Advice on quitting my job for forging

[Jarntagforge]

Hey folks. I have asked many people for advice already but I haven't made up my mind yet. I want to quit my job to study to become a blacksmith. There's a school in Sweden where you literally study pure blacksmithing for 4 years and then you get the title "Journeyman". After that I'd either wanna work as a helper somewhere or open up my own shop and make tools and gates.

The thing is I already have a Bachelors in Electrical Engineering and I've soon worked one year in it. Sitting on a chair 8h/day in front of the computer. Drawing blueprints or editing Excel spreadsheets. I hate sitting all the time and the planning aspect is uninteresting and boring.

And then there's the blacksmithing school. The school doesn't cost anything at all. I would just have to get a weekend or evening job to cover rent and expenses.

Should I quit my job to follow my dream? I've only had this dream for a year but why wait any longer? Been in the smithy about 10 times. But I've been thinking about it every single day, watching youtube blacksmith videos and instagram photos and bought an anvil and a blacksmith's vise for later (I live in an apartment). I'm not getting any younger (I'm 26) and the clock's ticking.

My parents want me to stay at my job (who knew?) so they won't give me real advice. They say the school takes too long.

What I am worried about myself is what happens after school. I'm not (yet) very socially skilled so sales might suffer from that. Also I'm not very confident and haven't been especially entrepreneurial (until now). I don't know what I'm capable of.

Then again, in the end we're all gonna die so why not give it a shot. Thanks for reading.

[Kozzy]

It sounds like you are still pretty young.  One piece of advice that I didn't take regarding youth was that it *IS* the time to take your risks in life.  Live light (not a bunch of stuff to drag around) and take the risks while the pain of failure doesn't screw with mortgages, spouses, and kids. 

Making a living in smithing is a (VERY) long-shot--be sure to add general fabrication skills to the mix if the "School" focuses too heavily on only the smithing part.  You can always bail out if you find that it's not for you. Your current education doesn't disappear as long as you remember to keep it fed also.

No, I'm not telling you that you should do it--No one knows the details of your situation or your personality. However, if you are going to reach for the gold ring in life, youth is a good time to take that risk with far less downside.

[ThomasPowers]

Where are you at?  If you are in the USA I would suggest getting some time off and doing a preview by taking Frank Turley's class in Santa Fe NM  www.turleyforge.com  Then decide if you want to go for the 4 year program in Sweden.

But as mentioned NOW is the time to take risks---if you are single.   When the Oil Field  crashed in the early 1980's; my geology degree wasn't good for much; but I had substantial savings as Oil is boom and bust. So I took a year off and worked with a sword maker, unpaid but 2 meals a day with the family. At the end of that year I had learned that I preferred not to be my own boss (and I got married and had a family to support.)  I treasure that year in memory and am so very grateful I learned what I did without having to go through bankruptcy working on my own to figure it out.  32 years married (in August!) and another degree, CIS, later I'm still forging (and married to the same lady), but a large multinational company is my day job and smithing is my hobby.

 

Of course one of my smithing students just switched majors from History/Philosophy to Metallurgy after being in college 2 years---I hear his parents want to throw a party for me...More years in college; but a good job at the end!

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Here is my take on this.

Making a living as a full time smith will be tough as it is, and could be a lot tougher depending on where you live. Especially now since there may be a lot more yahoos hanging their shingle out as a smith than say 5 years ago thanks to shows like Forged in Fire.  Yes, there are some guys who can make $50,000 for an entry gate, but most do not. Find a niche and fill it.

 

By your own admission you are not confident, and social skills need work. Both of those are needed to run a business by yourself. I was 22 when I opened my machine and fab shop with a friend. Back then I was fearless, and jumped in with both feet. After we closed up 6 years later I went to work for a former customer, and several jobs since then.. So, what did I take away from that experience, and the 23 years since I closed up? I learned that I never charged enough, every city/county/state agency wants money from you, you work more than a 40 hour a week job and enjoy it, we made the right choice cash flowing the business rather than getting buried in debt, everything takes longer than you expect, getting customers to pay can be a process, we were not aggressive enough in getting new customers, you want to own the building you work out of, and those 6 years were the only time during my career that I was truly happy going to work. I have made more money than when I had my shop, but I have never been as happy.

