Advice on quitting my job for forging

[rockstar.esq]

Jackhammer,

Is there a reason that you think your current job represents the entire range of what you could do as an Electrical Engineer?

I just realized that I've been advocating travel over college without explaining why.  Travel teaches you about yourself, your abilities, and the world in ways that colleges never could.  You've posted a few times as though your entire world is comprised of two choices, remain at this job you don't like, or go back to college for blacksmithing.  That's not true at all because you've already got incredibly valuable skills.

The second time you quoted me, you completely missed my point.  I never said you'd master the craft in two weeks, I merely pointed out that most successful smiths didn't attend one, solitary program in Sweden.  If you want to be a successful smith, it'd pay to follow their example.

What's better, learning repousse  from an obscure professor at some University in Sweden for a semester, or studying under a world renown master of Repousse for a few weeks?  Superior skills require more effort to obtain.

The whole reason an apprentice transitions to journeyman before becoming a master is because you can't possibly master the craft without getting into the shops of a variety of masters.  It's a modern collegiate notion that time served in academia constitutes a journey from basic skills to mastery of a craft. 

I keep pointing out how his entire line of thinking applies to your Electrical Engineering options as well.  There ACTUALLY ARE magical jobs in electrical engineering, but you'll have to be willing to look beyond your little corner of the world to get them.  Awesome things don't typically fall out of the tree in your front yard.  If you always choose whatever is leading downhill, you won't feel the sun on your face, and you won't have perspective to see where else you could go.

[natenaaron]

On 6/9/2016 at 7:00 PM, Jackhammer said:

There's no competition

Yes there is.  It is called the mass market manufacturing juggernaught that is China, and the internet.  Type blacksmith into etsy sometime.  How are you better than them? If you can't answer that to yourself honestly you have a problem.  No one here is telling you not to do it but you have some serious questions to answer.

Listen to rockstar. 

 

 

[ianinsa]

There is a lot of good advice given here and opposing viewpoints too so yes you'll find it confusing! Yet you need to apply real world thinking to your plans/dreams ice.in the company you work for now has the 'top dog' spent much time personally teaching/grooming you for growth/advancement?  in a successful blacksmiths shop it will be much the same . It is after all a business not a school? However if you have the aptitude and the mindset you can leant vast amounts by " stealing with your eyes" so some people learn in 2 weeks what others learn in 3 years.

When one thinks of high paying 'out of office'  jobs think more of seeing sand more than forest! 2 years in the gulf states = 10 elsewhere and on your 1 and a half days off you can afford to pay a local blacksmith to teach you. This makes for a very steep learning curve.

[arftist]

After 3 months they are still beginers.

After a year you are still a beginer.

Four years at an intensive speciality school; still a beginer (much knowledge maybe but zero work experience).

I feel I must respond to your reply to Rockstar, field work is much more than staring into a cabinet at an outpost.

There is getting to the outpost. Travel is one of my favorite parts of field work.

Seeing the world as I travel from job to job. Eating in different restaurants on the company dime. Learning local culture. Getting paid to fly or drive.

Pay differential. Per diem pay.

No supervisors.

Meeting new people.

Truly solving problems.

I could go on, I love field work and always volunteer. No cubilcle for me.

Good luck in your choices but try to make less assumptions. Keep asking questions but keep an open mind when reviewing the replies. Rockstar in particular knows of what he speaks, he has worked in your field for many years.

Oh and beware of Youtube.

As a true practioner I see more garbage than not on Youtube.

As a beginner  how would you know the difference?

 

[Culver Creek Hunt Club]

On 6/9/2016 at 7:00 PM, Jackhammer said:

I only picked electrical engineering because I, maybe childishly, thought it would be more vivid and 'magical', more actual machines moving around. Instead I'm looking at papers and computer screens.

From reading the posts it sounds to me like you are not happy or finding satisfaction with the "design" side of the engineering field. I don't deal with Electrical engineers much, most of my dealings are with mechanical engineers. I see any  engineering  discipline as broken into tow sections. colleges almost always focus on one and that is the design side. The other, and less promoted is the application side. This is usually focused on with the contractors building/installing or the client that is using whatever widget we are talking about. I don't mean this to sound like a dig but based on your responses is seems you have a narrow, "college" view of the opportunities that are out there for engineers. You have pushed your way into a great field, hate to see you bail on it without really looking at all options. 

 

I wish you luck in whatever direction you choose. 

[gote]

No competition probably means no market.

