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I Forge Iron

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Gfreak

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Hey guys. I'm wanting to learn more about swordsmithing and the like. And was hoping I could get pointed in the direction of some good material for learning how to start forging blades.

Now to get this out of the way, I know it's probably a better path to learn on small blades; knives, trinkets, general blacksmithing etc... but pure honesty here, i'm not too interested in making those as this is going to simply be a possible side hobby. And I don't mean for that to come across as disrespectful or egotistical. I'm fully expecting to make some absolutely terrible blades many times before i forge anything worth holding lol.

Now, I can't spend a ton of money unless it's in small batches over time (i.e. would rather learn from books/dvd's than taking classes somewhere to pay for it). As i don't make a whole lot of money. I love what I do, but my chosen profession isn't exactly the most lucrative (atleast for now...we'll see in the future where I can take it)

As far as the forge, the one I was looking at making involved the 55gallon drum, and making it charcoal fueled.

So yea, any advice or starting points for that would be great!

Thanks

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48 minutes ago, Gfreak said:

Now to get this out of the way, I know it's probably a better path to learn on small blades; knives, trinkets, general blacksmithing etc... but pure honesty here, i'm not too interested in making those as this is going to simply be a possible side hobby.

Your saying you want to drive a Formula 1 race car but have never driven a car. You have to know how the metal moves which requires hammer time at a forge.

Pack a lunch and a cold drink and go to the knife section of the site.  Buy Steve Sells book on Introduction to Knifemaking from the IFI store. Buy the books by Dr. Jim Hrisoulas, currently 3 and he is working on #4.

Build a forge and get some hammer time. It will answer a lot of your questions.

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Welcome aboard, glad to have you. I wish I remembered who said it but a bladesmith with a world wide reputation was asked how long it took him to make his first sword. To paraphrase he said, " Fifteen years." and he was already a proficient blacksmith before that. If you want to learn advanced blacksmithing while learning advanced grinding and polishing I hope you have a high tolerance to failure.

I'm not trying to discourage you, I LOVE looking at the blades some of the guys here make and I'd love to see more guys producing exquisitely beautiful blades. I'd truly prefer to see you learn how to do it in steps that won't make you throw in the towel after a couple few years of failures.

How do you expect to forge a sword if you don't know how to make the steel do what you want under the hammer? That's the easy part, it's a complex high precision craft, even wall hangers take shop skills you don't just buy a grinder and do. There is a serious learning curve you can not skip with any hope of success.

Frosty The Lucky.

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6 hours ago, Gfreak said:

Hey guys. I'm wanting to learn more about swordsmithing and the like. And was hoping I could get pointed in the direction of some good material for learning how to start forging blades.

START BY READING THE PINNED POSTS.

Now to get this out of the way, I know it's probably a better path to learn on small blades; knives, trinkets, general blacksmithing etc... but pure honesty here, i'm not too interested in making those as this is going to simply be a possible side hobby. And I don't mean for that to come across as disrespectful or egotistical. I'm fully expecting to make some absolutely terrible blades many times before i forge anything worth holding lol.

I AM NOT TO INTERESTED IN SPENDING TIME ON A PERSON THAT STARTS BY TELLING ME WHAT HE WONT DO.   LISTEN TO WHAT HAS BEEN EXPLAINED IN DETAIL MANY TIMES ALREADY.

Now, I can't spend a ton of money unless it's in small batches over time (i.e. would rather learn from books/dvd's than taking classes somewhere to pay for it). As i don't make a whole lot of money. I love what I do, but my chosen profession isn't exactly the most lucrative (at least for now...we'll see in the future where I can take it)

YOU WAY YOU ARE GOING TO THROW AWAY MANY THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON FAILED SWORDS.  CLASSES WILL SAVE YOU MONEY

As far as the forge, the one I was looking at making involved the 55gallon drum, and making it charcoal fueled.

So yea, any advice or starting points for that would be great!

START BY READING THE PINNED POSTS

 

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"I'm fully expecting to make some absolutely terrible blades many times before i forge anything worth holding lol."

And you would. But your also not looking to spend a ton of money at once. Well if you do your research and start small you won't be mangling the expensive larger amount of steel as you would by working on your hammer skills first then moving on to smaller blades to get to know what you are doing. 

I don't personally see how someone couldn't start off "trying" to make swords off the bat, but even with all the research in place and the drive and determination that would be a Very expensive start with possibly years of failure. The money in materials you could waste would probably be way more then taking a class or working with someone knowledgable.

The replies you got are the best advice and starting points that you asked for. Do your research. There is a ton of information out there, both good and bad. Without the basics and hands on experience with starting small it's hard to understand or weed through. 

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Think of it this way: the turn around time on swords is so slow you are likely to forget little details  you learned the hard way before the next time you need to use them.

Making knives you can pound in a "learning experience" into your habits fast; you can also do a lot of your destructive testing on things you spent a weekend making and not 6 months.

It's actually *faster* to learn to make a decent sword by learning the basics doing smaller blades and then working your way up.  Sort of like learning to drive on the family car and then start learning how the race car drives  rather than crashing a lot of expensive race cars learning how the clutch/brake/accelerator work.

