Frosty "T burner help

[Frosty]

I beg to differ with Buzz on this one even if he's one of the guys who can make a NA burner do the dance with him. My difference sounds minor but it's more significant than it sound. Changing mig tips is a BIG adjustment. Visualize like the throttle pedal in your car. To go a little faster you give it a LITTLE more pedal. Yes? Pedal difference between cruising the boulevard at 45mph. and the freeway at 65mph. isn't a 50% increase in pedal.

The other difference is the recommendation of when to change mig tips. The jet (end of the mig tip where gas exits) being 1/2 way across the intake ports is no big deal. Even 3/4 way across isn't serious but you're approaching the point of diminishing returns. 

I START trimming my jets from the 50% position. (1/2 way across as viewed through the intake ports) I trim starting with 1/32" and depending on the effects continue another 1/32" or take less off, usually less. I file length and torch tip file to clean the the burs. Remember to reinstall the burner IN the forge light it up and evaluate the burn. Buzz and I are on the same page regarding flame chemistry, neutral to SLIGHTLY reducing.(rich)

The essence of the difference is in large part the heart of why I run such large jets. The REASON for a burner is to put as much burning fuel/air mix in your forge per second as possible while blowing as LITTLE as possible on through and out the door.  

Anyway, the trade offs are pretty straight forward. To put the same BTUs at a specific absolute flame temperature so many cubic feet of propane and the appropriate amount of  ambient air have to pass the burner per second. Making sense so far?

The arithmetic is easy without going into the actual calculations, I eyeball it I don't do specific #s. For any given volume of liquid or gas to pass through an opening (or pipe) it MUST travel at a specific velocity.  As a gross example fill a 10 gal. bucket through a garden hose or road culvert. A minute with the hose or so fast the momentum of the water snatches you off the side of the road.  Follow so far?

To put a welding heat's quantity of fuel/air into a forge volume of 300 cu/in, the gas jet must emit propane at a volume and speed to induce the correct volume of air.  Yes? The carrying capacity of a round  orifice of tube is a product of the  cross section area and the area is the square of the radius. Yes? Increase the diameter x.5 and the area increase is x2. The total BTUs increase double.  An 0.035" tip is about 50% larger than a 0.025" tip and will carry about 2x the volume per given speed or pressure.

This means basically the flame is moving at 1/2 the velocity being pushed by a 0.035 mig tip for a given BTU or temperature. 

The short story with all this Frosty rambling is welding temp in my forge blows MAYBE 3"- 4" of dragon's breath rather than 6"+ And better still my tanks don't freeze so quickly and 20 lbs. lasts a solid 8hrs. Why? The flame stays IN the forge chamber longer.

So, don't worry about changing to a smaller mig tip till the jet is trimmed to say <3/16" from the fitting at the back of the T. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Oh yeah yeah; sure you invented the thing, and been studying it for  twenty years, but what-ta you know, huh ?

[chris freeman]

OK I have a feeling that my Forge is losing way too much heat and that’s why I cannot get up to welding temperature because my forge will not hold in heat. Also I finally got my Venturi burners working and I think their tune pretty OK. Again I still wish I had somebody here that can help me in person but it is what it is. I am using .025 tips cut down about 1/16” so that the Meg tip is about halfway through the T. Whenever I run it on about 8 to 10 psi flames shoot up through the holes that the nipples are in but they’re not going up into the tease at least. They are trying to sputter every great once in a while though. I am still thinking about usingWhenever I run it on about 8 to 10 psi flames shoot up to the holes that the nipples are in but they’re not going up into the tease at least. They are trying to sputter every great once in a while though. I am still thinking about using trying the .030 tips just to see. Monday I will be going to the blacksmith Monday I will be going to the blacksmith  and farrier shop to get Either more wall either more kao wool or some bricks or both. I’m thinking about squaring off the inside of the forge. Anyways, more to come and more to forge. 
Chris

 

[chris freeman]

On 12/20/2019 at 6:39 PM, Frosty said:

I beg to differ with Buzz on this one even if he's one of the guys who can make a NA burner do the dance with him. My difference sounds minor but it's more significant than it sound. Changing mig tips is a BIG adjustment. Visualize like the throttle pedal in your car. To go a little faster you give it a LITTLE more pedal. Yes? Pedal difference between cruising the boulevard at 45mph. and the freeway at 65mph. isn't a 50% increase in pedal.