 

I want to open another business, and it won't be another shop. Machine and fab shops are very cutthroat today, and the investment in CNC equipment is huge. I am also not as fearless as I used to be. My overhead is pretty low as I am single, no kids, and my only debt is my mortgage, so if I made $4,000 a month I would be more than OK. That is essentially a straight $25 per hr job. One of my passions is cooking, and I just about have a commercial kitchen at home.  I have the equipment to open a restaurant, or a business that makes items like pies for other restaurants/customers. But who knows, I may just go into buying and selling as I seem to find good deals pretty often, and I enjoy the treasure hunt aspect of that too. Whatever you do, do what makes you happy. I don't care how much you are making, if you are not happy, it isn't enough. I know people who have given up well paying corporate jobs to live the simple life and are much happier than when they were rolling in money. Everyone is different. 

 

Definitely keep up on your engineering skills since the tech sector isn't going away anytime soon. Try Frank's classes, and also look into getting some classes for running a small business.  But do it now, not later. I am full of regrets today for not taking more chances when I was younger.  You only get to ride the rollercoaster of life once, make it count, and most of all have fun and enjoy the ride.

 

[LawnJockey]

I switched careers which involved going back to school.  As I saw it I had too, I was in the trades and my back and knees were killing me all the time.  I would injure them and reinjure them constantly.  My friends thought I was crazy, they said you will be 40 by the time you are done.  I thought either way I will be 40.  Anyway, I went to school and eventually law school and then practiced law.  Practicing law was no fun but I never regreted the education.  Getting through school was tough financially, I had to live on a small sailboat that I could not stand up straight in for years so I know about the hardships this involves.

On the plus side you are young and it sounds like you don't have any dependents.  Don't worry about your age if this is truly your calling.  You only have one life.  I am usually one of the first guys here to say go for it when the grouches are scurrying around trying to dream up reasons not to.  I have always found that there are two types of people, the successful who see where they want to be and ask how to get there and then takes the needed steps.  Then there are the losers I call "yes buts".  This second group will always find a reason not to do something and you can spot them by their use of the phrase "yes but".

The only reason I am not jumping up and down saying go for it is it sounds like you haven't been blacksmithing long enough to make such a decision so I would recommend that you take a year while you continue your current job and every non working moment immerse yourself in blacksmithing.  Find the local smiths and volunteer to work for free on weekends and holidays, go to blacksmithing events, read.  If after a year you still have the fire dive in 100%.  If you do the above I am sure your parents will come around too.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Another plan is to do the smithing on the side while keeping your main job. If the smithing takes off and the regular job gets in the way , then quit. It takes time to build a business correctly, and you need money to make it happen. Do not get caught up in the cycle of debt. Too many think they have to have it all right off and borrow to their limit, only to find that their income doesn't meet the debt load. They end up closing and losing everything. I started off in a 1,000 sqft shop with a dinky lathe, and minimal support equipment. As money came in we hit auctions and bought more equipment as needed. The second year we took over the adjoining shop space doubling our size. As we got more customers, and kept growing we bought more equipment, and ended up moving to a 4,000 sqft shop the next year.  When the building was sold 3 years later, and we were forced to vacate, we owned every lathe, milling machine, welder, surface grinder,etc in the shop since we paid cash for it all. Not bad for a couple of twenty somethings. If you own the space you can't get evicted like we did. All we had to do was take our toys and go home. We didn't lose anything to a bank. Start small and grow the company. Keep your costs down by buying used-almost everything in my shop came from an auction and I averaged 10¢ on the dollar of new prices. Figure 5 years, as 66% of companies will fail within that time. If you plan long term, keep money in the account, and put the time in you can make it happen.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Take up custom lighting... 

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning, Jack

What part of the world are you making a shadow?? Your location will help with sensible suggestions.

Like what has been said, Start small, Don't let the bank own you. If you can't pay for it, don't buy it. The one piece of irreplaceable equipment, is between your Ears. Use it!!

Neil

[Crazy Ivan]

I'm gonna be the reckless one and fully encourage you to go for it. Plenty of folks on this forum know about how I'm the 1st to drop everything (literally everything) and do something on a whim. It's by no means an easy way to make a living and I figure I'll probably be physically done by the time I hit 40 with not much of anything to fall back on, but I'm happy right now and for me, that's all that matters. If it is your dream, go for it and do it now. Maybe things work out and you will work 80 hours a week and barely get by. Maybe you will work 80 hours a week and do extremely well for yourself. Maybe it doesn't work out and you will work 40 hours a week for steady pay for someone else but be able to think back at how you went out on a limb, took a chance and dove into your favorite hobby head first and learned alot from it. Lots of what ifs out there but you won't find out unless you go for it. 

