Mikey98118

Burners 101

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3 hours ago, 671jungle said:

Inserting them into the mig tip will extend the jet orifice to the proper length. it will take some playing around with to realize positioning. 

Yes, and everything becomes a trade-off among ever tightening circumstances with small burners :)

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The simplest way is to use a round file of a little smaller diameter than the actual inside diameter of the pipe, which you can find listed in an online pipe chart.

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4 hours ago, 671jungle said:

Inserting them into the mig tip will extend the jet orifice to the proper length. 

Are you planning to use the EDM tube as an extension from the mig tip to the sweet spot jet position?  Somewhere around 1 to 2 inches in length from the looks of it.  I suspect that with tubing this small, as it's length increases, it's flow rate will decrease.  

You could increase the bore.  I have not had much success with this even with short lengths.  

I intend on using length to control the flow rate in a 1/4" burner but suspect it will end up being between 1/2" and 1" in length.

I silver brazed a short length of EDM tube into an 1/8" refrigeration access valve.  

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On 5/27/2019 at 8:37 PM, Mikey98118 said:

If you intend to build smaller burner later on, that could make sense. You could also fill the orifice of a MIG tip with solder, and drill out a smaller hole through a lot softer material. What works out easyest in the situation is what I recommended; that will depend on the tools you have available. 

All cylinder-mount Propane torches are exposed to full cylinder pressure; most of them modify flow with needle valves; this does NOT modify that pressure. Thus, their gas jets are designed to run at extremely high pressure. When we look to make end runs around limitations, we must use the techniques we find available.

Thanks, I went the solder route as I had that as well as a # 70 drill and pin vice. I held the drill bit with insulation from telephone wire.

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20 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

I intend on using length to control the flow rate in a 1/4" burner but suspect it will end up being between 1/2" and 1" in length.

I have tried orifice diameters from .018" to .023" and found .020" capillary tube at a little under 9/16" mounted in a MIG tip to work best. What we expect to see is one thing and what we end up finding works acceptably is another :)

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On 5/29/2019 at 6:40 PM, Another FrankenBurner said:

it's length increases, it's flow rate will decrease.

I also suspect this. If flow rate is decreased too much in experiment,  i could use 1/8" fridge tube to extend the "body" of the accelerator then tip it with the EDM? Hopefully keeping enough pressure all the way to the orifice. 

And the deviating from simple begins.

Thanks for all the input and advice.

gonna kick it into full gear once this forge (4th forge) is done.

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On 5/31/2019 at 3:13 PM, Another FrankenBurner said:

What is your intention?  Are you planning on building a small Mikey burner or trying to simplify construction or just tinkering?

All the above, but mostly simplifying the jet assembly. I would like it to be as solid as possible.

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I recommend learning to silver braze.  It does require learning a new skill and it requires purchasing the materials but it makes easy work of the assembly.  It is also useful in other parts of the build.  You could braze together copper lines for the supply or braze the assembly to a connecting fitting.  

In the standard size burners, I turn down the threads on a mig tip and braze into a 1/4 inch steel tube.  It is clean, efficient, and easy.  It could be done with a drill press, a file, and a torch.  Care must be taken to turn down the threads concentrically so the jet stays in alignment.  

In the small burner, I searched for a good fitting tube and brazed the a small length EDM tube in the end.  The refrigeration access valve is what I found which also conveniently terminates with a 1/4 inch male flare fitting which I used for the burner connection.

I use Lucas Milhaupt Silvaloy 450 filler and Harris Stay-Silv flux.  Both can currently be purchased on amazon for $30.

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1 hour ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

I recommend learning to silver braze.  It does require learning a new skill and it requires purchasing the materials but it makes easy work of the assembly.  It is also useful in other parts of the build.  

I agree. Brazing gives so many possibilities, and particularly silver brazing (incorrectly a.k.a. silver soldering) is great. Anyone with a descent size hand held propane burner can silver braze things of limited size using high silver content brazing rods, bronze brazing has similarities and the lower price is nice, but the higher working temperature requires a bigger torch that can bring the metal up to more like orange heat. Still easily done with most DIY torches discussed in this part of IFI, but hard to do with the small store bought hand held torches.

This burner was built almost exclusively by silver brazing (the mig tip was soft soldered in place, for easier removal if needed, everything else is 40% silver brazing rod). Not a pretty build, but most of it came out of a scrapheap...

 

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Is the idea of brazing rather than soldering that you benefit from the higher strength? Or the higher temperature capacity?

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They're actually the same thing, the different terminology comes from a time when bronze and lead were different enough to make distinguishing them important. 