The other difference is the recommendation of when to change mig tips. The jet (end of the mig tip where gas exits) being 1/2 way across the intake ports is no big deal. Even 3/4 way across isn't serious but you're approaching the point of diminishing returns. 

I START trimming my jets from the 50% position. (1/2 way across as viewed through the intake ports) I trim starting with 1/32" and depending on the effects continue another 1/32" or take less off, usually less. I file length and torch tip file to clean the the burs. Remember to reinstall the burner IN the forge light it up and evaluate the burn. Buzz and I are on the same page regarding flame chemistry, neutral to SLIGHTLY reducing.(rich)

The essence of the difference is in large part the heart of why I run such large jets. The REASON for a burner is to put as much burning fuel/air mix in your forge per second as possible while blowing as LITTLE as possible on through and out the door.  

Anyway, the trade offs are pretty straight forward. To put the same BTUs at a specific absolute flame temperature so many cubic feet of propane and the appropriate amount of  ambient air have to pass the burner per second. Making sense so far?

The arithmetic is easy without going into the actual calculations, I eyeball it I don't do specific #s. For any given volume of liquid or gas to pass through an opening (or pipe) it MUST travel at a specific velocity.  As a gross example fill a 10 gal. bucket through a garden hose or road culvert. A minute with the hose or so fast the momentum of the water snatches you off the side of the road.  Follow so far?

To put a welding heat's quantity of fuel/air into a forge volume of 300 cu/in, the gas jet must emit propane at a volume and speed to induce the correct volume of air.  Yes? The carrying capacity of a round  orifice of tube is a product of the  cross section area and the area is the square of the radius. Yes? Increase the diameter x.5 and the area increase is x2. The total BTUs increase double.  An 0.035" tip is about 50% larger than a 0.025" tip and will carry about 2x the volume per given speed or pressure.

This means basically the flame is moving at 1/2 the velocity being pushed by a 0.035 mig tip for a given BTU or temperature. 

The short story with all this Frosty rambling is welding temp in my forge blows MAYBE 3"- 4" of dragon's breath rather than 6"+ And better still my tanks don't freeze so quickly and 20 lbs. lasts a solid 8hrs. Why? The flame stays IN the forge chamber longer.

So, don't worry about changing to a smaller mig tip till the jet is trimmed to say <3/16" from the fitting at the back of the T. 

Frosty The Lucky.

It does put things into perspective. Honestly I didn’t see this post until after I posted the one today. I honestly feel that adequate insulation in the Forge next to huge difference as well as far as getting up to Welding heat. Right? So you’re saying I should start With a 0.035 mpg tip but trim it down? Hopefully the pictures that I sent Today can explain a little more on how things are running.

[chris freeman]

If that bad? That’s at 7.5 psi. I’ve said before like on my last post that yes I know my forge does not hold in heat worth a darn. I’m wondering if I should close those  holes that the nipples are going into off completely.

[Jasent]

What is your liner? Looks like just wool to me? 

[Mikey98118]

In the photo, both burners appear to have gas leaking from their joints, between the mixing tube and "T" fitting; despite being taped. The forge's exhaust flame is HEAVILY reducing. Given both problems at one time, I will take a shot in the dark, and make a guess that both problems are coming from something very wrong with your gas jets.

[Buzzkill]

On 12/20/2019 at 7:39 PM, Frosty said:

I beg to differ with Buzz on this

I'll pretty much always defer to the designer. 

My comparatively limited experience has been that if the flame is still way too rich when the mig tip is less than halfway across the opening then I'm probably not going to get it tuned by trimming.  If I'm just a little too rich then I'll keep trimming for sure.

Having said that, if the choice is following my path or listening to the designer, I'll always recommend that others listen to the designer over anything I have to say on the matter.

[Teachagmech]

12 hours ago, chris freeman said:

If that bad? That’s at 7.5 psi. I’ve said before like on my last post that yes I know my forge does not hold in heat worth a darn. I’m wondering if I should close those  holes that the nipples are going into off completely.

Does your forge have a way for gasses to get out?  It looks sealed. You have to think of the whole thing like a tunnel not a tank. If you don’t have flow through the whole system, you’ll never draw in enough air to make it work correctly. 
 