Very good advise and opinions above. Take them all into consideration and do what you think is best for you. Deal with any outcome you get as you get there. Doing what makes you happy is way more important than any other social standard of "being "logical" or safe.  Thats what I do and while I haven't got much, I'm still getting there and I'm thankful for what I do have. Most importantly, I'm happy with where I am. 

Best of luck in your decision!

[Jarntagforge]

Hey all, thanks for the replies. I'm at work now so I can't write more at the moment but I live in Finland. Close to the school in Sweden.

One more thing. I'm looking at the school for 4 years first because I have no skills yet. Otherwise the learning by doing would take ages, without a teacher.

Talk to you later!

[Gergely]

Moi Jackhammer, 

on aina mukava tavata suomalaisia tällä kansainvälisellä forumilla! Hyvä kun käyt täällä!

Well as far as making big choices let me put it this way: If I were 26 again and I'd know for sure what would make me happy for an occupation AND I'd have an accessible learning opportunity AND I'd have no special responsibilties in my way to do what I want AND I'd have good backup job skills - I'd wait not a second.

BUT: I have no clear picture about your actual situation so it's all you who has to make the choice. 

Although blacksmithing and dreaming about doing blacksmithing can be pretty different. (Been there done that: 8 hours per day in the chair while my workshop waited for me.) You told us you were about 10 times in a smithy - how did it go? Did you get to do some actual work there? Have you work a dayshift in the shop? Or two days in a row? - I'm asking this only to have you understand: while having a dream is one of the best things, you must focus on staying on the earth, too. 

At the end of my rant I must say, my experience has shown that Finnish people are the kind that makes their choices after thinking it through well. It's a streotype of course but it might be true. So I'm sure that either way you choose you'll do the good choice. Tsemppiä!

Bests:

Gergely

PS: You can write me PM in finnish anytime. I'd be very happy to use that language here "behind the bear's back" (I meant where I live not this forum  ). 

 

[SpankySmith]

Absolutely take your risks while young, you'll get old with a thousand other commitments and anchors and unable to even entertain such possibilities soon enough.  The only real regrets I have in my life are things I SHOULD have done but fear/uncertainty held me back.  There's an expression, "Everything you want lives on the other side of Fear."  Go for it.  You are young enough to recover if things slide south, many many years ahead of you to go in a totally different direction if you decide it's not for you.  As for the social awkwardness, if you end up working under someone instead of running your own shop, that shouldn't be much of an issue.  As a diehard Introvert myself I totally get that - I don't want to be the Upfront person, I want to toil away happily in the background.  It's just how some of us are made.  

Obviously, none of us have to live with the consequences of your decision, so it's easy enough for us to Armchair Quarterback your life, but it sounds like there aren't really any terrible consequences, at least not immediately visible.  Free school, earn just enough for room and board?  Heck, if I were in the area I'd jump at the chance myself and I'm practically an Old Codger!

Go for it. 

[Jarntagforge]

12 hours ago, Gergely said:

You told us you were about 10 times in a smithy - how did it go? Did you get to do some actual work there? Have you work a dayshift in the shop? Or two days in a row?

It went well! I've made 2 knives so far, a tong, a fire poker, a few nails, a ramshead railroad spike knife, some necklaces, a bottle opener. So not real work, just hobby stuff. I also was on a 3-day blacksmithing class. It was a lot of fun and not too tough!

Thanks for all the replies. I don't know how to respond to you all as you don't ask questions, but I wanna say thanks, at least! Most of you say to take the risk while I'm young and have no dependencies. Makes sense. But it's the life after the school that I'm unsure about. Finland is very sparsely populated. 5 million only. The closest city is 80 000 people and Helsinki is 500 000. Also the economy here is bad, schools and libraries are closing. People have no extra money to spend.

And although I like blacksmithing myself, I don't see how black heavy thick metal home decor objects are attractive to regular people  so that leaves gates, knives and tools. I don't wanna be a bladesmith and who needs a gate anyway? So that leaves tools. I could send tools all across Fenno-Scandia, or Europe. That's one possibilty. Also there are so few smiths around. Closest one is like 150 km and makes tools. So I don't have a chance to work with him. I could drive over and talk to him of course.

