Forges 101

[MonkeyForge]

Frosty, to answer you last question first: My name is Maarten (similar to Martin but not the same, lemon lime, etc.). For the Bentone/Bentonite I was mainly thinking along the lines of refractory coating/kiln wash. I have no experience whatsoever with burning blocks. I have had success with mixtures of zirconium silicate, kaolin clay and rigidizer in my small forge but the properties of Veegum/Bentone are promising in ease of application of the coating. The only downside I see is that in both products drying time seems to increase which would in turn be an upside if your Kast-O lite/veegum theory is correct. Time zones are familiar as half of my the company I work at is in the US on both coasts and I am here. Mike, I have to test some 3/4 T-burners somewhere in the coming week so I thought I will use some scrap ceramic wool and use that as a test bed for the Bentone. let's see how it stacks up to my current mixture, application and performance wise.

[Mikey98118]

Maarten,

As a binder for thin hot-face coatings, I don't think there would be any practical difference between Bentone, bentonite, or Veegum; all should work fine for that.

[Frosty]

Maarten: At the percentages we're thinking about using the extended drying time and shrink checking aren't much if any issue with any of these materials. Almost all my experience with Bentonite is using while drilling mostly to seal broken rock and lift cuttings from the bore hole. However I got a LOT of experience trying to get to  mix with water in a reasonable amount of time. The vane shear mixer I described earlier is the best I found and I talked to drillers who use drill mud regularly. 

My only other experience is watching one of our club board members use it to plug the tap in his cupola iron melter. The bentonite is mixed to an almost dripping, low slump consistency. (softer than tooth paste) The plug survives direct contact with molten iron without shrink or heat checking. Bentonite, usually in the form of cheap clay kitty litter is a common patch material for damaged gas forges, mostly floors but any gouges, breaks or flux erosion damage. Some guys just lay a pan of bentonite in the forge when welding.

A little more reading shows me there are more chemical compositions for this whole "family" of clays than I imagined and Bentone is indeed a distinct clay. 

If you didn't  know the term "Clay" is a physical description of the particles rather than composition. Please forgive me if I had to Google "What is clay" to spark my memory, I don't remember things like dimensions especially 0.002 mm x 0.004mm "

Anyway, the stuff is incredibly small, flat platey particles that lay like a deck of cards. The physical nature is easily lubricated by water molecules and becomes plastic. Fusing into a vitrified body like a coffee mug or plate depends on the mineral composition, some clays are not vitrifying clays.

Some clays like Bentonite and related types are colloidal and won't settle out of a water column, natural formations are formed by vast lakes drying, not settling. Bentonites are known for not drying until all moisture is gone and must be dried in an oven more commonly used to drive off hygroscopic  moisture not "Just" dry soil.

Anyway, I'm a LOT less worried, even interested, about how Veegum or Bentone behave as a ceramic clay additive. I'm interested in it solely as a plasticizer and potential binder for kiln washes like ITC-100. Once set as an additive to a "water setting" refractory like KastOLite I don't care how long Veegum or other takes to dry naturally, I'm going to make is sooooo VERY much hotter than necessary to drive off hygroscopic moisture. Veegum, etc. aren't going to be present in enough quantity to effect the refractory or kiln wash's shrink check qualities.

Determining how to provide the desirable % is just a matter of experimentation and logging results.

Beyond a very broad sense the clay's chemistry doesn't matter either. I'm just looking for results while keeping my life and dented brain as uncluttered as possible. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

On 7/13/2017 at 0:49 PM, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

In one of the threads (can't remember which) you asked for suppliers. Here is the supplier that we use. They are in Nixa, MO not but an hour away from us. They will get anything asked for and ship everything if needed. The site has a great list of MSDS for supplies.

http://landrspecialties.com/

thank you. I think ceramics sources that are cooperative, and easy to work with are the very best kind.

