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I Forge Iron

Modular Forge And Metal Work Components


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Doug requested I post a thread about my setup over here, hopefully it may give other some ideas, as well as if anyone has any ideas to contribute I'm always open to a different way to try things.

About five years ago, I had expressed an interest to get into doing some forging to my mother and that I wanted to buy a propane forge from NC Tool on the recommendation of a good friend. I was going thru a separation and divorce at the time and was pretty low on cash. She handed me her credit card and told me to buy the one I wanted and that it was a "divorce gift" :D

No argument there. 

After I got the forge, I built a rolling stand for it and decided to build some modular tooling to go with it. As I've already mentioned, I'm not a blacksmith. I don't do metal forming in a traditional sense, but more forming of sheet metal then joining it together to create an object as opposed to forming the entire thing out of one piece of material. The set of modular tools I've put together have served me well for what I do with them, and I also am allowed a very flexible system I can quickly change and modify on the fly with almost no tools needed to disassemble anything.

Everything with this system is mounted to 2" square tubing that's mounted into the inside of 2.5" 1/4" wall tubing similar to a trailer hitch receiver. I have a number of these ports in my main welding table, the forge cart itself and a work table which also has wheels for easy movement. I'm really tight on space, so everything has to be able to be stowed and rolled out of the way if need be.

I have a lot of pictures, I think they will best explain the system better than a lengthy description will. First up, is a shot of my portable vises, trailer ball strikers and a small anvil with a T fixture and lengths of standoff tubes to raise the components off the workspace they're placed on. 

This is the forge. A Whisper Daddy from NC Tool. Been very happy with it for what I do with it.

Some pix of most of the components..

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In these pix, I have three trailer ball striking anvils in three different sizes. These can be mounted in either the square holes on my tables, into the T fixture or into the hardie hole in my anvil. As you can see in the pics, I use a detent ball pin to hold components in place when in the T fixture, which places it on a horizontal plane.

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In these pics, I demonstrate one of my two small bench vises in the modular setup both vertically and horizontally. I also have a really cool Toledo pipe vise for holding round or square stock for twisting, or whatever else is needed. All of these vises store on the forge cart in dedicated holders made for them.

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Next up, I have a couple small anvils I use for detail work. The smaller of the two isn't what you would call a "real" anvil, but with the long post base on it, it works quite well for detail work and can be mounted on a vertical plane with the T fixture if the pointed end of the horn is needed. You can see on of the spacer tubes being used to increase the height of the small anvil in the fixture. The bigger of the two is a cast anvil of unknown origin. It has a fantastic rebound for what it is and is also quite useful for certain tasks, or when I want an anvil on my work table in addition to using the Hay Budden.

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I also made up a couple portable tool and hammer holding racks which can be positioned anywhere on my tables or carts with the square ports. I can put a variety of air tools and other items in them for easy access during a job. I have several needle scalers and a number of air hammers I use during forging, I can load the holder up and just connect the air hose when I need the tool. I run two 50' reels and can connect to two tools at once.

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I have a stock bender I made from angle and a Heinrich friction vise. It looks pretty cool, but doesn't work all that good. It needs some tweaking to better hold stock while it's being bent by hand. One of those built on the fly ideas that sounded a lot better than it actually is :D : D

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I have the torch holder tree, as I covered in its own thread. It can also be moved anywhere in my shop where there's a square hole to put it in. I have a couple other things not pictured which include a work light holder and post for a Foredom tool.

 

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Last but certainly not least, I made a fixture to hold my large Milwaukee straight grinder for doing tight space work hands free. I used some cord adapters I bought at harbor freight and a heavy duty light switch box. I just plug the grinder into the switch and plug an extension cord into the other end. Lock the trigger and let 'er rip. For all the safety hounds out there YES, I DO HAVE A GUARD FOR IT!! I had to do some close grinding with it last time I used it and removed it to do the work. It can also be mounted in the T fixture and be used in a vertical position if needed.

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Finally, the cart all loaded up. Any size propane cylinder can be used, I just have a small one on it for portability.

Well, that's about the long and short of it. I apologize for the length of the post. Thanks for viewing!

