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Yes I used the molochite as well. It stabilises and to an extent counteracts shrinking during drying process. (Digitalfire has a nice definition of grog and its uses)

I dug up an earlier post and found the ratios. Will work without paper fibre, too.

- Zircon             66.91%     (or 82.19% minus water and paper)
- Bentone         2.23%       (or 2.74% minus water and paper)
- Molochite     12.27%     (or 15.07% minus water and paper)

- Paper fiber     3.72%
- Water             14.87%

 

And below is the part I mentioned. I had it fired at my ceramics supplier.

IMG_20180310_110637.thumb.jpg.09e13e454dc27992d08b2f68ced377e4.jpg

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Considering I am not a ceramicists by any stretch, I have no informed opinion on using any other type of fiber. I imagine that as long as the filler burns away in the firing process the results will be similar.

I decided on paper fibre because it is easy to make and I liked that it improves green strength. (I knew I needed to transport the piece prior to firing). In  theory the cavities left after firing would improve insulating propperies but since the piece is only about 1 cm thick I that that is negligible in my case. 

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Mr. Mikey,

Carboxymethyl cellulose is water soluble. The organic acid moieties    (OH-C=O) make it water soluble and reactive.

It is even used in toothpaste formulations,  etc.,  etc.

Would that preclude its use in gas forge linings?

SLAG.

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7 hours ago, MonkeyForge said:

In  theory the cavities left after firing would improve insulating propperies but since the piece is only about 1 cm thick I that that is negligible in my case. 

This one of the reasons I thought your formula is superior to his, Zircon is somewhat insulating, as well as radiating; not as much as zirconia (oxide instead of silicon oxide), but without its problems. It seems to me that the tiny little voids left in the refractory should do a very nice job of increasing insulation; thus acting in concert with re-emission to enhance performance.

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5 hours ago, SLAG said:

Would that preclude its use in gas forge linings?

Don't think so, because it is being used by some to replace the Veegum T; also, it is used in clay slip formulas, and is a common binder ingredient in refractory formulas. However, refractory and ceramic formulas may be the slipperiest rabbit hole (one with teeth) :D

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That's what I figured, SLAG. The answer was just the reason why I was curious too. I have no cue if this would actually work.

Refractories have left crafts like pottery behind; they are part of materials science these days. I'm still glad that Tony Hansen keeps on truckin, though. He makes it possible for me to play around on the very fringes :)

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Monkeyforge thank you for the info. the topic is near and dear to my heart as I have wasted a lot of time thinking about similar liners. There are some real advantages to being able to build a forge starting with the interior first as well as the Zircopax content.  Your percentages are by weight, right? Have you fired your liner yet? I am very interested to hear the results after some real use in a forge.  

How was the material to handle when green? Did it stick together well or was it a struggle to get your shapes? 

 

Quote below blank intentionally just so you would see the percentage question. 8-)

On 1/9/2021 at 10:43 AM, MonkeyForge said:

I dug up an earlier post and found the ratios. Will work without paper fibre, too.

- Zircon             66.91%     (or 82.19% minus water and paper)
- Bentone         2.23%       (or 2.74% minus water and paper)
- Molochite     12.27%     (or 15.07% minus water and paper)

- Paper fiber     3.72%
- Water             14.87%

 

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Always happy to share. All percentages are by weight. I mixed the components dry before adding the water. After the water is mixed in the material feels and molds like clay but it is very sticky, so be aware of that.  

I used a mould to make two tiles, one I left flat to become the floor, the other one I draped over a tube to get the half cylinder. Photo if the mould below. (Can't find a picture of the tube unfortunately)

I had everything fired with their porcelain. So in the ballpark of 1300/1350 degrees C.

Building the forge from the outside in had its own challenges, mainly because I did not have a shell. Found one that was close enough , found a use for refractory mortar and built an extension out if kiln shelf. Screenshot_20210111-233024_WhatsApp.thumb.png.b319ee405c9720e5772577ef679beccc.png

IMG_20180305_194232.thumb.jpg.3f1398335dd1d755084cc70fb458db1a.jpg

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On 1/9/2021 at 5:33 PM, Frosty said:

Don't you just LOVE this forum? I wonder if toothpaste might work as a refractory component?

That's a very interesting question, I can line my next forge with Colgate maybe.

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Mr. HB.,

Are you aware of the cost of Colgate toothpaste? it would probably be  exorbitant

Mr. Glenn would happily suggest something cheaper and more effective.

He deals in such goods. (and you could order it on line, from this site,  even).

Failing same Mr. Mikey and/or Mr. Frosty would,  probably , 'come through' with a suggestion.

Helpingly, Yours,

SLAG.

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5 hours ago, SLAG said:

Mr. HB.,

Are you aware of the cost of Colgate toothpaste? it would probably be  exorbitant

I was more being a smart xxx about that, but you make a good point.  Only problem is I'm in Canada so that usually kills any of these forum deals.

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Mr. H.W.K. B.X,

Wrote and I respectfully quote

"I was more being a smart xxx about that, but you make a good point.  Only problem is I'm in Canada so that usually kills any of these forum deals."

You will never definitively know that until you click on the "gas forge supplies", button on the top left of the page, in the shaded blue banner.

Alternatively, you can private message the site owner, Mr. Glenn Conner the vendor and Grand High Panjandrum of this site. (i.e.  I.F.I.).

I hope that helps.

SLAG.

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Thanks Thomas, I was making an ill-considered joke! Worse, I've gigged I don't know how many others for saying things that might get someone in trouble or injured. 

My B A D! Good catch Thomas, thank you.

Frosty The Lucky.

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On 1/11/2021 at 5:48 PM, MonkeyForge said:

I had everything fired with their porcelain. So in the ballpark of 1300/1350 degrees C.

Did they give you any grief when you wanted to get it fired? I have been concerned that a studio won't want to fire my experiments.

Thanks for the heads up on it being sticky. Nice to be prepared for it. 

I usually end up making my own exterior shells anyway as nothing seems to fit exactly what I want to make.

Frankenburner said he uses a hot foam cutter to make interior molds, I made one and am wanting to try it out. Now to order some Molochite grog...

 

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I hope this subject doesn't submerge beneath the waves, like last time. I consider it at least as important as proper insulation; it may turn out to be more important. Insulation doesn't double as "armor," but this armor doubles as insulation. Furthermore it is insulating at the best possible point--at the flame face.

That is before we even begin thinking about its use in flame retention nozzles, which is needed for ever hotter burners.

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On 1/12/2021 at 11:18 AM, ThomasPowers said:

I was afraid someone would try it as a joke and run into health problems...

Absolutely, I'd hate having someone suffer because I made a wise crack. I don't need that kind of thing on my conscience. Tanks again.

Frosty The Lucky.

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