[SpankySmith]

Jack, pull up a chair for a minute and listen to your Elder here:

I'll be 55 this year, been out of college for 27 years and I'm about to toss everything I've done aside to go get a Masters Degree in a field that absolutely does NOT promise me a job when I am done.  But for me, it isn't about the Ending, it's about the Experience.  I can't WAIT to get into my studies, and if I pop out the other end and can't find a job in that field I will still be immensely grateful for an irreplaceable experience.  There's a reason some of the best advise ever given is to buy experiences and not things.  For me it will be all about the experience of learning.  And trusting that if it is meant to be it will all work out in the end.

If you are THAT kind of excited about learning Blacksmithing, go, go now.  If you're not maybe it's more pipe dream than actual goal.  Only you can tell the difference.  Don't spend 4 years learning something you fundamentally don't care about, but if your passion is real and you know it is, RUN toward it.

[Jarntagforge]

22 minutes ago, SpankySmith said:

But for me, it isn't about the Ending, it's about the Experience.

You're so right. If nothing else, I would get to spend the days doing what I like doing. And when the school's over, whatever happens, I got to spend 4 years doing what makes me happy. What are you going to study? Philosophy?  Some philospher said to be a ruler one had to be at least 50 years old. So you've got that going for you!

[SpankySmith]

1 hour ago, Jackhammer said:

. What are you going to study? Philosophy? 

Close!!  Religious Studies, I double majored in psych and religion as an undergrad. 

[ThomasPowers]

That "hobby stuff" is how a lot of folks pay the bills.   Have you discussed job placement rates with that University for that program?  Graduates you could talk to?

Back a couple of decades ago I remember a professional smith telling us that he had one recurring job for a steel mill that once a year paid off all his overhead for his shop for the year and everything else was profit.  He had the skills and equipment (that he built for the job) and fulfilled a need that the steel mill no longer had in house.

[njanvilman]

I would always try to keep a paying job going while learning.  Use your free time, evenings, and such to learn, practice and get experience.  Many people love forged work, but fewer are willing to pay a fair amount for it.  I always forge for fun and practice, and either keep or give away everything...because I am not dependent on the that.

[natenaaron]

If you have a family don't.  If you are single, go for it.

 

[VaughnT]

Keep your job and study blacksmithing in your off time.

Unless you know for a fact that there's a smithing job waiting for you when you graduate from that school, you're looking at a long hard climb to reach anything approaching a reasonably comfortable lifestyle.

While you might not like the work you're in right now, I've always found that it's far easier to go to work every day when you look at it with the right perspective - that job is just a means to an end, funding the hobby/trade you're trying to learn.  If you quit your job to go to school, getting a part-time job to pay the bills while you study, you're losing out on all the benefits of your current employment and have no idea if you'll like blacksmithing or the part-time job you have to take to make ends meet.

It's very realistic to expect that you might not like blacksmithing enough to want to make it a full-time occupation.  Right now, you're seeing it from the perspective of a hobbyist that's done very little actual smithing, and then only lightweight stuff.  Your impression of the trade is just a bit tinted by the neatness you've touched on, but you haven't seen the back-breaking slog that it can be.

And, building your own business, any kind of business, takes a tremendous amount of skill in other fields.  I spend far more time on the computer trying to drum up sales than I do actually making anything.  Someone once told me that if you can spend 50% of your workweek actually in the shop forging metal, you're doing really good. 

What market research have you done?  It's real easy to say, "I can ship tools all over Europe!"  The reality is that you cannot ship a single tool anywhere unless you have customers willing to buy them.  Just because you make something doesn't mean that someone else will buy it.

Do you have a lot of fairs and festivals that you can demonstrate at?  Are the people of your area really interested in the old stuff?  Are they the types to buy a $40 bottle opener just because they think it's cool?  Do you get the sense that there's a lot of interest in $100 candle stands and $20 key fobs?

If you do small things that don't cost a lot of money to buy, how many sales will you need per month?  If you have a lot of $20 items in your product line, you'll need at least 70 sales a month, every month.  Can you reasonably expect that to happen in a timely fashion?  How long will it be before you build a name for yourself and people will want to buy into your story?

 

[Jarntagforge]

12 hours ago, VaughnT said:

Unless you know for a fact

I don't know anything for a fact. Yes, it is realistic to think that I might not be able to survive on blacksmithing. 

 

12 hours ago, VaughnT said:

Do you have a lot of fairs and festivals that you can demonstrate at?  Are the people of your area really interested in the old stuff?  Are they the types to buy a $40 bottle opener just because they think it's cool?  Do you get the sense that there's a lot of interest in $100 candle stands and $20 key fobs?