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Thanks man. Still a work in progress for sure. I love that hammer tree you have in your avatar. One for every day of the month!

 

If  anyone is wondering about the shiny appearance of the tools etc, I coat everything that's bare metal in my shop with clear semi gloss lacquer. Less work surfaces of course. It provides some protection for the metal against rust, can be easily recoated without any prep and if it scrapes off, you don't have nasty paint residue all over your gear.

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Lovely set up; you should show it off over at armourarchive.org as well as armourers would be interested in it.

However I am a bit perplexed by your views on blacksmithing and find it odd that the boiler making smiths of the early industrial revolution or Jean Tijou in the late 1600's or any of the armoursmiths of the renaissance who all were making items out of a number of pieces of sheet and fastening them together to get their final forms; can't be considered "traditional".  Single piece items are not the norm for traditional smiths; but it more the norm for MODERN blacksmiths who try to avoid forge welding whenever possible.  The rise of relatively inexpensive power hammers also allow many smiths to work down large pieces of stock to avoid a simple weld; but again this is relatively MODERN NOT TRADITIONAL.

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2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Lovely set up; you should show it off over at armourarchive.org as well as armourers would be interested in it.

However I am a bit perplexed by your views on blacksmithing and find it odd that the boiler making smiths of the early industrial revolution or Jean Tijou in the late 1600's or any of the armoursmiths of the renaissance who all were making items out of a number of pieces of sheet and fastening them together to get their final forms; can't be considered "traditional".  Single piece items are not the norm for traditional smiths; but it more the norm for MODERN blacksmiths who try to avoid forge welding whenever possible.  The rise of relatively inexpensive power hammers also allow many smiths to work down large pieces of stock to avoid a simple weld; but again this is relatively MODERN NOT TRADITIONAL.

First off, thank you for the compliments. I read a lot of your posts and know you are a man who knows this craft and knows it well. As to your being perplexed, maybe I can explain with some background regarding my experience, or lack of it....

My reasoning for not considering myself a "blacksmith" is frankly because I feel I don't posess enough of a skill set in a more well rounded manner to really consider myself one. I felt it would be best to err on the side of caution since joining this site (a site with REAL blacksmiths) and just say "I'm a guy who bangs on metal and has a little skill at it" rather than use the therm "blacksmith" and draw the ire of someone who truly is one. See, I don't know much of anything about the history of this stuff, or all the correct terminology, etc. I have no clue how to do a lot of the most basic "traditional" rudiments practiced in the craft mostly because that's just not what I'm into, and I've never had any kind of training or instruction from someone who actually knew what they were doing. To me, when I think of a "traditional blacksmith" I'm thinking of the guy who takes the metal and turns it into something without cutting the shape out or doing a lot of stock removal. The guy that can take a crude bar and turn it into a delicate leaf, all on the anvil, without "cheating" as it were, doing it how I do. That's what I meant by "all one piece" Again, pardon my lack of knowledge for not applying the correct terminology.

 

What I'm trying to get at is, The "traditional blacksmith" can do it for real. I take all the shortcuts, then just do the forging for detail and definition. I weld everything together, never even made a forge weld, nor do I have the slightest idea how to go about it. I hope that makes sense.

Such being the case, and to be perfectly honest, I really didn't wanna end up in some stupid terminology argument (I would call it something else on a non G rated site) with someone far more versed in the craft than I, simply because I called myself a "blacksmith" and didn't "have the right to"....Or stated something incorrect because I didn't know the right terminology, and saw it in my head different than it actually is to those in the know. I've been there with those kind of arguments on the Internet. Cut my teeth on some really rough boards where the slightest misspoken definition would bring the wrath of all the know it alls, trolls, bashers and what not. Of course, there are some who will try and put words into your mouth, or try and insinuate you are speaking in exhaustive terms just to create an argument with you. I don't see that here, but I've been around a whole week or so. Barely got my feet wet lol.

Best to just say I'm clueless and try not to step on anyone's toes..

I absolutely WANT to learn more, and hopefully will have a chance to hook up with some ppl close by. 