Mixing silver and brass results in a eutectic alloy, melting temp and strengths depend on the % in any case the melting temp will be lower than the main component metals. 

Modern tin solders are much stronger than lead solder though they don't bond as easily. Tin solders bond to stainless a LOT better than most leads though I prefer a low temp silver solder on SS.

Anyway, all that said, don't get hung up on the terms braze vs. solder in this situation it'll just drive you nuts for no good reason. Use the silver solder and flux recommended by Dr Frankenburner, you'll be golden. For soldering up mig tips and such a bernzomatic soldering torch is plenty, use the fine tip if you have one.

Heck you could do it with an alcohol lamp and blow pipe if you had to but don't waste a bunch of time on that comment, it's just an aside. Hmmmm?

Frosty The Lucky.

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Thanks. I did order the flux and solder AFB recommended. I was trying to figure out the difference from my plumbing solder, which has silver (1-5% I think?).

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1 minute ago, jwmelvin said:

I was trying to figure out the difference from my plumbing

I understand ad any information is good information but just not now. I'm full of things I've learned, read, been told, etc. I'll never use though once in a while a couple seemingly unrelated tid bits link up into something useful. Once you have your burner working experiment with your plumbing solder and see how it works. Even if it doesn't do THIS job it might be perfect for something else. 

I have every single roll of solder I've ever bought in the shop, the one I plumbed the house with is on a shelf in the basement. I haven't had a lot of successes with the tin/silver solder other than with copper.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I soldered some brass fittings with plumbing solder and it has been working fine. But if another option is easier, I’m all for it. 

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The big reason I use the 45 silvaloy(silver solder) is the extra temperature.  The plumbing solder is probably mostly tin which has a melting point below 500°F.  The silvaloy melt point is 1370°F.  Some areas allow the use of braze joints on propane lines if the alloy melts above 1000°F.  I have never heard of soft solder being allowed.  Imagine a pressurized supply line letting go next to a fired forge.  I have used silvaloy in refrigeration systems running 400PSI at 200°F+.

Another reason I use it is because it is happy with steel, stainless, brass, and copper.  

It is not the only way to get things done.  When compared to soft soldering the process is about the same.  When I suggested silver brazing makes easy work of the orifice assembly, I was comparing it to mechanical connections.  

 

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Actually, a high quality tin/silver solder (which is only sold by the 16 oz roll) can end up costing more than buying silver braze alloy by the inch :o

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There are several types of low silver content solder (or "solder").

There's the tin with a few percent silver in, that's a soft solder with a relatively low melting point and somewhat limited strength - higher temp than lead/tin, but still low temperature in the world of melting metals.

There is also the phosphor-copper brazing rods for brazing copper pipes in plumbing, the phosphor content makes it "self-fluxing" on copper. Sometimes used w/o silver, sometimes a few percent silver is added to make it flow better into the joints.

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Phos/copper brazing alloy- (especially with some silver content) is great stuff, but cannot be used on ferrous metals. Aso, it needs a thorough cleaning afterward, becuase it melts at high enough temperatures to promote oxide build in copper alloys during brazing.

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Since we are talking about the orifice/jet/accelerator assembly, I will describe my favorite way to check for alignment.  It is not my idea, I read it somewhere, probably here.

When installed in the burner, pick up the entire burner, point it in the direction of light and sight down the bore of the mix tube.  It becomes immediately obvious when it is off.  When it is in alignment, you will see light through the orifice.  When it is not in alignment, you can swivel the burner around until you do see light through the orifice and it shows you how far off it is.  It works especially well for mig tips and other long orifices. 

alignment.thumb.jpg.d40011d00eb12e1356f4415b1e6b3348.jpg

As you see, this orifice is pointed towards the top right of the mix tube.  

When your wife comes out to the garage, sees you staring into your burner, assumes you are crazy and gets that smirk they get, just yell "Land ho" to seal the deal.

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I have successfully created a 1/4" in the configuration of earlier posts. pic of flame is before any tuning and with a raw coupling screwed on the end as a flare.

Did a little tuning today and it is stable throughout psi (1ish-20). no pics unfortunately. i will tonight. it is still a little rich, but i dont mind.

I plan on using two of these bottom mouted in this tiny Gallon sized Keg.

IMG-1658.JPG

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The flame may have a bare hint of green in it--or not. In any case, if it does, it is barely apparent, and probably not a problem. I have found 20 PSI to be the top of my pressure range with 1/4" Mikey burners, too.

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cleaning out the coupling(nozzle) produced a more pale blue color.

not sure if much more is needed. though it hasn't been in a forge yet.

this was extremely easy to build. The key ingredient is the edm tube for this 1/4" burner. Orifice-.015

IMG-1749.JPG

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