Rock star: This guy is not in the US.

[Jarntagforge]

On 6/9/2016 at 2:26 AM, rockstar.esq said:

You've posted a few times as though your entire world is comprised of two choices, remain at this job you don't like, or go back to college for blacksmithing.  That's not true at all because you've already got incredibly valuable skills.

Thanks for your reply and patience with me. I think I'm starting to see your point now after you hammered it into me!  I have so few influences so my view is very narrow. I know there are other jobs ''somewhere far away'' but I could start looking harder while giving this engineering job another shot and learning more. Thinking of it as a stepping stone to something else helps a lot!

I went to visit the school this weekend. "Järnakademien Ångermanland" in Kramfors, Sweden. It looked fantastic. I'm posting 2 pictures but they don't do it justice of course. Naturally they had power hammers and every kind of tool and machine. Anyway. I talked to a few students, their plan was to finish school, get a part time job while building their shop. They expected it to take 2 years. That got me thinking, why not keep my job and build a shop with the money I get? Also I don't like losing years of income while studying, so I would have gotten an evening job there. That would have meant smithing in the day and working in the evening. Why not keep my job and work in the day and smith in the evening?

The good thing about this school is that they learn about different kinds of steel. What is what, when to use what, tempering, all these abstract kind of things you can't figure out easily. Also they learn business and surround themselves in the craft, live and breath it, and it would have been sooo friggin fun!! And as a substitute for the Journeyman travelling they have master blacksmiths come to the school for intensive classes in their specialties. Axes, hammers, art. So the college way of teaching is not necessarily a narrow and poor thing!

If I could go back in time I'd exchange engineering for blacksmithing but as I stand now I think my best bet is to keep my income and practice blacksmithing in the evening. Using my income to buy anything and getting this hobby thing going/afloat. Thanks for your help

 

On 6/10/2016 at 5:22 PM, arftist said:

There is getting to the outpost. Travel is one of my favorite parts of field work.

Yeah, travel is an awesome learning experience. Might get tiring after a few years? But I see your point.

[ThomasPowers]

With my Computer and Information Science Degree I have so far worked around 15 years for Bell Labs in Telecomunications---including spending time in Germany, Indonesia, Italy and the UK; (got into international field support and I have always let my bosses know that I'm willing to travel). About 10 years for the National Radio Astronomy Observatory spending time in Socorro NM USA, Garching Germany and Middle of NoWhere Chile. I'm now working for a Computer manufacturer and crossing an international border every work day.   (I know that the Antenna manufacturer for ALMA had an employee on site both in the USA and in Cile---why couldn't that be you?  (ESO European Southern Observatory based in Garching; if you are interested I could hunt down some contacts...)

Not liking your job could mean a change of jobs and not fields!

[rockstar.esq]

One of my favorite Mark Twain quotes comes to mind :“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

[arftist]

Tiring for some, yes, for me no.

Always more stuff to see,

restaurants to try,

people to meet.

 

[natenaaron]

My brother travels all the time for his work as a structural engineer.  He referred to his time in the cube as paying his dues.  He told his boss he was willing to travel. A lot of the time we are not allowed to know where he has been or what he is working on.  He is single and happy to be.  I could not live that way.  I could not be away from my family that long.

To each their own though.

[VaughnT]

Glad to see you're starting to think this through.

Traveling for work can be an absolute blast.  My last two "real" jobs required constant travel - I was home every night, but every single day saw me in a range of new locations.  I absolutely loved the work because there was something new every single day.  It really makes a difference in how you perceive the daily grind and I don't regret a minute of it.

If you have to spend weeks or months away from home, living out of a hotel room, that can get old after a few years.  But the key thing to remember is that nothing is set in stone.  You might get tired of the constant travel and no home life.  Or you might not.  You might decide that enough is enough and you want to start a family.  Or you might meet the love of your life while spending months in some far flung country.  You just never know what will happen when you get to travel.

Best of all, you're not sacrificing anything by moving around in your field.  You have the schooling so any field experience you can add to it only makes you more valuable to your employers.  That means better pay - which translates into more funds for blacksmithing classes and equipment.

 

[Jarntagforge]

Hey all! I hope you guys get a notification about this new post? Not sure how this forum works yet

An update! And exiting news!

I stayed at my job. AND I got into a school 

Since when I posted the latest time last summer I had basically been doing small odd tasks helping my boss out as he was looking for new projects for me. But finally I was laid off in December, as in I'm still hired but I'm not working or getting paid at the moment. So I'm collecting unemployment benefits while waiting for work. SO I started working in the shop!