I have a wicked Gibson Les Paul, and used to play regularly. However, I would NEVER consider myself a "guitarist" since I pretty well stink at playing guitar. :D 

I do excell at air guitar however, and even consider myself a Master of the craft.... :lol: 

Your insight clears my thinking up a lot on the matter. 

IMHO of course

 

 

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I think you've taken some good ideas a bit past the point of diminishing returns. Not that I've ever gotten carried away myself you understand. I've heard of it happening though. :rolleyes: It's a pretty common practice regardless of the craft, don't sweat it. Another corner a person can paint themselves into is looking for the "perfect" anything.

Calling a thing traditional is a decent way to catch attention regardless of the craft as well. A LOT of guys can get right uppity about blacksmithing the "traditional" way and seems most of us have our own take on what that means. My personal definition being "Faster, easier, better, cheaper " is the only true universal blacksmith tradition. Improve any one and your profit margin improves.

Thomas is a historian with an impressive library on many levels, getting called by him is a good thing. ;) Keeping terminology to an agreed upon language, trade jargon is important so we know what someone means without having to spend time describing everything. Nobody's going to yell at you for inventing your own meanings just don't be surprised if we invent a few in reply. You aren't the first person to think making projects from a single unbroken piece of iron/steel is somehow "true blacksmithing." I recall seeing it in a book once too but it's a long shot from real. Who is going to handle, (lift, turn, etc.) single pieces larger than necessary when simply riveting, banding, welding, etc. means they can work with 1/10 the weight?

I'm a hobbyist with occasional lapses into the black. I prefer being a hobbyist, nobody and I mean NOBODY  calls me and complains if I'm late for work or missed a deadline or . . .  whatever. I do this for fun I'll give you one guess my response if someone makes it unfun. :blink: 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

 

 

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Yeah, it is more so an effort on my part not to step on anyone's toes. I don't sweat stuff like that. But know better when it comes to calling myself something I don't think a really am. I guess you could call it professional respect. 

Either way, it's really not important. I just do what I do, and try to put quality work out of my shop.

I sincerely hope this thread doesn't end up hijacked into an academic argument of one word taken out of context. That would be most unfortunate, and what was in the beginning, what I was hoping to avoid.

IMHO of course

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Nice set up & well thought out ! I am steeling some of you're fixture Ideas

= the hammer & tool rack & vice on the side of the table

years ago I installed hitch tube brackets under my 8'x8' welding table I can plug in a 12' - sq-t

2x2 & able to adjust as needed I use them as saw horse  I have plug in legs for the ends It triples my work area when needed

I mite think about cutting a sq hoke in the top of the table Now LOL :)

also on my brackets I drilled hole & welded 5/8 #8 nuts theres 2 each on the side & on the bottom tighten with a T wench

and & whatever is there will not move

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Cool. Steal away! :D  I don't have any horizontal tubes on my table, but I may just add some at some point for the heck of it. I did a rather involved set of security bar and door panels last year and welded some additional 3/8" plate to my table to increase the working surface. Now my square holes are inset about 3" into the table now. I have to cut it all back off but it will likely take some time so I've put it off for now. I'm also of the thinking that one does not need a super fancy fixture table with tapped holes and a Blanchard ground surface. I tack weld all my fixturing to the top of the table and cut it off when it's no longer needed.

That T fixture has a couple tapped holes in it to secure whatever is in it a little more if need be. To date, I've used every single one of the components I've made, save for that pipe vise. I use the little vises a lot when I want one near where I'm working and don't need a big vise.

Works for me anyways.

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I'm just crabby when my blood sugar gets low; (OK Frosty, I'm Crabby *all* the time, it's just worse when the blood sugar gets low...); but please remember that blacksmithing was a *job* for most of it's history and so doing things better, faster, cheaper was the norm save for when odd quirks of style or Guild mandates prevented it.

I'm also odd as I consider blacksmithing done in the past 150 years of so as "modern", (since the invention of the Bessemer/Kelly process popularized mild steel) and am perfectly happy in considering traditional as being 1000 years ago...Most folks consider "traditional" as being in the last 100 years when smithing was radically changing.  Of course 1000 years ago was just a couple of centuries before some smiths started to use coal in their forges instead of charcoal...)

I've been involved with the SCA for 38 years now and so see a lot of folks making armor who would love your set up.