[MonkeyForge]

I have got my hand on some Bentone and I replenished my Zirconium silicate reserves. Will not have time to do some practical experimentation until the weekend but I found some useful reading to combine with the info on digital fire relating to the firing temperatures and to compare the different cones to their respective temperatures. See attached. 

degrees to cone.pdf

ceramics firing chart.pdf

[(M)]

Hey, I have a design here for a muffler forge, everything is labeled.  I am thinking of just rigidizing it for now, then adding refractory and maybe plistix or something when I have the $$.  I am planning on using 1900 F vermiculite board for the ends.  wiIl that melt or something?  I want a small chamber so as not to waste interior space (and thereby heat and fuel) as I only want to forge knives.  the floor will be a high alumina kiln shelf as described.  the burner will be an 3/4" oliver upwind, keith999 had great success with this (ammo can forge thread).  I am wondering whether I should scrap the shell idea and find a balloon helium tank and also if the 2300 F kaowool will degrade in a small forge with so much heat.  

thanks

(M)

this is my first forge

the kiln shelf should be 1/4"

[ThomasPowers]

Will it be used for forge welding?

[(M)]

Probably not but I'd like to keep my options open heat-wise.

 

[ThomasPowers]

So 2300 degF is welding temp.  Kaowool, especially when, coated with a good compound should do fine.  Uncoated, welding flux goes through it like boiling water through cotton candy. (2" of insulation would help out with achieving welding temp too)

[Mikey98118]

Muffler forges are used to come up with a convenient shell to build into an oval forge; such a forge is meant to give a maximum amount of parts space in a small area; this is why the burner is positioned at an angle from one side of the forge; never straight in. Once you re-position the burner, that brick won't work either.

 

[(M)]

What should I use instead or how should I position it?

[Frosty]

M: If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the Iforge gang live within visiting distance. A couple hours with an experienced person will save you days of trying to figure things out yourself.

Being in a hurry is only really good for making mistakes permanent faster. If you can't afford to build your forge right in the first place what makes you think building one that will quickly fail is going to be less expensive? Haven't you read about building gas forges on Iforge, even just this one thread?

This is a pretty short thread compared to the archived gas forge section of Iforge and everything you asked has been answered in detail several times in "Forges 101". Look it's not really your fault, I don't think the education system teaches people how to do research anymore. I can't fault you for not knowing what you don't know.

So, here's Frosty's basic research technique 101. Using a pad of paper and pen or pencil. Make a list of your questions leaving several lines between each one. Then with pencil in hand start reading "Forges 101" from post #1. When someone asks one of your questions, note the post number and OP. Pay attention to the answers and JUST note the post #. Continue, when you find another post addressing your question repeat the notation and continue. 

You'll run into all your questions before you're half way through THIS thread and have an index of posts dealing with your questions so you can take them one at a time in more depth. Do yo know how to write an outline? Outlining the answers to your questions is often more than enough for you to use. If necessary write down more details, fill out the outline.

Why do I encourage writing on paper? It does an excellent job of committing things to memory, WAY better than typing on a computer and texting on an Iphone is almost useless as a memory enhancement exercise. Of course I'm old I may just be out of touch.

This isn't nearly as complicated or hard as it seems by my description but it's well worth the effort and once you have a basic handle on a subject like building a gas forge you're questions will be better and you'll understand the answers or even BETTER guys who know about this stuff won't know the answer and we'll have to study on the whats, whys and such. That's the reason I answer so many questions, it makes me think about why I do things the way I do.

We don't want you to quit and go away, we really want you to get this stuff working and make beautiful, useful things. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

When I find a relative thread for what I'm doing, I bookmark it in a folder named Blacksmith. It helps a lot for going back and re-reading.

[Frosty]

Excellent tip! Makes me think a thread or even section on how to do research might be a good thing. Like anybody reads the stickies but. In my above reply I found myself writing and deleting too many, "why didn't you?" sentences. What good is it to tell someone to do something if they don't know how.