So to me "I'm not interested in doing smaller stuff" reads as "I'm not interested in learning to forge swords; I just want to forge swords"

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Ok that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the kind responses everyone i'll check out the the knive forging section when i get off work tonight.

 

And yes I had read the pinned posts Steve.

 

still along those same lines, is there any reading material that y'all would recommend? Because I know how online information can be, especially regarding something like this.

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Glenn gave you good advise for reading material in the above post:

Buy Steve Sells book on Introduction to Knifemaking from the IFI store. Buy the books by Dr. Jim Hrisoulas, currently 3 and he is working on #4.

Also I second the suggestions to take a class.  I've been forging blades for several years now and still took a class in sword smithing before making one to avoid costly and dangerous mistakes.  The latter is the real concern.  Honestly I don't care if you go broke experimenting with making swords (it is possible to be successful without training or making knives first, just very unlikely), but you, or innocent bystanders, can get badly hurt by mistakes made in their manufacture.  That is what I am concerned about.

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Doesn't this seem to be covered by the saying " A Long Journey starts with the First Step"  If it was easy to become a "Sword Making Expert" every one would become one over night.  Why do the real good sword maker have YEARS of experience behind them?  Good Luck on your Journey.

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I'm sorry, I mean any other sources other than what had already been mentioned in this thread.

And as far as dangers, what specifically are you talking about? Wouldn't many of the dangers of sword forging be present in knife forging as well? I'll look for classes, but i can't say that i'll be able to afford it right now..maybe in the future.

 

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Simple physics. Forces exerted on a 6" knife don't have the moment of leverage the same forces have on a 30" sword. If a knife blade gets caught by a grinder it gets jerked out of your hand if a sword does it's likely to slap you in the face just before it breaks and sends shrapnel around the shop. Sure it's an extreme example but it's the extremes that maim and kill people.

I had a friend wire brushing a forged blade a couple years back, a neighbor walking by his garage noticed his belt grinder had been running all morning but not being worked. He found a bladesmith with DECADES of experience laying on the floor with the knife blade driven into his heart. The wire wheel grabbed it and he wasn't far enough out of the plane of rotation and it killed him. He was probably dead before hitting the floor. A real life extreme example of what can happen to a pretty common occurrence.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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Well Gfreak if you were in the USA you could look into the classes the ABS American Bladesmith Society offers; If you are in the UK I could dig out a couple of names of smiths that teach blades; Can't help you for the rest of the world.  But give a shout out where you are at and we can probably find you some help.

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Swords are larger and more prone to hitting vulnerable parts of the body when swung around or tested on random cutting objects (especially if they break during this testing).  If you are just looking to make something that looks like a sword, but will never be used (wall-hanger), you might want to try working in aluminum with a hacksaw, files and sandpaper.  That will be a lot easier and cheaper (though I would still avoid sharpening it as aluminum can cut very effectively, just won't hold an edge).  For a sword, improperly designed and fabricated proportions, weight placement and associated resonance nodes can easily lead to breakage(there was even a forged in fire "expert" who had his sword catastrophically fail during testing and a section scythed off during use).  Tang geometry and connections can be critical as are handle assembly, crossbars/guards...  Heat treatment is critical, more difficult than with knives, and needs to result in a different outcome.

As far as forging a sword dangers, the size of the billet and manipulating same in the forge, at the anvil and at the grinder (forging the billet is only a small part of overall sword making, wait till you try draw filing or grinding those long bevels) present additional challenges over smaller knife making.

Respectfully, right now you don't know enough to be properly cautious or even ask the right questions.  Start with Jim's first book and learn a bit about what is involved.  If you can't imagine the difference between the danger of making and using a 2-4 lb. 36" long piece of sharpened metal instead of a couple ounces of 6-8" long knife then you are going to be asking for a Darwin award.

There are some great "sickies" in this forum covering this issue.  Please read them carefully.

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16 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Well Gfreak if you were in the USA you could look into the classes the ABS American Bladesmith Society offers; If you are in the UK I could dig out a couple of names of smiths that teach blades; Can't help you for the rest of the world.  But give a shout out where you are at and we can probably find you some help.

i'm in Missouri City Texas, southwest a bit of Houston.

I understand what y'all are saying about safety. both in using the weapon and in the shop. Eventually I'll be wanting to make something sharper yes, but not right away by any means. My current profession is a Martial Arts instructor, so I know exactly what can happen with badly made weapons.

Before that I was an Auto tech in a shop as well, so i've seen things there too and know general shop safety. Was just asking about things specific to this.

Thank you for all the direction in terms of resources, when I get back from work I will definitely be reading through all of them.

I also don't want y'all to think i'm taking this lightly from a safety perspective i'm doing research now and i'm not planning on actually trying to get started until the end of the month. I know how things can end if you jump into something without knowing how to keep things as safe as possible.

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Mr. G. F.

Infants usually crawl before they learn to stand up, and stand up  before they start to walk.