Here's a video from the shop. This is me, and the shop in the early stages.

It's in an 1900's dialect of Swedish but there are ENGLISH SUBS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-qaIVkOjtw

And I applied to a blacksmithing ''journeyman'' education. It's a one year long, distance-studies weekend education. I'll go there 8 weekends during 2017 starting next week. 16 days over 8 weekends spread out over the year. Inbetween those I'll do "homework". As in forge stuff. In the end there'll be a test. The last weekend there will be a two-day-test. I will have to forge some surprise products on the spot, with master blacksmiths overlooking me and then judging the work and finally deciding if I then get the title journeyman.

I plan to record all of this and put it up on my brand new Youtube channel! Would you guys be interested in watching this? I would do it in both English or Swedish depending on the situation. I'd film myself and a couple classmates. Go to their home shops and watch them do work and talk about the classes. Show my own progress, show the school, probably the interview the teacher. And I have some more blacksmithing ideas from Finland to show you.

Interest? Hit subscribe then you'll be notified when it appears on the channel 

[Gergely]

Allright, you got me. Let's see what you are capable of  Am rooting for you.

One technical thing: please do something with the camera or the picture that it won't be a vertical slice only.

Bests and keep posting!

Gergely

PS: It took me a while to realize that I understand your Swedish (well, not actually but bits and pieces) because it's the Finnish-Swedish dialect. Was fun to hear. 

 

[Jarntagforge]

Hey! That's really strange that you understand some parts, because it's not Finnish which would be closer to Hungarian!  I like the Hungarian folk music group Muzsikás! Really good.

I did record some parts from the blacksmith school, but it's all on my hard drive still because my computer is too slow to process many gigabytes big movie files. For the moment I can't edit it, but some time for sure. I'll record with my phone in my forge instead, it also gives good quality. About the school though, it turns out it's hard to record and forge at the same time! I would have to do it like Chandler Dickinson. But looking at a beginner do beginner forging isn't interesting. So I think I'll just record snippets from the school when the teacher demonstrates. And then I'll record myself forging in my own forge and edit it shorter so it's more viewer-friendly. This bird we made the latest time!

Best regards,

Jakob

[John in Oly, WA]

Nice bird!

Get a tripod for the camera. Makes forging and video-ing at the same time easier.

[Gergely]

My research field was the Northern Saami language, so I saw a big bunch of texts written in Swedish and Norvegian. But never came close to understand any spoken Scandinavian language. That's why the surprise while listening to your vid

I like Muzsikás, too, but I more often listen to Hedningarna!

That's a real good looking birdy! Keep on the good work! 

Bests to you:

Gergely

[Anachronist58]

Wow Jakob, nice birdie!

Robert Taylor

[Jarntagforge]

So what happened after? I did blacksmithing as a hobby. Made camp axes, bottle openers and trinkets. I sold at many Christmas markets and fairs and I realized I was selling my stuff way too cheap and people still didn't buy it. That meant my way of doing it wasn't working, but it could for sure work in many other ways - like bigger proejcts or online selling. That sort of stuff. But I did realize however that it's really tough work and the pay is minimal. And it's a tough job - I'm literally only earning what I can produce with my hands.

I was working full time during this time. First as an electrical engineer. I got laid off and then got a factory job, really horrible job, I have to say. But it supported my hobby. I decided to build an air hammer, 40 kg, as shown in the picture. Cost me 1800 €. During this time I took part in a blacksmithing weekend education. 10 weekends spread out over a year with homework inbetween. I got the title Journeyman in the end, wasn't easy!

Everyone told me a homemade hammer wouldn't hold up, and I loved the old Swedish helve type spring hammers, so when one of those rarities showed up for 1500 € I bought it.

2019 came and I moved in with my girlfriend in the city of Vaasa. I didn't know what to do at this point. I was considering axe making, but I knew it would be tough physical labor. Then I had an epiphany - I could build on my electrical engineering exam and study for 2 years to become a mechanical engineer, fall of 2019 to spring of 2021!!! And so I did! I got accepted into the school and on top of that during the summer of 2019 I began building a blacksmith/fabrication workshop out of a pole barn on my parents farm.