Just remember that the goal is to make stuff not just to have the most tools.  I tend to make tools as I need them and so not waste space and time on things I don't end up using. BTAIM I have had items on my rack/shelves that I didn't use for a dozen years that became *THE* necessary tool for a project...I tend to pick up possibles at the scrapyard/fleamarket and of course have begun thinking of the next shop expansion....

And a common jargon term for that mounting system is a gazinta; folks have been discussing them for around 20 years wrt blacksmithing....My plan for the next expansion is going to have a very large gazinta in the middle of the concrete forge to hold a 6" post vise on a structural sq tubing that I can drop in and lift out so when I need to manipulate a 20' piece of stock I can and it's not in the way when I need to back the truck into the shop.

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I really appreciate your insight Thomas. You are incredibly knowledgeable and have the respect of many including myself. Im pretty clueless to the world of blacksmithing in general, but as I said I really want to learn more and apply it to what I do. That's a big reason I felt an explanation was in order. I didn't wanna come off like someone who knew about something he did not, and if I'm incorrect about something, I humbly accept the correction and try to apply the knowledge learned next time around.

try to anyways!! :lol:

I'm hoping to hit the forging thing seriously (forgive the pun) this summer. I work for myself out of my garage and had big plans when I first got the forge and made some of the stuff I've already posted. Then, money got tight, I lost the part time job I had and I was basically turning machine work (welding machinery and repairs) out of my shop just to pay the bills. The smithing got put on hold since. I've gotten myself into a position recently so I can spend a few dedicated months putting some stuff together. I'll be asking questions along the way, so forgive me if I end up being a pain lol.

Ill remember the Gazinta too.

When I trained in martial arts, my instructor once invited a couple of SCA guys he knew thru another instructor to the class and we got to train with them for the weapons portion of the session. It was really neat working with guys with an entirely different energy and flow of movement. I can't recall offhand exactly what they had trained in specifically but they could both handle a rattan stick quite well. At the end of the day, most all the principles involved as far as edged weapon combat systems are the same tho.  As Bruce Lee said, "A Kick is just a kick, a punch is just a punch". We used a system called Lameco for the Fillipino martial arts portion of our training. The SCA guys stood and moved a little differently than we did, but many of the basic techniques were similar or the same. 

They were both very kind and it was a blast. It would have been cool had they have brought armour and swords, but you can't have everything ;)

Our class only consisted of myself, one other guy and the instructor. We trained in his garage.

Any time you can "fight" against someone besides the instructor, that's always a good thing. :D 

Again, I appreciate your responses Thomas. I look forward getting to know you and the rest of this fine bunch here in the future.

Steve

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One of the big reasons people like participating in the SCA's Pennsic War; you don't often get a chance to be in field battles with 1000 people on each side!  (Me I camped with the iron smelters and we would smelt iron ore in our camp using a short stack scandinavian smelter we used to build from clay from the creek, chopped straw, etc...)

If you ever want to discuss sources or the history of the craft count me in (and welcome!)

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Things are usually self correcting on Iforge, Glenn set it up that way and it works pretty well, meaning if Thomas or I are in a low BG or TBI crabby mood we or someone often say something or intervene in a  (insert "secret code" phrase or word here) way to cool each other's jets.

Unless I'm doing a public demo I refer to myself as someone who "blacksmiths" as in craftsman rather than as A Blacksmith, Tradesman. Before the head injury I could probably have blacksmithed in the black or at least self supporting level. Public demos are ,in my opinion, theater. I demo with the intent to entertain visually and verbally I'm not teaching a class but if the audience learns things in spite of eating the turkey leg or repeating myths I've done my job. The last couple larger demos I have had a beginner demoing with me so folk could get a sense of what goes on for a first timer. That and using a brick pile forge puts blacksmithing on an affordable level.

Your example of the value having visiting karateka in the dojo is a good one. Sensei Bill had an open door policy, other styles and club members were always welcome. The same holds true for any skilled craft, just watching someone else do their thing is educational. I've never watched someone at the anvil without learning things, even if they're in the (don't do THAT!) category.

