perhaps shouldn't be using a hot cut at all.

As for bending / denting the stock you're cutting, - so what? If in the somewhat unlikely event I've bent or dented the piece slightly I'll just heat it up and correct it. If it really matters then I won't be hot cutting it at all, I'll use a chop saw or band saw.

My time is precious but I'm not going to fuss over an extra hit to straighten a bar or "limit surface area contact to reduce heat loss".

How much heat is lost I wonder? Is my anvil completely cold to the touch? I'll wager that a warm anvil face would save just as much "heat loss" as limiting surface area contact. To me it's a nice idea in theory but I can't see it saving me even a minute over the course of a day of forging.

I've tried curved hot cuts. There is not a single video online I've seen where the smith doesn't have his work fall off the hot cut. Not only that the large radius on most of them effectively reduces your working area to about one third of the tool. The outer edges are absolutely useless.

In my experience they cut no better than a flat hot cut at all.

 

JHCC you've done good work on your hot cut. I hope it serves you well.

Andy

[John McPherson]

The advantage that I have found in a curved face hot cut is that an angled blow from the hammer is less likely to nick the hammer face. Very handy when in use by students, or when you are working tired.

[gote]

I agree with Andy with the slight variation that I cut with the grinder if the stock is cold and with the hot cut if the stock is hot. I have not (touch wood ) yet hit the (straight) edge of my present hot cut. Of course I am careful and turn the stock before the cut is through and I bend off the last with tongs. There is practically always enough heat left to allow straighetning of any residual bends.

Since I hold the stock with my left hand perpendicularly to the edge of the cut, I would need to tilt the hammer forward or backwards to hit the edge and again this is just a matter of holding the hammer handle at the right height - something I find easy - but I have hit a few nails in my youth and any slant would bend the nail.    

[Alan Evans]

When using a hot cut I find it advantageous to plunge the workpiece into the water bucket for a second or two, after hitting it down onto the hot cut, the only bit that is chilled is the ismuth left from the part cut, and because it is cold the end will break off clean rather than having to bend and twist with your tongs. You obviously have to be a bit quick or the residual heat will travel back into the ismuth almost as quickly.

With this method you do not need to risk going so close to the hot set with the hammer face. 

A straight edged hot set will produce a parallel strip/hinge/ismuth which will break cleaner and more readily than the hinge left by a curved edge hot set. The more ragged edge left by the curved tool will require a few more blows to clean up and consolidate. But probably not enough difference between them in the real world to worry anyone. 

Alan

[gote]

Interesting tip. I would never have thought about it. I would be afraid to lose the residual heat that allows me to clean up the cut without an extra heat. Will try it.