Finally to top it off I bought an old 75 kg factory made air hammer from cirka 1920 for 250 € (!), from the blacksmithing school. It had some problems and they couldn't fix it. I will. It's not even broken, it just doesn't work they said. And also I bought a Bridgeport mill, 2000 €. After my workshop is done I will buy an old small lathe, and build myself a CNC plasma table as cheaply as I'm able to.

I'll work as a mechanical engineer and I have a really good hobby on the side. I have a passion for blacksmithing and machinery. I'm not sure yet where I'll go with it but I'm just going, making up my plans while I do. I'm interested in possibly doing something like Ballard Forge. Riveted structures, or just good looking riveted store fronts. Even building and selling hydraulic presses. Some axes on the side if I can swing it. Not sure where I'm going, but I'm going in the right direction.

[anvil]

Sounds like you are on a roll. Congrats. 

I was in your position many years ago. I'm 73. After 2-1/2 years in areospace engineering I knew it wasn't for me. For some reason I knew, with no experience, that Traditional Blacksmithing was my destiny. I made my choice and dropped out of college, joined the navy, got out and used the GI Bill to finance my farrier business. I knew I could make a living as a farrier thus make a living with an anvil and a hammer. This I consider as my self imposed apprenticeship.

I bought property, raised my family, and after 8 years or so, we(my family and I) made the change to "traditional smithing" full on. This evolved into architectural blacksmithing and here I am decades later, a very satisfied man still working my craft.

I've enjoyed the story of your journey. Who knows where it will end up. 

[George N. M.]

Congratulations!  You have hit the compromise that many of us have, how to balance the love of the craft with the need to make a living.  For many of us the craft, by necessity, has to remain a hobby or a source of supplemental income.  there are a few folk who manage to support themselves but many of them have to do it with very high talent and low expectations for monetary reward.  It also helps to have a spouse with a steady job/income.

There have been times when I supported myself with my hammer and anvil but I didn't make much more than unemployment payments but it felt better.

So, smithing has become, for me, a hobby that will pay for itself and will bring in a bit of additional income.  There are few hobbies that will do that.

Again, it is good to hear that you have hit this compromise and are happy with it.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

[anvil]

I agree with you almost 100%, George. My spouse was the house person and did work out of the house a few years during the transition from farrier to smith.

As for income, I'd describe it in terms of "traditional" income more than what's common in today's world. On today's world one can get a good job, then borrow money and pay it back over a long period of time. This, of course applies to most all purchases. This is the status society seems to put on "the pathway to success".

By traditionally I mean it might take 10 or so years to build up a successful enough business without the ready loans available to others in order to overcome the many catch 22's we face as working smiths, and be able to borrow money. My wife and I were able to buy a raw piece of land and, well, sorta, do all those things John Denver never sang about. 

I believe that economically that is the main difference between these two life's pathways. Lest we forget we live in a world where peer and family pressure is pretty strong to show you are succeeding by going into debt early on and getting all those goodies. This is a major negative factor that every aspiring craftsman must deal with. My wife and I chose early on to not use plastic or borrow money and to challenge the concept that we could not succeed by living on a cash basis. I'm not saying it was easy, but it worked.

I believe this is the economic concept that every aspiring craftsman must be aware of if they are to succeed.

I never mean to negatively critique anyone for their life's choices and have the utmost respect for those who enjoy this fine craft as they will. Contrary to this I have always caught a lot of flack for my life's choice from many, not all, who do not choose to become a working smith. I do tend to get a bit put off by those who, in a post like this, are so adamant that you can't make a living as a working smith in this day and age. It is important to show the pitfalls and traps, which I do. Yet I'm always encouraging to those who are contemplating this career path.

To quote Francis Whitaker:

"there's plenty of room at the top".

[ThomasPowers]

Lets not forget that there is a major difference between craftwork in the USA and in a lot of the rest of the world and that it access to health care.  I've known several crafters who a single accident put them into bankruptcy. (I remember one who threw a party to celebrate paying off the birth of his son; who was in grade school  by then!)  Having a spouse with good benefits can be a major plus for crafters here in the USA!

I'm currently using about US$1000 of insulin every month, (cost to produce is under $100),  My insulin pump cost more than my pickup, and the supplies for it are also high dollar items. I couldn't afford that without being part of a Business Health plan; and generally larger businesses or government jobs.

[rockstar.esq]

A monk may spend their days meditating on the question of why people live without contemplating the meaning of their actions.

A captain of industry may spend their days locked in a struggle to extract as much of their potential as they can within the time they have on earth.