No, no no no no. But where is this magical place where people are interested in paying $100 candle stands? My plan is to look at the businesses of other blacksmiths and copy their business plan. They would live far away in southern Sweden anyway so I wouldn't steal their customers. I have no idea how to start up a successful blacksmithing business, but that's what I hope to get out of this school.

[SpankySmith]

On 6/3/2016 at 4:40 PM, natenaaron said:

If you have a family don't.  If you are single, go for it.

 

I have to respectfully disagree.  If you have a family and you're 50 or 60, close to retirement, sure, okay, I would agree.  But this guy is what, his early 20's?  In a job he doesn't love and considering studying for one he thinks he will?  You don't get these kinds of chances when you're 50, 60 with family and mortgage and car payments and bills.  He says he has none of those encumbrances, just a desire to go learn, see if he can make a go of it.  Make your mistakes or take big risks while you're young enough to recover if you fall on your face and don't have the immense responsibilities of adulthood to prevent it. 

I JUST had this conversation recently with a good friend, I was talking about my father, a product of the Great Depression who worked at a government job until he took early retirement because he just couldn't stand doing it another day.  He hated every single moment of his miserable life and consequently made others around him miserable, but he also had NO real options - he had a family of 9, a mortgage, kids to put through school, etc.  To his way of thinking, and yes part of it was generational, you work a job you hate?  So what?  Everyone does.  

THIS generation doesn't think like that....and thank God for the change.  Gather your rosebuds while ye may - change jobs every two years if that's what you want to do and need to do to find one that fits and makes you happy.  This life is far too short.  

[VaughnT]

3 hours ago, Jackhammer said:

I don't know anything for a fact. Yes, it is realistic to think that I might not be able to survive on blacksmithing. 

 

No, no no no no. But where is this magical place where people are interested in paying $100 candle stands? My plan is to look at the businesses of other blacksmiths and copy their business plan. They would live far away in southern Sweden anyway so I wouldn't steal their customers. I have no idea how to start up a successful blacksmithing business, but that's what I hope to get out of this school.

Therein lies the problem with the plan.  Copying what you see other smiths doing doesn't mean you'll have any success at it.  There are a thousand variables that come into play and the only thing you seem to be running on is hope.  

No festivals or fairs to demonstrate at?  Folks you know don't seem interested in expensive bottle openers, and you can't imagine anyone paying $100 for a candle stand..... that does not sound like a good foundation to begin a blacksmithing operation in.  It takes a slew of small sales every month to keep the lights on.  Or, you need to find wealthy customers that will pay really big money for items.  And you need to be able to do that month after month.

That's why I say to not quit your job while you're learning about smithing.  Stick with your job and use your off-time to learn the trade and build up your network of customers.   You've got a good job that pays your bills.  Over the next few years, you can use your days off to learn the basics of smithing while still building your career at work, not losing any seniority, pay raises and the like.  It's not easy, but you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot.

You've got a ton of questions and need to get them answered before you can make an educated decision.  And if that means blacksmithing remains a hobby for awhile, so be it.

[Jarntagforge]

3 hours ago, VaughnT said:

You've got a ton of questions and need to get them answered before you can make an educated decision.  And if that means blacksmithing remains a hobby for awhile, so be it.

I don't see how I can answer those questions on my own, sitting here in my apartment searching on Google. Instead I should be learning the craft and business side from mentors and teachers.

I don't see how I can learn blacksmithing if I need to invent every technique on my own as I would have no teacher. That's so much wasted time and effort. Also if I have a job I have no time to do forging. After the job and preparing dinner and doing chores there's not much time left of the day. Like 4 hours of scratching my head trying to invent the wheel.

There are fairs further away, I would have to travel to a few of those to demonstrate. I'm interested in making axes. Everyone wants a good axe.

VaughnT you're not providing any solutions, you just look for reasons not to do it. You say I should have all the skills of a senior master blacksmith and businessman from the start, which is impossible.

[SpankySmith]

Jack, what you've been given here, in so many words and from various different voices is this:. You basically have three choices here.

1). Stop:. Blacksmithing takes decades, not four years, to get good enough to make a living at, and even then it's a coin toss.

2).Proceed with Caution:  keep the day job and find a way to dip your toes in the water of smithing while you earn a good income.

3) Go.  Take the (risky but also potentially rewarding) leap, leave your current life for school.

IFI'ers have given you lots of opinions on each of these options, but ultimately as I said earlier none of us can armchair quarterback your life nor will any of us have to live with your decision, good or bad.  Only you can do that.

and I sincerely do wish you best of luck.