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Mikey98118

Burners 101

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On 12/21/2019 at 7:23 PM, Iceman35 said:

I have decided on a paint can forge

Iceman, How's it goin with the build?

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Hello again, it's been awhile. I got some help here with this mig modded Reil burner 6mth back. This has been one great burner, and I would recommend it hands down. 

2"-3/4" reducer with a brass T tapped for an 0.035 contact tip. 8" mixing tube and a step nozzle to 1 1/4" with 1 1/2" over hang. I could turn down to 1psi and up to 30 psi. General forging done at 5psi and heavy stock 7-10 psi. I would get 15-18hrs from a 30# tank. 

My nozzle finally burnt out (slow flame so it sat inside the nozzle a scooch) so I pulled the burner and reshaped the port into a flare with some more kast-o-lite, as it set I ground my nozzle into place from the outside so it has a shelf to butt against and then made the kast-o-lite flush to the inside of the nozzle. Once set I used some mortar to smooth the voids left from the pebbles and finished it off by sanding smooth as the mortar firmed up. 

I have the 1 1/4" step nozzle over hanging the mixing tube by 1/2" then the port in the liner goes from 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" over 1 1/2".  I think that simulates a 5 deg ish flare ish shape. 

I've been able to drop down to a 6" mixing tube and my flame starts in the cast part of the flare/nozzle instead of in the steel and holds the flame nicely too. (also much quieter) 

I'm thinking this is a decent flame and the closest to neutral I've made. 

Thank you for all the help you guys gave and this page in general.  

20200205_100518.jpg

20200130_141818.jpg

20200130_141916.jpg

This is the forge and the original burner before these last changes. 

20190628_135007.jpg

Oh ya and with the shorter mixing tube and refined burner port I have almost no DB at general temp (5psi) and let's say 2-3" of DB at heavy stock temp (10psi)

20190723_133321.jpg

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Looks good Trevor. My only suggestion would be to put your pressure gauge on the regulator, there should be a plugged port for one on the output side. There won't be enough pressure drop between the reg and mig tip to measure with a good gauge. There will however be some pressure drop to the mig tip which is between the reg and your gauge so it can't read accurately. relocating the gauge to the reg where you'll be adjusting pressure where it's easy to read instead of several feet away. Make sense?

Frosty The Lucky.

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Thanks Frosty. The first 3 pics are new the last two are old/original.

This is an old pic of the burner I threw in for reference, I moved that gauge back when I was first building this based on your advice. I don't really use the gauge anymore like you say the sound will tell you where you're at, I did like having it for reference in the beginning and I only use the numbers for description to others but point out the orifice I use too. More often I describe my settings by percentage instead again for other peoples reference's. I'll run around 30-40% throttle for warm up and heavy stock and general forging between 15 and 20%

After learning about burners here the whole PSI thing has kind become a pet peeve TBH. People are like FA is the way to go, I weld at 3psi when I had a venturi I had to use 20psi" they forget to mention that they tripled their orifice size and that they are actually using more gas :huh: 

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Oh great, first time we talk in I don't know how long and I'm repeating myself already. . .<sigh> Good to see it's working for you.

I had to stop trying to explain the orifice size vs. psi thing some folk got upset. Gun or Na doesn't make a difference how hot the forge gets is a matter of how much fuel air you put in the forge per second. It's not that guys forget to mention, usually they don't know so their beliefs are safe.

Are you going to stick around and show us pictures, tell bad jokes and generally contribute to the cat herd cocktail party that a gathering of blacksmiths usually lives up to being?

Frosty The Lucky.

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You know I said last time I was here that I was going to do just that....... I failed thus far :( Now that I have this burner and forge running well I'm starting to plan out my next build, I get as excited about building forges and burners as I do forging. I'll try my hand at a write up and create an actual post here not just throwing pics onto FaceBook, FB is good and all and there is some good info on there but when I need to learn I come here and creep. I guess I should finally join the party and maybe give not just take ;) 

I've spent most of my time here in "the past" reading through old posts mainly on burners and forges, I'm going to start cruising the active threads and seeing whats's what I think I have a few recent projects that I could share.  

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Speaking for the first photo; it shows a very good flame. Your methods seem sound. I would suggest the further step of painting the refractory with one of the several re-emissive coatings (Plistix would be my first choice) you can buy from Glenn.

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Thanks Mickey I was pretty excited when I seen this shoot out that hole, with no way of knowing exactly how it would react was a little nerve racking since you don't get an easy adjustment when it comes to cast refractory. I should try and order something like if not that sooner than later, I would have by now but things are just a scooch harder to source in Canada I'll contact Glenn and see what happens thanks for the tip.

