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12 minutes ago, Leather Bill said:

As an aside,do you see ribbons or other approaches soon making present tube burner design obsolete?  When you prefect your present burner built around hand torch nozzle,do you think it has poential of using multiple to replace single tube burner in small forge?

No; it simply isn't a question of the best burner for every task, nor any other practical matter. The bottom line is what people feel like building. People get into blacksmithing or most any other metal work, basically because they feel like doing so; they aren't inclined to be preached do about "what's best for them. " That's before we even get into practical considerations, which boil down to "no one shoe fits all" There is no such thing as the perfect burner for all tasks.

My present burners are designed to be used in pairs, on small equipment, as a matter of convenience. It boils down to a balance between construction ease and cost, with additional costs for upgrading the fuel system later, versus ease of use. Multiple burners are best served with a manifold and copper tubing. I'm not a big fan of copper tubing, nor a critic of it. Whatever serves you best at the time. I'm into more choices. What people choose is up to them.

Larger burners are best serve with hose, valves, regulator, and refillable fuel cylinder.

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I call them a gun because that's what the furnace service called them when he was working on our boiler and we got to talking. 

In my opinion ribbon burners are currently the "NEW THING," fad. I use my single nozzle forge as or more often than the NARB forge. I use my oxy propane torch for localized heat. Propane burners heat everything that gets close to the door and anything inside the door comes to forging temps. Makes peining a rivet without causing deformation to some shapes a real trick. 

Mike and I have different motives and logic to the way we do things so there are times we make the other grit his teeth. We certainly agree on some things though.

There is NO perfect anything forge related. Your skills and needs change as you practice the craft most of us have our first forge or two collecting dust somewhere. One of the universal mistakes humans make is designing: tools, equipment, methods, etc. when we don't know how to do it. Search Dunning Kruger, they wrote an excellent article on the subject. So good it's called the "Dunning Kruger Effect" even.

Anyway, I'll be following along and doing my best not to jump in. Mike has it covered nicely. My name came up tough. :)

Frosty The Lucky.

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41 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Mike and I have different motives and logic to the way we do things so there are times we make the other grit his teeth. We certainly agree on some things though.

If we agreed on everything, one of us would be unnecessary.

There are times when you change my views.

There are times when I need to reflect and make up my mind about something you think; that can take months, 'cause I'm slooooooow, and getting slower.

There are times when I agree to disagree; these are the best times, because people have sharp choices to make for themselves. However, because of you, I have learn that the phrase "loyal opposition" can sometimes have meaning, for I am your loyal opposition :)

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Now I'm all misty eyed, curse you! If we agreed all the time we wouldn't have anything to talk about. You tend to make me reevaluate darned near everything I think I know about burners. Among other things.

Loyal opposition works I guess but we don't disagree with everything; how loyal is that? :huh:

One of the toughest things for me though is NOT getting involved in conversations between other folks and burners. Mike and  have always made different burners and both work but so many other guys are coming up with really SWEET designs. I have to bite my tongue and not jump in and say NO that isn't how it's done! Robert Grauman taught me that one when theforge list and artmetal list were about the only place to fid metal heads online. He visited the state and we took a sight seeing day trip. We were talking burners and I hadn't brought my graph paper so describing the T burner was all verbal.

Maybe a year later I get an excited email from him saying he'd made a 1 1/2" T burner and was casting iron in 20lb. pours with it. He included a picture and I ALMOST hit send on the email explaining how he'd gotten it all wrong. The pic showed a beautiful flame and he'd been casting iron with it so I held my keys.

The pic? A "Sidearm" burner. 

Different is good, even the ridiculously barmy ideas are good. Everything is a lesson, some of the best are the, "DON'T DO THAT!:o" lessons. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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Us-uns that are not "burner heads"; are hoping new burner gurus are coming along that are willing to help others as we know that  folks are not around forever.  Some of us were sweating bullets just with the Birch incident!  Shoot I'm aging too; though as a traditionalist I've asked for a log pyre and not a gasser!

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I'm answering fewer and fewer burner questions all the time, other people are answering well enough I don't need to. Some of the new gang are making things I don't have a good enough handle on to opine in a meaningful way. Worse many folks think I know my stuff even regarding things I don't know enough about. 