Just now you suggested a technique I've been using since the internet went public but don't think about, I can just click save as and put it in the file. Writing notes on paper sets even that in my memory.

I know I'm not as skilled taking notes as I could be and it'd be nice to see how the masters do it.

Outlining is an art. So are Graphs and tables. Think how much easier it'd be to match the correct parts to make a burner or fit it to a forge if they were graphed and tabled. Okay, that's a really loosey goosey example but it's just an example.

Okay, I'm off on a ramble again but it's a thought.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

[(M)]

ok will do!

[Frosty]

14 minutes ago, (M) said:

ok will do!

Sorry M, I got on a soap box there didn't I? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[(M)]

Yup a bit lol it's ok.  I was looking for just a design and go-- understanding the principles is better.  Thanks for the advice.  Honestly when I joined the forum I was looking for a quick fix but I now know there's no such thing.  And once I know the basic principles I can experiment on my own more

thanks

(M)

 

[Jasent]

Is there a formula for figuring out how much ridgedizer (colloidal silica) and refractory I'll need?  12 sqft of 1" koa wool that will be 2 layers

[Frosty]

I've been trying not to step on my own tongue so often, its hard to remember the questioner may not have heard the answer no matter haw many times I've written it. Most anything you're likely to ask has been answered many times but there's a LOT of archived posts to sort through and a lot of folk answering questions don't know what they're saying. 

Jasen: The manufacturer's information sites offer coverage info usually in sq' per lb. or IIRCC sq' per cubic yard or ton. I don't recall where I did the math on Kast-O-Lite 30 to put a 1/2" thick layer on my forge. I probably have a number per sq' 1/2" thick but I don't know where, it's easier to get out the calculator than remember where I put stuff.

Are you buying rigidizer or mixing up your own? The rule of thumb I used was to wet the blanket with water then wet it good with rigidizer. Not saturate it just wet it, touching it after applying the rigidizer left my hands wet. No question about it, WET. Buttering the blanket with water first lets the rigidizer disperse more evenly.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jasent]

I was looking at colloidal silica in powder form to mix my self. I just don't want to get 100x more than I'll ever need or only half as much.  

With the kastolite I'm in the same boat. I haven't been able to find where it says coverage amounts or even how much a quart will make.  Maybe I'm searching the wrong places or over looking the info. 

Thank you for your time

[MonkeyForge]

Wayne coe who is a member here sells most of what you need in small quantities. Kind of depends where you are located if that is an option.

[Frosty]

Jasen: What search terms did you use? I just did a quick Google of, "Kast-O-lite 30 Data sheet." and got several pages of hits.  Sometimes there are magic words and phrases that refine search terms. "Data Sheet "  in caps is one of those magic terms. 

Please forgive me for not scanning some of the hits for coverage rates but it's there, I used it to calculate coverage in my forge. You can even find conversion tables that will calculate cu/meters to cu/in. BOY did that save some calculator time and made for confident mixing.

This sounds like a good thread. "Magic search words and phrases?" Hmmmm.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jasent]

Thank you frosty. Data sheet was not in my search terms. I'll remember that one!

[Mikey98118]

Rigidizer is usually sold in one quart containers, which is enough to rigidize about two five gallon sized tunnel forge. Fumed silica is sold in much greater amounts. You are not likely to find other sizes available, so your question turns out to be a none issue.

 

So, after being sidelined with a bad splitter, I'm back on line, only to see you others doing a great job, keeping up with the stickies.

 

[Jasent]

7 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Rigidizer is usually sold in one quart containers, which is enough to rigidize about two five gallon sized tunnel forge. Fumed silica is sold in much greater amounts. You are not likely to find other sizes available, so your question turns out to be a none issue.

 

 

I have found as little as 1.7 oz , 5oz and one pint .    

Thanks again for turning my light on while I stumbled in the dark. 

My supply's are ordered.