 

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It was just the logical next step. The magic moment of discovery was and remains yours. Whether you logically lay out the steps for others to follow, or not, is a separate thing. Nothing can change a timeless moment; no thief can steal it; it can't be taxed to death; keep it bright in your memory, and let other such moments join it :D

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Well said and thanks again. Next I am going to take a crack at your burner, not that I want to replace mine but I just like building these things it makes me feel like a mad scientist ;) 

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I think I'm going to adopt that one Mike, beautifully said. You are a poet.

Frosty The Lucky.

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You know, you guys helped me and I then trickled that knowledge down to help many others over on FB. Lots of guys don't listen and take the easy route but then there's a few guys that listen and solve their problem be it forge, burner, other project. I'll spend plenty of time communicating back and forth and then when they get where they want to be I give them a "like". You could have done the same and I would still be happy with my results but you went one step further and validated the time and effort in a way that put a smile on my face. It may sound sappy but that meant a lot, we all can do that for others, it took what 45 sec to type out but I'll remember that every time I light my forge. If we all did the same the world would be a much happier place. I will try and carry this message forward:)

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So I've decided to build my second forge after using my first on lightly for about a year. After reading through the forms it came to my attention that I was possibly giving my self lung cancer by using a poorly lined forge. So I scrapped the old one and now I'm on my way with a 30 lb propane take for the new shell. Im going to line the shell two layers of 1 inch k wool followed by a kastolite 30 hard shell then a kiln wash of either ITC or some other "reflecting" coat. I think I've done the math right and I want to use the frosty t burner with my lining im looking at around 700 cubic in give or take and everything I read says better to build it big and turn it down than not have enough so in that line I know for sure I need at least 2 burners 3/4 I was wondering if I could do one burner 1 inch instead would that be okay instead of duplicating my work and making two burners id rather use one if I can. is the fuel consumption better with 1 larger burner or would the 2 smaller burners be better ? If the answers are buried somewhere in here and this is a redundant question im sorry I know you all answer tons of questions over and over.  

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Normally, I would argue with what sounds like a "bigger is better" assumption. BUT, this ain't your first rodeo, so I must assume you have your reasons...:)

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Sorry if I misspoke by "bigger is better" I mostly mean id rather have a little to much burner and tune it down vs not having enough to get to forge welding heats

And really I did learn a lot from my first forge the biggest thing I learned was that I don't know very much at all and that I needed to research and plan ahead so I can execute a nice build. safely 

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You did not misspeak about burner sizes; that view is quite right. I'm wondering about the forge size.

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its a standard 30 lb propane tank off the top of my head its 12.25 in dia 21 in long but I plan on casting the ends of it flat to help reduce cubic in with how thick I want to make the ends I was coming up with around 14-16in in length. I can come up with a 20lb forge if needed I just jumped on the 30lb because it was free. Do you think the bigger tank is over kill ?

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I’m going with a double burner set up of the frosty t design my forge chamber will be roughly 14” long how far apart should the burners 

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Evenly spaced between openings and burners. Approx 1/3 the length of the chamber between them all.

Frosty The Lucky.

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What Inhibits Burner Progress?

If you build  linear burners correctly, they will be just as good as any Mikey burner. I don't believe that jet-ejector burners are inherently better than linear...these days. I used to think so because it used to be so, but no more. The hottest burner design I know of is linear!!! The 3D burner thread about Another Frankenburner's linear design shows a burner very much hotter than mine; that way is the future.

I just stumbled across single wave envelope combustion with gas/air burners. In those days, experts swore that a neutral flame was the peak of success; I did too. Fortunately, over 30 years running oxy/fuel torches sent the alarm bell off in the back of my brain; loud enough to prevent what I 'new' to blind my eyes. A few minutes doing timed trials on both kinds of flame proved that what "everybody knew" was bunk!

So, why did this pack of "experts" hold an erroneous view about burner types for so long? Back when I was young, it was a well known fact that Fords would run with a lot less tuning then GM products, because GM motors tended to run perfect, or not at all. Linear burners are a lot more forgiving about flame variance than jet-ejectors, which tend to run right or horribly :D

It has taken decades to clearly see the answer to the blown-burner versus naturally aspirated tug-of-war, which is that how well they are built is of major importance, rather than which design we go with.

The point of all this? Learning the TRUTH about how wenches work allows us to use them for something better than hitting the other monkey...yes?

 

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 The point of all this? Learning the truth about how wenches work 

I've been married for 20 years and still haven't figured out how they work.

Slinking away to hide in case someone wants to hit me with one.

-B

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