Not being around forever is a thing and I have a bucket list I'd like to start filling. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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The only part of this that is surprising is that, as near as I can tell, naturally aspirated gas  burners first started being built by the Aussies; by the end of the nineties, when I got involved they were already doing oil burners, and now pretty much zip. Did that generation all die off or something?

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Not to change the subject as this is a great thread.. But Mike since you brought up oil burners.. 

I've been interested in oil burners for a long time..  Most of the early production work here was done with oil burner forges..  Love to pick someones brain about getting them setup correctly..  Lots of them burned the thick fuel oil from what I have seen so the pipes run along part of the forge for preheat.. 

 

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2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

as near as I can tell, naturally aspirated gas  burners first started being built by the Aussies

They've been around a LOT longer than that. When I started tinkering the internet wasn't so bloated with marketing drek and you could search the US patent server easily. 

The earliest NA burner patent I found was for in "Improved blacksmith's burner" made with pipe and a rolled conic intake flare from 30 years before the American Civil War, 1832 IIRC. Not long after the American Civil War someone evidently invented screw together plumbing and you see what looks just like a Reil type linear burner again patented as an Improve forge burner. They were burning Brown gas as fuel like most everybody.

I didn't have much luck with the British patent server but did find gas lights in American patent server that used linear NA inducers to feed the flame, registered in the first few years there was an American Patent office.

Jennifer: From what I've seen most oil burners either require serious oil preheating or a high pressure oil pump and a nozzle that atomizes the oil. 

At one time I was really interested in an oil fired forge but getting it to work well was so much more trouble and maintenance than propane I lost interest. There are some serious danger issues as well so I generally try to discourage folks.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Frosty,  from what I have seen they are pretty simple, but then again, when someone is using something daily it seems simple. 

I have never found any good source of information so have no idea of what it really takes. 

I have seen the newer production style atomizers using air pressure to syphon the oil into the stream which is then ignited.  

A great film is the Steven's axe company.. They were using oil fired forges and is probablly some of the best footage I've seen.  

I know that diesel fuel burner are being used but not quite as intersted..  I mean neat, but was more interested in the older tech..  

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Back in the day when epa was kicking off,used motor oil was closely monotored and disposal was expensive.  A friend had a garage heated by a 2 barrel wood heater.  He first dripped used oil into the heater but only created smoke while saving little wood.  We tinkered with a hydraulic pump driven by an electric motor that  resulted in so much smoke and stench a private school 1/2 mile away called fire marshal to report tires being incenderated.  When the deputy showed up he asked if we had gone outside to see the smoke.   Someone suggested it might be starving for oxygen so we added a blower.  Like Frosty said "there's serious danger issues".   In short order the barrels began glowing,self induced draft sounded like a train,flue pipe melted and the shop roof was damaged before oil could be turned off.  

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13 hours ago, Frosty said:

There are some serious danger issues as well so I generally try to discourage folks.

I seem to remember reading something you posted about an oil fired forge and a mushroom cloud. Am I mistaken? 

Pnut

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Have you guys checked out Colin Peck's "The Artful Bodger's Waste Oil Furnace"? He has been pretty successful with an oil burner for a casting furnace. I have his book but only got it recently so I have not had a chance to do a build. Exhaustive reading & research will be completed first of course.

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There is a ton of info and video's on casting furnaces as well as for heating sources for shop or home. 

 

Not much in terms of forges though.

 

Marc1 from what I remember uses an oil fired forge.  But not sure as to how he has it setup. Could be totally wrong.

 

I think that the topic should have its own thread and has derailed the burner 101 long enough. 

Maybe one  of the admins can bisect this out. 

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2 hours ago, pnut said:

I seem to remember reading something you posted about an oil fired forge and a mushroom cloud. Am I mistaken? 

Pnut

That was a pottery kiln, a power failure stopped the burner for a little while and when it was restarted there was a large cloud of fumes that went up like a small fuel air explosive. I wasn't present but a number of the neighborhood folks were. 

I don't recall who posted the video of the waste oil burner, marc or another Aussie but it burned oil in a chamber then blew the flame into a forge, all very yellow and fluttery when it slowed down some. He never drew a piece of yellow hot steel from a forge even if he beat on one in the video. What drew my attention was the oxy accet set with the hoses running into the area by the anvil.

The oil forges I'm familiar with that are efficient and effective are all in commercial settings and pretty large.

Frosty The Lucky.

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