Each may be occupying a place "at the top" that Whittaker alluded to.

Each may consider their path to be obvious, and readily followed.  

So why doesn't everyone do this?  Well, by and large the answer is pretty simple.  Perspective.

Let's apply Whittaker's comment to climbing a metaphorical mountain.  You start out by climbing towards the peak when it's the tallest thing on your horizon.  As you progress, the landscape changes.  Challenges present themselves, and alternate paths are revealed.  Since we're talking about marching up to the pinnacle of human achievement, it's reasonable to assume that the challenges will include stuff like lightning strikes, starvation, whiteout snowfall, avalanches, etc.  The path will narrow, and sometimes disappear.  Anyone tied to your lifeline will need to do their part.  Just like K2, both the right and the wrong paths are marked by the frozen corpses of predecessors.  Many of whom died following a Sherpa who'd made the summit before.

When everyone is just blindly putting one foot in front of the other, what separates the winners from the losers?  Nothing.  Both groups applied their full potential to a blind test of faith.

Those that succeed in achieving their summit, saw their faith rewarded.  I would argue that those that failed did too.  Climbing that mountain blind isn't about practicality, achieving potential, or perseverance, it's about testing faith in their perspective.

What does a monk on a deserted and lofty mountaintop know of problems in the foothills?  I think the likeliest answer is that nothing matters more than reaching a perch on which to proclaim that nothing else matters.  That's probably the truth as they see it.  They certainly earned their perspective.

Speaking of perspective, I think a 100 level micro-economics concept needs to be presented.

Let's say you've got a couple on a tropical island.  The only readily available food is fish, and coconuts.  They live halfway between the trees and the shore but it's a long enough walk that you can't do each in the same day.  Each person needs five coconuts and four fish per day to be satisfied.  Any surplus food is eaten by poisonous insects.

Larry can gather ten coconuts, or four fish in a day. 

Jane can gather twelve coconuts or ten fish in a day. 

Obviously Jane is better at everything than Larry is.  However, if Jane trades Larry four fish for five coconuts, they are both better off than if neither party made the trade.  Jane is one fish "richer" than Larry is.  

Sharp eyed observers may think it would be better to simply divide their spoils every night.  That would certainly add half a fish to Larry's plate.  However, it would also deter Jane from doing her best since she her reward for catching that tenth fish of the day has dropped by half.  Larry too, benefits from the motivation in this trade agreement since anything short of ten coconuts threatens his survival.

Notice how neither party can afford to be a Monk, or a Captain of Industry here?  

Free trade generates incentives and deterrents which motivate people towards efficiency and cooperation.  Historically speaking, life without free trade is nasty, brutish, and short.

"Taking on debt" is often presented as though it's an entrepreneurial trap, supported by flawed character on all sides.  There's a difference between a stroll in the foothills versus an attempt to summit K2 in sandals.  Similarly, there are financial options that present reasonable rewards for reasonable risks, just as there are predatory practices.

A perspective which will not admit to seeing a difference, has a blind spot which makes all journeys perilous.  Bystanders who find themselves between the perspectives of Monk and the Captain of Industry in my example are well advised to recognize that striding blindly is a test of faith which is it's own reward.  Successfully reaching the summit on those terms is mostly an unintended consequence. 

I believe that any effort to snuff out that faith is as mean-spirited as it is counter-productive.  I think we should all strive to achieve our dreams, lest the boundaries of practicality define our potential.  Human capital is precious, and dreams alone do not feed us.  Being useful to others and grateful for opportunity has opened doors to expand my potential.  People helped me along the way, so I try to help others to avoid paying tuition at the "School of Hard Knocks". 

 

 

 

 

[anvil]

Dang, I lost my reply. Suffices to say again I agree with your philosophical approach. About 10 years ago I made one of those walk the walk decisions that tested my philosophical metal, you might say, to the max. That ended about a year ago and it was very satisfying that what I believed did in fact work out. Lol, it did take a major readjustment in my economic life.

Thomas, again, you are the example of what I said above. Your passion for this craft shines with every post and your passing on of your knowledge is an example to all. Now don't let this go to your head.  I'm sure that we will again get into a 10 page debate on some minor point that determines the true fait of contemporary smithing.  :). 

To be clear, whenever I see that spark in the eye of one considering pursuing a career as a working smith I will always point out the boogers and traps and will always encourage them to give it a try. There are far too many nay sayers that are totally against attempting this. Someone's got to do it. Might as well be me.