Mikey98118

Forges 101

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I am also thinking on the point you brought up about the brick automatically creating a wide "lip." Very good thought, that. A wide lip can be created more than one way. The brain is thinking hard about these possibilities. Can you small the smoke? :)

 

"I've heard that working on Freon tanks can make you sick?"

When grinding wheels touch steel these days, your work is quickly past

 

Unlike the tools of yesterday, their wheels turn very fast

 

And when they cut, inside your tank the steel is turning red

 

Which means it's more than hot enough to make a nasty gas

 

Breath not one whiff, or you may find yourself quite sick, in bed

 

 Traces of fluorocarbons can remain in old Freon cylinders. Wash them out with soap and water before doing any kind of hot work on them, including abrasive cutting. I had to learn this one the hard way.

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Two holes drilled in the top end of an 'empty' Freon cylinder allows dish soap and water to be poured into one through a kitchen funnel, while the Freon atmosphere pours out of the other hole.

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I use compressed air to verify a clean can.

Open the valve first and make sure there is no pressure.  The jug should have been evacuated.  There is a safety blow disc at the top of the refrigerant jugs which is thinner than the can walls.  I use a center punch to pop a hole in it.  Then I push compressed air into the hole and let it blow out the valve for 5 seconds or so.  Very easy and quick.

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Stop using cut off disks for every DARN thing! Just because you have a tool doesn't make it THE one for the job. A freon, helium, propane, etc. tank cuts easily with a saber saw and you have much better control. You can cut 3/4" diameter round hole easily with a narrow blade in a saber saw. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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I had to look up saber saws as I couldn't remember which reciprocating saw that was.  I found this page on the difference between the sabre saw and the jigsaw.  I thought I'd share because one sentence made me laugh: "Thus, you still hear plenty of ‘older generations’ referring to contemporary jigsaws as saber saws."

They are great for cutting.  I use a plasma cutter for cutting the cans.  Though, tools are one of my vices. :P

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It is a matter of one's place in life. Over a lifetime of steel work, I've used and owned many tools. For the last twenty years I have confined myself to the absolute minimum of hand tools needed that are cheap and safe enough for a beginner to buy and learn. What point would there be for me to explain to a newbie how easily a burner can be turned out with a lathe-drill-mill for instance. Mine has been still for nearly two decades. The first one of my younger friends who finds room in his shop for it, and out the door it goes. The machinist chest is already history. Last summer a box full of angle grinders hit the trail. This summer I will do my last ornamental iron project in the garden, and the fire feed and chop saw will go by by. Been working on the bucket list for these last three years. Soon my garage will contain one work bench and a few hand tools; that's all beginners are willing ol afford, so that is the game board I play on :D

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22 minutes ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

I use a plasma cutter for cutting the cans.

Is this safe on freon tanks? Wouldn't that make phosgene gas from any residue? 

If you read the article thoroughly you'd realize I was in fact using the correct term for cutting steel with a . . . "reciprocating" saw. Of course you have to use a "saber" blade to cut metal. Kids these days. Sheesh! :rolleyes:

Frosty The Lucky.

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I always blow air through the can as described above, before cutting.  No problems that way.  If you plasma cut with residual refrigerant in the can, it is unpleasant in a lungs and eyes burning kind of way.

I couldn't help but point out the article.  I did read it thoroughly, good history.  No need for sabre-rattling. :D

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Funny I picked up a craftsman sabre saw at the scrapyard the other day as I have to build a doghouse out of OSB. 20 cents a pound and worked great.  The accompany drill needs a new cord...(my other saw was at my other house; it's going to be a real pain when I finally get to move home with all the "duplicates" on the other hand the grandkids should be ready for their first set of power tools...)

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17 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

it is unpleasant in a lungs and eyes burning kind of way.

Uh HUH. CFCs and energy, flame or UV makes phosgene and I'm not aware of how well blowing air through a tank will remove traces. The incident in a FatalGram was about a mechanic that died from phosgene poisoning generated by sprayed, chlorinated, carb cleaner and arc welding across the shop hours later. 

Does it smell like a mowed lawn? 