I would seal up the gaps around the burner tubes as the jet of flames is consuming oxygen from around the air intake of the burners. 
 

when I want to hold in more heat, I set a brick in front to reflect the heat back, but still let’s the exhaust out. Using a refractory kiln wash also helps a lot with heat retention

[Frosty]

Truth is Buzz, you have a pretty good handle on how these things work and I leave can it to you.

Unfortunately Chris has NO idea what he's doing and keeps changing several things at once and hoping. So, the more suggestions that come out of the internet the more things he tries at once and the farther in the hole he goes. His response to being confused is to gather more information but doesn't know enough to tell good from bad. 

He can't or he's so stuck on what HE THINKS he won't read the basic cues. There are flames shooting OUT of his burner sleeves so he needs to close the forge up tighter?  That's like saying my backpack was too heavy, so I put another 6 pack in and it's still too heavy. What color should it be? 

His burners MAY need the large change of a different mig tip but he's so confused now if a change doesn't work he'll just start changing mig tips and get farther behind. 

Chris: The above wasn't to be rude but I needed to talk to all the folks blasting you with often contradictory suggestions. I've explained this I don't know how many hundreds maybe thousands of times so I'm not going to spend a lot of time with you. 

I was too vague in my above statement. There is a PRIME RULE of trouble shooting, which is exactly what tuning a burner is. Make ONLY ONE change at a time, test observe and note. By note I mean WRITE IT DOWN. Little spiral note pads are cheap, I recently bought four for $0.79. Keep notes.

First thing to DO is STOP watching Youtube or other how to videos. Most are junk some outright dangerous, sure there are good ones but you don't know enough to tell which are which so stop watching ANY OF THEM.

Next. there are only a few guys to listen to as of NOW. Mikey is better at reading flame than I am, listen to him. There are a number of others who know what's what and I just deleted the list, you're already reading too many opinions and suggestions. I know how to tune a T burner but I''m not going to argue with you.

About the problems you're having. Where did you get the idea closing the forge up will make it hotter? It can NOT hold heat that isn't there. The T burner is (Naturally Aspirated) meaning it draws it's own combustion air rather than air being forced in by a blower. (Gun Burner) Being NA the flame has to be free to move or it prevents the burner from drawing enough air. This is called "Back Pressure".

The more you close your forge down the worse it WILL perform. Flames being blown out around your burners is like someone  screaming at you. 

OPEN IT UP! It's not possible to tune your burners closed up like it is. 

Please don't post a dozen pictures or videos, one or two still pics is all we need. One in the door when you light it and another across the doorway once it's warmed up so we can see the flame exhausting from the forge. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Merry Christmas to all

[chris freeman]

23 hours ago, Jasent said:

What is your liner? Looks like just wool to me? 

It’s wool with refractory

9 hours ago, Frosty said:

Truth is Buzz, you have a pretty good handle on how these things work and I leave can it to you.

Unfortunately Chris has NO idea what he's doing and keeps changing several things at once and hoping. So, the more suggestions that come out of the internet the more things he tries at once and the farther in the hole he goes. His response to being confused is to gather more information but doesn't know enough to tell good from bad. 

He can't or he's so stuck on what HE THINKS he won't read the basic cues. There are flames shooting OUT of his burner sleeves so he needs to close the forge up tighter?  That's like saying my backpack was too heavy, so I put another 6 pack in and it's still too heavy. What color should it be? 

His burners MAY need the large change of a different mig tip but he's so confused now if a change doesn't work he'll just start changing mig tips and get farther behind. 

Chris: The above wasn't to be rude but I needed to talk to all the folks blasting you with often contradictory suggestions. I've explained this I don't know how many hundreds maybe thousands of times so I'm not going to spend a lot of time with you. 

I was too vague in my above statement. There is a PRIME RULE of trouble shooting, which is exactly what tuning a burner is. Make ONLY ONE change at a time, test observe and note. By note I mean WRITE IT DOWN. Little spiral note pads are cheap, I recently bought four for $0.79. Keep notes.

First thing to DO is STOP watching Youtube or other how to videos. Most are junk some outright dangerous, sure there are good ones but you don't know enough to tell which are which so stop watching ANY OF THEM.