Blacksmithing is fun but it is dangerous work in an unforgiving environment.It took me a while, and some practice, before I could consistently hammer a piece of hot iron in the same spot. I put some divots in my anvil before the "lesson" was learned. Beware of smiths that make it look easy. Simplicity, and efficiency looks like a piece of cake. But that comes with knowledge and hours of practice.

I am not typing this sermon to yank your chain. But I am concerned that you might become a nasty statistic. Or, quit early on, when things initially do not work out.

Good luck.

SLAG.

 

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I wonder if you let your students decide to skip white belt because they read a book and watched a DVD and do not want to waste money learning stances and punches, because they decided they think that they can walk, breath and punch good enough already right ?  before you answer, know that I also hold a Godan in Jujitsu myself. there is no way any responsible person would allow a student to dictate how they are trained.

 

 Something to think about. I am done

 

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6 minutes ago, Steve Sells said:

I wonder if you let your students decide to skip white belt because they read a book and watched a DVD and do not want to waste money learning stances and punches, because they decided they think that they can walk, breath and punch good enough already right ?  before you answer, know that I also hold a Godan in Jujitsu myself. there is no way any responsible person would allow a student to dictate how they are trained.

 

 Something to think about. I am done

 

Did you miss the part where I said that I see and understand the points y'all made, and would be starting in the knife section? I understand if you're concerned about safety. But I still feel like you're way to hostile for someone asking questions, and then agreeing with you when you post in response....

And thank you @thomas, will defintely check that out.

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You need to know that we have answered the *I want to make a sword* comment many times. We grow weary of repeating information that took a long while to assemble into a presentable format only to have the next fellow ask us to write the entire thesis again.

We now ask them to read the knife section, books, learn about blacksmithing, and then come back and tell or show us what they have done or accomplished. Armchair blacksmiths are quickly separated from someone that builds a forge and actually puts in some hammer time. We can then answer specific questions. We will usually match their interest with information, offer suggestions and encouragement as they have shown us they tried.

We want you to succeed, and your success is directly tied to your safety. Blacksmithing is hot, heavy, sharp, and dangerous. YOU MUST learn how to avoid getting injured or killed in order to succeed. That is why we push safety. We all have scars from the lessons we learned.

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7 hours ago, Glenn said:

You need to know that we have answered the *I want to make a sword* comment many times. We grow weary of repeating information that took a long while to assemble into a presentable format only to have the next fellow ask us to write the thesis again.

We now ask them to read the knife section, books, learn about blacksmithing, and then come back and tell or show us what they have done or accomplished. Armchair blacksmiths are quickly separated from someone that builds a forge and actually puts in some hammer time. We can then answer specific questions. We will usually match their interest with information, offer suggestions and encouragement as they have shown us they tried.

We want you to succeed, and your success is directly tied to your safety. Blacksmithing is hot, heavy, sharp, and dangerous. YOU MUST learn how to avoid getting injured or killed in order to succeed. That is why we push safety. We all have scars from the lessons we learned.

And I appreciate it, I really do.

I'll be back then. Thanks!

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I suggest that you do not leave. (grin)

Hang in there and read the new posts as they are posted to the site. You will find a wealth of information added every day and will  understand the flavor of the site and the personal exchange between the membership.

Those that were originally perceived as hard shelled curmudgeons are most helpful when you show them what you did and ask for assistance. They just want to know how far you have progressed so they do not have to start explaining how to make dirt in order to dig a hole in the ground to make a forge. After all a forge is nothing more than a hole in the ground raised to a convenient height so you do not have to stoop over.  For instance we can now start to explain why you need a 2 pound hammer instead of a 10 pound hammer to forge with, and why London pattern anvils are only about 200 years old. For thousands of years, old time blacksmiths had to make do without such a wonderful tool, and did quite well.  In fact 50 years ago there was no internet and somehow they still managed.

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9 hours ago, Glenn said:

I suggest that you do not leave. (grin)

Hang in there and read the new posts as they are posted to the site. You will find a wealth of information added every day and will  understand the flavor of the site and the personal exchange between the membership.

Those that were originally perceived as hard shelled curmudgeons are most helpful when you show them what you did and ask for assistance. They just want to know how far you have progressed so they do not have to start explaining how to make dirt in order to dig a hole in the ground to make a forge. After all a forge is nothing more than a hole in the ground raised to a convenient height so you do not have to stoop over.  For instance we can now start to explain why you need a 2 pound hammer instead of a 10 pound hammer to forge with, and why London pattern anvils are only about 200 years old. For thousands of years, old time blacksmiths had to make do without such a wonderful tool, and did quite well.  In fact 50 years ago there was no internet and somehow they still managed.

I didn't so much mean "leaving" as in I'll be posting again later on and just reading haha.

 

This weekend i'll be trying to get everything together to make a forge. As for an anvil, there's a guy selling pieces of I-Beams nearby. Would an I-beam work for that?

I have a set of ball peen hammers from my time as an auto tech, and a friend is giving me an old short sledge that he had.

 

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NO NO NO NO NO!  In blacksmithing what the hammer "sees" is the amount or wrought iron/steel between it and the stand  so for almost all the I beam what you get is a thin "bouncy" plate that is VERY LOUD INDEED!  Far better to get a solid chunk of steel and use that as an anvil.

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