Help to get some ITC-100

[ArcticSmith]

Hello, im about to build by first gas forge and im going to use 1 layer of 2" kaowool and then coated with 1/2" layer of itc-100.

kaowool i find easy and cheap on Ebay.

But itc-100 on the other hand has been really hard. I cannot find an European supplier and the shipping prices from U.S is twice the price of a pint of ITC..

64.50$ for a pint of ITC-100 but shipping to norway costs 160.34$ with USPS International Mail. Do anyone know of any suppliers in EU in which i do not need to sell all my family heirlooms to pay for shipping? 

 

Prices where aquired from Anvilforge.com

also, is there any websites where they sell dufferent tubes, pipes, nozzles and everything i need for the burners? 

 

[ArcticSmith]

Thanks, i'll read up on plistix and metrikote before i decide. 

[Mikey98118]

Frosty uses zirconium silicate mixed with a binder with good success; it is available in products like Zircopack, which are used in ceramic glazes.  As to burner parts, it would be helpful is you tell us which burner design you want to pursue.

[ArcticSmith]

Oh alright, i'll check into that aswell.

The thing is that im not really sure which design suits my forge the best. Its made of a propane tank which is about a foot and 1/2 of a foot wide and up to my kneecap in height. I might find a smaller tank because its mostly knives i will try to make. Which burner designs do you recommend Mikey? 

[Frosty]

You're doing what we've been trying to get guys to stop doing. You're telling us the outside dimensions of your found object and expecting US to do the math for you. Can you calculate the volume of the INSIDE of the chamber?

From you guesstimation that's going to be a HUGE chamber for forging knives. Are you planning on starting with semi truck axles for stock? It's be more than large enough even then.

It's not a big thing, I'm illustrating a couple points for you. First point being you do NOT have to use a thing just because you have it.  I've never seen a knife that couldn't be forged in a chamber about 6" wide and high by 9" long and a single 3/4" burner has to be kept turned pretty low in it even during welding operations.

Can you buy steel stove pipe? A 12" long piece of 10" dia. will make a nice sized knife forge that a single 3/4" burner will bring to easy welding temperature. I like stainless steel stove pipe but non galvanized black stove pipe is less expensive and easier to work with. All you need for tools is tin snips, a hand drill and a pop rivet gun or sheet metal screws and screw driver. To mount the burners you'll need a little light weight steel strapping or tubing the burner will slip into but all that's easy to find and inexpensive.

I don't know what you can find for useful salvage but around here you can buy old ammo cans for not to terrible a price, usually around $20.00 USD for a 50 caliber ammo can. These make really strong forge shells and have a build in hinged door.. That's just another example of scrounging a forge shell, there's nothing about a knife forge that needs to be heavy steel. If it didn't shed fibers you could just wire ceramic fiber into a tube and forget a shell entirely. do NOT do that, breathing the fibers is NOT a good thing for your lungs, that's just an example of how little structural strength a knife forge needs. It only needs to support a few ounces say 500gm maybe 1kg. for a silly BIG pattern welded billet.

Just because you have that big old propane tank does NOT mean you MUST use it. Save it for later maybe some day you'll need a monster forge or cut the top off it and use it for a slack tub or cut both ends off and use them for outdoor fire pits, or slice it lengthwise, hinge them and make a BBQ. Lots of things you can do with an old propane tank, just because making gas forges from them is a fad right now doesn't mean YOU have to join the crowd.

Everybody seems to start out making too large a forge, my shop forge is stupid too large, fortunately it's easy to cut down to useful volumes. It has 4 burners mounted on it and it's a rare day indeed if I light a second burner, the other two just gather dust and look impressive. The smartest thing I did building my present shop forge is designed it to have a variable volume the top lifts on a jack so I can arrange soft fire brick partitions inside into different sizes and shapes. Still, I have never used more than a 9" wide 9" high 18" long chamber, it's usually half that give or take running on one burner.

There are lots of decent to excellent burner designs to choose from, the decent to good ones are reasonably easy to make the excellent ones take intermediate shop skills. You'll still need basic shop skills or a lot of time and patience.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Let's back up a step first, and try to get your Foot out of the bear trap.  A five gallon propane cylinder is more than big enough to do most general forging tasks. If it weren't for baffles that can be installed in them, to reduce their internal dimensions, I would have to conclude that they are simply too big most of the time. But, you said the magic words "knife forge," which means it will be too big for you ALL the time. Instead, you need to find a two gallon cylinder from a non-refillable refrigerent or helium tank. Or, you could use  part of a car muffler, and end up, with an oval knife forge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Mikey98118]

So, now we come to burners, and it needed to wait until now, because of little things like "square of the distance" which means that now matter how cleverly you design it, a little forge will cost less money to heat your work hotter than a big forge.