Frosty The Lucky.

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A mowed lawn... You know, I don't remember.  It has been a long while since I have accidentally burned refrigerant.  It is unpleasant enough that you immediately know to stop what you are doing and leave the area.  The air blown through the can seems to take care of it though.  I use the jugs for lots of stuff and have cut open dozens of them.  

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As long as people know that they need to take care, what method they choose is their own choice; but, ignorance leaves no choice...

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I'd rather see folks find something else for a shell than accidentally dose themselves. Phosgene is as ugly a toxin as you're likely to come across and it's crazy easy to make. Burning plastic does it. Sure, I probably just scared myself reading about phosgene poisoning but the dangerous quantity is VERY low, there is no antidote and the effects just keep on getting worse and spreading, a person should be afraid.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Watchful, yes; afraid, no. There is no end of dangers awaiting the thoughtless; but we still need to drive cars, get on planes, and live full lives...

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What you don't know can get you. Some things are rightly deserving of fear The threshold exposure to phosgene is well below what we can sense. Worse once exposed it can take weeks for the first symptoms to express. 

If the word fear is an issue how about respecting it's toxicity enough to remove all chlorinated cleaners from the shop. The hydrochloric acid is in a locker outside. The Sulfuric is in the locker in the shop but not the hydrochloric.

Have you done much reading about phosgene? We had to read about what to do when responding to toxic spills or fires with placards, etc. Part of being DOT road maintenance, we got called to spills and such. Me being me I looked into it a little deeper seeing as how excited the very mention made EMS. Some years ago a pain manufacturer's ware house burned the fire dept and responders evacuated the area for several blocks and let it burn itself out. 

I could be over reacting, sure.

Frosty The Lucky.

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While I am not advising anyone of anything here, especially not burning refrigerant and huffing it, some of the folks in the HVAC profession have burned lots of refrigerant and "manned" through it to finish the job.  I personally know a couple of those... people and they are still with us.  I had studied burned refrigerant, worried of killing myself at work.  It sounds like it is highly unlikely that phosgene gas will be produced by burning refrigerant.  The article stated that hydrofluoric acid and if the refrigerant contains chlorine, hydrochloric acid are what give the unpleasant breath.  Along with a host of other nasties.  I had also read that phosgene has a sweet, not unpleasant odor and that if you get enough of a dose to smell it, get your affairs in order.  I don't know how much of it is true though, it is hard to wade through the old wives tales and find a definitive answer.  I avoid it through proper practices.  I always blow the cans out with air and make the initial cuts outside.  Though, as Charles R. Stevens stated, if you want complete avoidance, the disposable helium cans are pretty much the same thing.

When it comes to safety, over reacting is better then under reacting.  

 

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I did do some reading about mustard gas after getting back up out of my sick bed two days later:P

But that was clear back in 2006; as we all know, the Net changes a lot over time.

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Are modern refrigerants CFCs? If not nevermind.

There are ryhms on WWI posters about the poison gasses. The one about a hint mown grass really gets to me. Yeah, if you can smell it order your affairs, if you're lucky it'll be quick.

Mustard gas is another nightmare, nothing like coughing your lungs out. Literally. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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This thread just got REAL real. 

Some important information here. This type of mindful safety is extremely valuable. Not everyone thinks about toxic gasses when cutting into something. Or the mixing of certain things and heat.

Thank you for sharing

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I hadn't even thought about that Frosty.  Modern refrigerants are not CFC's, phaseout in 1996.  HCFC's are in the process of being phased out, 90% phaseout in 2015, full phaseout in 2020.  If you are wanting to stay away from chlorine, you could get an evacuated cylinder from an HFC.  R134a(blue), R404a(orange), or R410a(pink) are the common ones.  R410a is higher pressure so the cylinders may be thicker walled but I am not positive on that.  I will still use the same safety precautions with these cylinders.

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It didn't even occur to me freon hasn't been used in years so I knee jerked. Heck, it irks me you have to pay for freon disposal at the dump for refrigeration units that don't contain freon. 

I use power saws to cut tanks so I don't think about plasma or torch issues. I got twitchy.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

 

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