Gozintas are a solid design concept and the only real recommendation I'd make regarding your bench is to put them over the legs rather than the wheels. The more rigid the support the more efficient the tooling will move metal regardless of the metal or thickness.

When I planned and built my shop I laid out 2" receiver tube gozintas flush with the floor on a 24" grid pattern. And for icing on the over kill cake all the gozintas are connected by a sub floor exhaust system. Rather than Sucking smoke and fumes out of the shop by sucking all the warm air out a few times over I have table legs that socket into the gozintas and will exhaust smoke, fumes, etc. directly. In winter warm is a valuable thing and I don't want to have to exchange the entire shop volume of warm air with maybe sub zero clean air and have to warm it again.

The sub floor exhaust system sucks it down under the floor to a blower in a corner that exhausts it at eve lever in back. In general it draws the warm air down under the floor and the floor and grade exchanges it's warmth. Exhaust temperature is the same as soil temperature. It also tends to draw the cold air off the floor.

I've been putting gozintas on tables and drill rig decks for I don't know how long, 30 years probably? They're good things.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

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Thomas, I think the SCA stuff is really, really awesome. I know very little besides the contact I had with those guys back then, and what I've read online about it. I'm sure I'll have more questions, but I try to research things first, at least as best as I can. Nobody likes spoon feeding a guy and that usually gets old real quick. I can appreciate why some guys don't have much patience for questions that can be easily answered by just doing a little looking around beforehand. I'll take a look at the armour site you mentioned and check it out. 

Frosty, I've noticed in my short time here that you guys (and gals) got things pretty well covered and things run smoothly. On the site I admin on, we have a wide cross section of overlapping trades and experiences. For the most part, everyone keeps each other in check. Both of you and Mr Powers obviously contribute a great deal to this site, and I've seen very little of anyone going nuts on anyone. At least as far as I've read anyways. :P

The few instances I have seen ppl get ripped here, it was usually deserved by the looks of it.

I don't have a ton of MA experience, but I trained real serious for a solid 2 years. Jun Fan/Kali with JKD concepts. I worked  with my instructor, he was a security officer at the hotel we both worked in when I lived in Las Vegas. I grew up there. He was a good dude and I learned a lot form him. More about myself than anything else, but I think you know what I mean when I say that. The journey of self discovery is usually far more poignant and lasting than the actual combative skills you acquire. At least for me it was. I try to apply those principles in everything I do. Epically fail once in awhile, but that's why we got hands and knees, so we can pick ourselves up when we fall down.

Your shop sounds pretty cool. I wish I had more room, I got a lot of stuff packed into my little garage. 

Speaking of which, I gotta get my lazy butt back to work. :D

Thanks again for the insight guys. It really means a lot. 

Steve

 

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Not intending to hijack but would 

respond to one comment?

 

You want to cheat and take shortcuts

Cool. We all want to save time.

So.....learn the traditional methods.

Why?

I can punch a hole in hot metal way faster than you can drill one.

I can cut off a bar on a hotcut faster than any saw.

I can forge a taper faster (and easier and cheaper) than you can grind one.

Etc., etc., etc.

Your tooling?

Cool.

 

Good work. Keep it up.

But if you want to cheat and cut corners.......use a forge. 

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Hmmm.  I have no doubt that you can beat modern power tools in some applications, BUT you have some startup time waiting for the forge to get to temp before you can act.  You're also burning fuel during the ramp up and during whatever action you take.  Unless your fuel is free it's probably not cheaper than the electricity the power tool uses for a few minutes. To me all methods have their place and are situation dependent.

If I want to drill a single hole I'm pretty sure I can grab the drill, chuck the bit, and be done before you can light your forge and get it hot enough to punch.  On the other hand if the forge is already hot I'm sure you could punch several holes before I get the first one done with the drill.

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Point made. I think I illustratively already explained where I was coming from. The technicalities at this point are really irrelevant. Please don't hijack the thread with an exhaustive discussion involving such.

Thanks guys.

 

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And please be assured that I understand exactly what you and arftist are saying and hope to develop the skills as mentioned in the posts.. I think the point I made in mine were beginning to be taken out of context.

I meant the comment in regards to both posts with complete respect :)

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