Now as Frosty will tell you, I'm inclined to over-complicate things and suggest that you go for a pair of  3/8" Mikey burners, to get every lost bit of heat...because I am a shameless equipment slut. But, the balled truth is that you could build a knife maker's forge with a 1/2" "T" burner and be perfectly happy ever after.

[ArcticSmith]

Thanks for the answers Frosty and Mikey, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer me.

I did indeed think it was too large, and i havent really calculated the inner measurements, its all guessing from eyesight. But nonetheless i wont use it as a forge, I'll find myself a smaller piece, a 10" Stove pipe, a smaller propane tank or anything that i can scavenge from around here. The ammo box sounds pretty perfect, but i doubt we have those easily accessible in Norway. And no, i was not planning on leaving the Ceramic wool open so i can breathe in the particles that it emits, i wanted to coat it with ITC or something that works as a hotface and protection of the wool for when i want to try pattern welding without ruining the wool with the borax. While im on that topic, how do you protect your furnace with from melted flux? do you put firebrick inside for when you are using flux? 

I'd say i have the skills to make such a thing, Im educated as an Industrial Mechanic, I used to work for Rolls Royce before the oil price dropped and put tens of thousands out of work here.

You made the floor of the forge onto a jack so that you can raise and lower the inner height of the forge? Sounds like a masterpiece.

As Mikey said that you are using zirconium sicilate for the hotface? Would you mind teach me how to make it? its either that or the Plistix/Metrikote that Wayne suggested.

For the burner, would it be preferred to angle it so that the flame/heat follows the circular wall and heats up the forge evenly? I added a professionally drawn picture. And im thinking about going for the T burner, it seems like the easiest one to make, i dont need a forge which is really well made, just one that works without blowing up in my face or falling apart, im really eager to start hammering metal haha.

Also, i found another picture on google, I believe it is a design of yours Frosty, would this be a viable burner design i could use?

Also, do you have any books to recommend for beginners?

 

[ArcticSmith]

I managed to find a Fire Extinguisher, I tought it could work for a small forge. Its 6" diameter and 16" high, Im not sure about the thickness of the steel. Could it work as a forge? it has some numbers on the side, it shows "L5151 -03 1050" and im guessing 1050 is the steel quality.

Coca cola for scale.

[MonkeyForge]

I used a bucket:

I will leave the advice on burner placement to the experts since I am not happy with how mine turned out (It works OK but it could be better had I aimed it correctly or moved it more to the middle instead of the back.) The steel in your extinguisher will be thicker and the shape is long and narrow, take this into account when putting in the insulation since this will decrease the interior volume.  

 

[Mikey98118]

Have we all forgotten that Ron Riel's burner pages show how to construct a delightful little knife forge with step by step instructions, including photos; or is this path just too simple? When I see a guy who is mystified by where to aim the burner, it is time to suggest he follow a PROVEN plan.

[MonkeyForge]

Not mystified anymore, built the forge, made mistakes. I only meant to illustrate that a steel bucket will make a fine forge body. The paint can forge on Ron Reil's site the best starting point I can imagine. Better than my experimental pizza oven

[Frosty]

No don't use that drawing of a T burner I wish I could make them go away. It's more hassle than it's worth. It's way out of date, the first one I was able to reliably build but not as easy as the new "design."

T Burner Directions finished.pdf

The roof on my shop forge is on a jack, the floor is solid. It lets me change the size and shape of the forge as necessary it just usually isn't necessary.

I vote for a tangential burner orientation in a cylindrical or vault shape forge.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[ArcticSmith]

Thank you Frosty, Exactly what i was looking for. Now all that remains is to find all these parts in a country that uses metric haha  

[ThomasPowers]

What is the conversion between the metric haha and the stone haha?

[beaudry]

 Just look for a local ceramics supply house that caters to professional potters.

Ask for a high temperature reflective kiln wash that can go up to cone 10 or higher. They usually have zirconia in them.

I buy 1 gallon pails of ITC 100 from Seattle Pottery Supply which runs about US$100 and lasts me about 6 or 7 years, recoating both gas forges about once a year.

A pint won't get you very far and it's much cheaper by the gallon. Keep the lid on tight and protect it from freezing. If it gets dried out, thin it back to a brushable consistency with distilled water and a paddle in an electric drill. 

Apply it liberally  to all exposed ceramic fiber and the steel edges of the door openings with a brush and /or sponge. Let it fully dry with some sort of gentle heat source and ventilation for  least a coupe of days before firing the forge.

You should also be able to get the kaowool from them as well.

You can get a liquid rigidizer for kaowool that you can brush or spray on. This hardens up the kaowool and makes it easier to apply the ITC 100.

The rigidizer and kiln wash are well worth it, both to increase the thermal efficiency of the forge a well as protect the insulation.

It also cuts down on the free floating kaowool fibers in the exhaust from the forge. These are classified as a ''temporary irritant'' but I think they used to say the same thing about asbestos.