Next. there are only a few guys to listen to as of NOW. Mikey is better at reading flame than I am, listen to him. There are a number of others who know what's what and I just deleted the list, you're already reading too many opinions and suggestions. I know how to tune a T burner but I''m not going to argue with you.

About the problems you're having. Where did you get the idea closing the forge up will make it hotter? It can NOT hold heat that isn't there. The T burner is (Naturally Aspirated) meaning it draws it's own combustion air rather than air being forced in by a blower. (Gun Burner) Being NA the flame has to be free to move or it prevents the burner from drawing enough air. This is called "Back Pressure".

The more you close your forge down the worse it WILL perform. Flames being blown out around your burners is like someone  screaming at you. 

OPEN IT UP! It's not possible to tune your burners closed up like it is. 

Please don't post a dozen pictures or videos, one or two still pics is all we need. One in the door when you light it and another across the doorway once it's warmed up so we can see the flame exhausting from the forge. 

Frosty The Lucky.

I apologize for sounding and acting to clueless about all of this. This is the first time I’ve built, ran or even owned an NA forge. It seems to me that I’ve tried everything but obviously I haven’t. Obviously I keep changing everything up all at once. Thanks for the help.
Merry Christmas 

Chris

[chris freeman]

56 minutes ago, chris freeman said:

It’s wool with refractory

I apologize for sounding and acting to clueless about all of this. This is the first time I’ve built, ran or even owned an NA forge. It seems to me that I’ve tried everything but obviously I haven’t. Obviously I keep changing everything up all at once. Thanks for the help.
Merry Christmas 

Chris

Honestly It seems that I’ve tried every variation and modification and nothing seems to work. It’s seriously throwing me for a loop. I’m gonna go over everything one more time and like you said take notes and see if I can figure it out. Very frustrating. I’ll get it though.

[Teachagmech]

46 minutes ago, chris freeman said:

Honestly It seems that I’ve tried every variation and modification and nothing seems to work. It’s seriously throwing me for a loop. I’m gonna go over everything one more time and like you said take notes and see if I can figure it out. Very frustrating. I’ll get it though.

The one thing that’s obviously a wild card to me is your elevation. I’d be tempted to build a blown forge with a ribbon style burner if I lived that high up. That being said, I think you can still make a working forge, welding temps just might be really hard to reach. 
 

Like frosty said, change only one thing at a time and take notes. The first thing I would try is opening the door/taking it off. Then observe the difference in flame character from where it was in the last pics. Go from there. You’re probably still going to want to seal up around the burner tubes. 

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, chris freeman said:

Honestly It seems that I’ve tried every variation and modification and nothing seems to work. It’s seriously throwing me for a loop.

That's exactly what I'm talking about, you've tried EVERY variation without knowing what one does let along in combinations.

Do ONE thing at a time. Each change might take several minor adjustments to get right. That means ONE change can change a number of other characteristics say one change might mean 4 adjustments. Change two things and the necessary adjustments increase geometrically instead of 4 you might have 32. Change 4 things and . . . it's like counting grains of sand on the beach.

I don't mind helping folks but you're jumping all over the map and nothing I can do can overcome that kind of chaos. It'd make any of us loopy. 

Another thing, the forge and burner aren't two different things, they are one machine a change in one changes the other and each might require adjustments. Changes to the forge magnify the needed adjustments to the burner.

Oh, forget about the pressure gauge. The only significant good one can do is make repeating specific temperatures in your forge. Say medium yellow is perfect for forging one type steel but you need high yellow to weld. You do projects involving both but not at the same time. You go out set the pressure, light up and you don't have to fiddle to find the right temp. Make sense?

Until you reach that point a pressure gauge is no use to you. It makes no difference, zero, zip what somebody else's burners work under. The only one you're interested in is yours. Yes?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

In other words, make a change and take a photo. Interact with us each time. Rinse and repeat. Work together with us, and get somewhere worthwhile, or not; your choice

[Kevin N]

My first burner. 

[Mikey98118]

Turn the gas pressure way up, and try again.

[Kevin N]

23 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Turn the gas pressure way up, and try again.

Ya, I got it going properly now. Had to get the jet lined up too, took me a couple days lol

[Mikey98118]

If you tie two of those top bricks together, you can use a hole saw to drill perfect half holes into them. Afterward you can place the burner through the whole they form, and increase forge heat.